Are you a Spiritual Person?

jkhan

I do appreciate your long reply brother Fusion..

Let's seek guidance, for that let's rely on the Divine alone always..

Yes, 'Living Scripture' cannot be changed by anyone and for some people unfortunately Living scripture is the God.. No.. Yes, everything created by the Divine makes Him literally the Divine for the created beings.. Otherwise, we don't have any reason to call Him the Divine.. His creations proves He is God.. Isn't it? But nature, living scripture itself is not the Divine.. They won't succeed if they fall to that trap as well..

The important point is NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE LIVING SCRIPTURE.. But, Satan can change your LENS and how you see the nature.. If one doesn't see the nature through his own lens and instead see the living scripture though some other lens then it is not the LIVING SCRIPTURE anymore for him.. If we are indoctrinated by some theories and dictums then we see through a filter..
For example, if there is no HORIZON and the horizon never exists and still if we believe it exists just cus we are taught the Earth is bending or curving so that's why the Horizon exists then our lens is filtered.. Hope you get me.. Don't go deep to that rabbit hole.. Just an example. But living scripture has everything to learn, not only the shape of the Earth.. But hold your feet to the fire and zero in on so you will realize what is the Living Scripture is and significantly who is behind this is...
You can't have five fingers in the Living Scripture just randomly.. Living scripture is colossal and when one contemplates it, one can't go away from the Divine.. All ethics are inbuilt.. If you don't like pain in your body, then you can't give pain to others.. That's living scripture..
But, I read the Quran and even translates these days cus, I am absolutely convinced that this revelation is from the one who created the Living scripture in perfect design as it stands..

good logic

Peace jkhan, Fusion, All brothers and sisters.

All debates are becoming dead rubber and pointless in the majority of subjects and on the majority of platforms ..
There are facts that no one should deny ,but humans do anyway. and there are many other areas of doubt that will take to rabbit holes and illusionary worlds..
So what is the religion from our creator?
If one believes in a creator, then true belief can only mean doing what is required , heeding and obeying with total submission to the system of this creator. That is the only way one can benefit from this belief both in this life and elsewhere.
Can we be certain about this? i.e existence of a creator, His system and our role towards success and security in our life/s?
Again this should be clear , in a message from our creator ,is it?
For believers, that is the most important two questions to answer/try to answer. The answers are to be pondered by each individual . This is the responsibility given to every human to fulfill or ignore.

In other words , the religion of the humans from the creator is a personal relationship with the creator to accept the "Amana" and surrender their life to followings their creator s system.
Religion becomes a way of life in connection and relation to GOD Alone.
The believer can then be put to the test on their true convictions and the matter will concern GOD Alone and the believer.
Or one chooses to stay independent from the creator and follows their whims and choices..
Guidance and misguidance have criteria and the test by the creator will award the consequences of both.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

jkhan

Thank you, brother, for your interjection in this topic..

Yes, I concur with you that we need a revelations to recapitulate what the living scripture teaches us already.. Yes, one can certainly live a life ethically while concurring in the Divine without the Divine revelations.. But the Divine words are more influential and cogent than the Divine creations, i.e. Living Scripture.. If I present you with an analogy, it is like one is watching how hot chocolate milk is made daily while he never tastes it.. The moment he tastes he feels the difference.. Yes, we explore everything in the living scripture, but when you get confirmation in the revelation, it is the same as tasting the hot chocolate milk one kept observing daily.. But what if he is denied tasting the chocolate milk? Do you know what I mean? What if one cannot reach Al Quran in its pristine message? And how can one choose Al Quran while he doesn’t understand it, and even if he chooses the Quran, the message is definitely corrupted. He won’t get the cream and the essence of the message unless he spends most of his time with the Quran… Do people have time for this? Even the core message, wisdom, history, prophecies, hell and heaven, creations, stipulations, laws etc., all are corrupted in Arabic plus translations.. That’s why people like you and me are following the Quran alone, not the religion per se.. Still, we differ in certain perspectives.. Fine.. But, the majority cannot reach the Quran cus it is corrupted, though some other sources.. Thus, people are left with no choice other than to follow the scholars.. Well, they would have succeeded if they had remained with the living scripture in this scenario rather than banking on scholars.. They are accountable cus they did not use their lens..
So, how can they put a stake in the ground while they rely not in the Divine alone.. Even if we try to open their eyes, it is like water off a duck’s back.. They are deeply immersed in their respective religions, and they don’t care about a minority’s voice like us.. Who caused this pathological condition in these people? Neither the living scripture guided them nor the revelations.. Everything is moot.. They are protagonists of their creed and they root for it..
Could a living messenger/prophet have changed the scenario? Why did the Divine not continue with prophets always up until the end time, so all are warned, instead of looking at an ancient scripture.. Or are we also a legion of people who can be labelled under this phrase ‘Warn them or don’t warn them, they won’t believe’ or 'We sealed their hearts/thoughts'?
Are we warned? If YES, is it through the Quran that which majority of the populace have never read or the Living Scripture? Even those who had read did they understand it to claim they were warned?

good logic

Peace jkhan.

GOD knows that the big majority of the human will live from AD onwards. Hence the last scripture came at the right time to reach every corner of the earth.
No need for another scripture/message.
Add to that the internet now and the future and no one would be left in any doubt that GOD s message is doing the rounds around the world.
Do you think the word "Muslim" is not known in every country in our world? Then their "supposed " holy book will be too.
OK, so most Muslims give it lip service ,but GOD guides with it those that follow their instinct and will follow that by taking a deep look at the message.

GOD knows everything , This is a prophecy for the future generations:

When guidance/help comes from God, and opens -doors/hearts.
إِذا جاءَ نَصرُ اللَّهِ وَالفَتحُ
You will see the people embracing God's religion in multitudes/ throngs.
وَرَأَيتَ النّاسَ يَدخُلونَ فى دينِ اللَّهِ أَفواجًا
You shall glorify and praise your Lord, and implore Him for forgiveness. He is the Redeemer.
فَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ وَاستَغفِرهُ إِنَّهُ كانَ تَوّابًا

GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Well, I can't agree with you on this...
Yes everyone knows who Muslims are, either they are notoriously known as terrorists, or known as the people who procreate many children, or known as the religion of polygamy...
Yes, it is permeated and there is internet, but crux is do they know the truth of Al Quran.. Is the truth of Al Quran represented in Arabic to Arab world or the truth of the Al Quran pervaded to non-Arabs through translations.. Is the religion 'Islam' doing any justice to the message of the Divine?

What is available masses as you claim, do they know the truth? Or they know the falsehood and think it is the truth from the Divine?
I can't agree with you in this.. When I saw a Japanese man converted to so called religion of Islam and went to say the famous shahada and went all the way to Mecca and kiss the holy stone, i was looking at the sky and asking the Divine, 'Did you guide this man, My Lord' or he chose the misguidance?
Why I say Arabic Quran is corrupted cus it can only be reached by those who rebel and not for those who embrace the religion of Islam? Do you agree the dilemma going around?
Are we warned?

Fusion

Peace Jkhan, Good Logic,

I want to ask something in a straightforward way from a Quran based perspective. Since most here refer to the Quran as the primary source and I want to understand the general view regarding Makkah, Kaaba, Tawaf and Hajj. (With reference to what Jkhan mentioned about the Japanese man story).

Do we understand the current Makkah to be the same Makkah mentioned in the Quran, and the Kaaba there to be the same House raised by Ibrahim and his son? [I know there are heaps of articles but wanted to know general consensus among folks here at a high level]
And is the Tawaf in the Quran referring to circling that House? I am not asking about added cultural/Pagan elements that came later such as stoning rituals or other inherited practices. I am asking about the core acts themselves: Tawaf, Hajj and Umrah, as Quranic practices connected to the physical Sacred Sanctuary. I am asking sincerely and not referring to conspiracy theories or alternative locations. Just trying to understand the general Quran oriented consensus.

Also again regarding the point about the Japanese person declaring Shahada, I understood the idea that belief is not created by uttering a sentence. Faith is something internal. But at the same time, saying that Muhammad is a messenger of God is not something wrong. The Quran tells us clearly that we make no distinction between any of the messengers. So if someone recognizes the Quran as guidance, then it is natural that they would acknowledge the messenger through whom it was delivered. The issue only arises when Shahada becomes a membership procedure instead of a simple acknowledgment of truth that is already present in the heart. If someone says it sincerely it is just expression, not a ritual gate.

One more related point. Guidance is not owned by any one community. History shows that every nation has its time of being entrusted with responsibility. The communities we call Muslims today had their phase, but much of what remains now is identity without substance. The amana, the responsibility to live truthfully and justly, may shift to other peoples who live with sincerity, discipline and honesty. Guidance moves. It does not stay locked to one group forever.

And it does not matter whether a people belong to the Abrahamic line or not. Lineage means nothing. What matters is sincerity and clarity. If such peoples encounter the Quran without propaganda and without inherited baggage [which is what Jkhan talks about happening these days], they may recognize it and carry it more genuinely than those who simply inherited Islam as culture. Sometimes the ones who arrive at truth live it more deeply than those who inherit it by name. So in a way if the so called nations we assume Non-Muslims and they fulfil the concept of Amal Saleh, who knows God will turn their hearts into becoming True Muslims one day.

good logic

peace Fusion, jkhan..

Muslim according to Qoran is one who surrendered to GOD s way/ accepted GOD s message and lived loyal to /following only GOD and His message. i.e their way of life reflects only submission and loyalty to GOD Alone about their redemption/salvation.
Muslim according to Traditional Islam is the one who convert/adapts the religion of Traditional Islam.This word has been hijacked by Traditional Islam s system under human authority and mixed messages of humans. GOD s message takes a back seat and is hidden under tons of fabrications and laws created by humans..
GOD S Islam is a way of life connected to GOD Alone and under His sole authority . .
What i said in my post before this one is that GOD s guidance corrects this notion through His message to all sincere "Muslims to GOD Alone".
Those that are curious and study all religions of men then turn to GOD and seek His guidance will be corrected along their journey.
Look at how Qoran is now being studied by multitudes of people in all countries of different languages and races.. It is almost like it has just arrived to our generation and the future ones . .

GOD does the both the protection of His message and the preaching to those who seek Him for their redemption, according to His knowledge of each human on earth.

Brother Fusion.can you honestly not see a big contradiction in Saudi Arabia ?
Mekkah is now a focal point for making money and serving the elite . Going to Hajj has also been hijacked to fleece the people and serves those that are opposing GOD s way. Look what the leaders are doing with the money?
Hiring celebrities paying them millions and entertaining the elite , does this equate to what a focal point for the believers should be like?
Anyway, you get the gist of what Qoran is trying to teach about what GOD has set up as His only ,consistent religion, it is the opposite of what religions of men are teaching in their false religions.
GOD bless you both.
Peace.

jkhan

Yes, Brothers, GL and Fusion…
“Look at how Qoran is now being studied by multitudes of people in all countries of different languages and races..”
The above is your comment. I think you did not get the nucleus of the rubric here.. Do you mean to say by the above comment that there are people who SUBSCRIBE to the religion of Islam and then read Al Quran, or those who already SUBSCRIBED, so they read Al Quran since it is their religion by birth? What are the modalities through which they understand Al Quran? Does Al Quran act as a beacon on its own to everyone, or are people compelled to read an Arabic book? If someone subsumes that what Ibraheem built was the cube in Mecca by reading either the Arabic Al Quran or translations, where would that lead? I don’t know.. I consider it sheer Idol worship, which has nothing to do with Ibrahim or the Divine revelations.. Yes, it is my subjective take, but with objectivity… Cus, my understanding coupled with comprehensive research, never allows me to receive as 99% buy it.. It doesn’t dovetail with the living scripture.. What do Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Far Eastern and Western people have to do with this cube? Do you cogitate as if it is divine? A mere building ever decorated and modified with all the wealth they have, and all the rituals going on daily and yearly? Is this why Ibrahim is the foundation for mankind? Lol.. What an irony, Ibrahim was totally against his people and even against his father for the same reason.. But, now in Ibrahim’s name, these rituals are fabricated..
Brother GL, my concern is, do we need to subscribe to any religion? If yes, which religion and why? If not, then why should people around the world (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc) read the Quran as if they found something in it, while those who hold the claim of the book, could not even find the truth of it? Imagine, hypothetically, you were standing in front of Mohmed while he is reading the Quran to his community, yet you don’t understand a word? So, did the Divine communicate to you; did the Messenger communicate to you? No, neither the Divine nor the messenger did communicate to you.. Language matters.. Are we to depend on others for the sake of language.. Or are we to learn this language.. That’s unfair.. Cross reference, how Djinn Beings said when they heard Al Quran.. Man, they understood, even they understood Torah.. And they left to spread the true message and not the falsehood like we receive..
My take is we are not WARNED.. No caveat for us.. but we are accountable.. We can’t run away from anything.. Cus the Divine communicates silently to all people.. Perhaps, even if we are warned or not warned all the same.. We won’t concur in the Divine.. The Divine put a full stop with a reason.. No more messages and no more prophetic messengers.. If the ancient message is valid for us, then why not the message through a messenger/prophet in a language we speak? Even when the Quran was revealed, the entire world was oblivious of Al Quran, except those who received the message in that community who knew the language.. When the message of Al Quran was completed to that community, can we impulsively claim that, Chinese were warned by Al Quran? Did the Chinese even come to know that there was something called Al Quran that existed? Implausible..
Every revelation was a mercy to that unique community… Cus warning took place.. That’s so specific from the Divine.. If no warning took place, perhaps, they (every nation) are doomed naturally, cus the Divine knows their destiny, they will not believe, and their ancestors were warned for sure, even after the warning came to them, they planted the seed of disbelief that never changes, cus it is drip-feeding.. After the warning and destruction, they never came out of it, and even their descendants loved the way of their ancestors.. No more warnings to Chinese or Japanese or Koreans or anyone, yet they all were warned, thus descendants are inhered by it… The word of the Divine is confirmed on us (entire world).. Bereft of Messengers we are and rightly doomed we are for ages.. But, the significant point is, a very minute number of people are there on this earth, scattered, and they concur in the Divine through the living scripture, and for them the ancient scriptures would open the path cus they seek and they are flame keepers.. For the rest, neither the living scripture nor the ancient scriptures would guide them, though they reach ancient scriptures, they won’t get the guidance, except for misleading and inventions and religions, and sects....Yes even the living scripture misled them, cus they won’t use their own lens..
That’s my take.. If it doesn’t make sense, let me know why.. The Divine never created any religion; all religions are man-made..

good logic

Peace jkhan.
GOD created everything . GOD created a system for everything.
GOD s religion is acceptance of GOD s system here and obeying His rules and ruling.
That is Islam to GOD and His only religion to mankind. There are no other rulers. law makers or authority . He has not given authority for others to create religions nor should they claim so.

So, it is nothing to do with us what others choose, nor have any responsibility to any other human regarding their choices.
We pass on GOD s message raw. i.e we call to GOD Alone , give our take and we make clear to all those that are relying on anything beside GOD to teach/explain /show them... His way other than GOD Alone that this is "Shirk". GOD Alone is sufficient for every individual regarding redemption.
And those who want to choose other religions have their right of choices.
I am saying to you brother, GOD s message is addressing each individual personally. GOD is also giving each individual the freedom to choose.
I am not expecting anyone to understand what I understand, nor am I saying follow anyone. I am saying GOD is always there for anyone that ponders life, the universe and wants to dig deeper into their soul.
The instinct is there and GOD built it in all of us before He sent any scripture. And so are the distractions and false priorities that keep us busy to ignore/refuse this successful way of life.

Apart from that people can make what they want ,understand what they want and follow what they want.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Fusion

Peace GoodLogic brother,
Yes I understand your point and I think word “Muslim” has mostly become a label today. And I also see the contradiction you are pointing to, where Hajj and Makkah have taken on commercial and elite-driven elements which does not match the humility and sincerity described in the Quran.

At the same time I want to add something from personal experience. It is easy from the outside to stereotype what happens here, but living in here all my life, I can honestly say it is one of the safest and most stable places I have experienced. Not defending anyone just stating a reality on the ground. And the commercialization we see is from the global wealthy class of Muslims who fly business class every year doing Umrah as a status symbol. So it is a collective human issue, not simply locals vs outsiders.

My question, though, is simply this: regardless of what is happening politically or commercially, is the physical Kaaba and Masjid al-Haram still the same Sacred House mentioned in the Quran? And is the Tawaf around that House the same Tawaf that the Quran refers to?

Fusion

I wanted to hear others thoughts as well if possible.

Jkhan raised some serious points about language and the living scripture and If the Divine already communicates to every person through life conscience and creation then what is the role of the Quran ? Is it only confirmation for the ones who already see? Or do you see it as something that actually guides a person into that state?

We have already seen how Quran works in the lives of majority of millions of people who were not born into Arabic surroundings as if it produces robots who follow a fixed no of rituals not knowing the actual message being sent or asked to apply day in day out.

I want to also raise a theological question about the following verses:
11:119 “And I will fill Hell with jinn and humans altogether.”
7:179 We created for Hell many of jinn and humans.
They have hearts but do not understand, eyes but do not see, and ears but do not hear.”
32:13 “If We had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance.
But My Word is true: I will fill Hell with jinn and humans.”
6:116 “If you follow most people on earth, they will lead you away from the path of God.
They follow only assumption and guesses.”

So according to the above verses is it fair to say that Majority (not many) people will end up in hell????? (6:116 deduction).
So it is not that God wants the majority to go to Hell but that the majority choose no reflection on the Living Scripture nor make an effort to find the truth (had they done so would have understood the Quran as Good Logic points out what have become of the Muslim community...).
This essentially means Heaven is lot lot smaller than Hell in terms of its habitants??
Just trying to understand the balance folks.

jkhan

@good-logic

That is Islam to GOD and His only religion to mankind.

The above is your comment.. Yes, I have taken out of context from your statement.. But if one reads GL’s complete statement, it may make sense.. The problem here is the word ‘RELIGION’, and this word has massive issues with it.. This word itself is a human invention, and there is no Religion without rituals, and the Divine never commanded Islam as a religion.. Remember, ‘Islam’ is an Arabic word.. And it cannot stand both as ‘Islam and religion’… If one asks, ‘What is your religion?’ Islam.. And there is nothing like that from the Divine.. Nothing called ‘Islamic’.. A Muslim doesn’t follow ‘ISLAM’.. Yet, a Muslim is the one who assented or, as they generally state, ‘Submitted one’.. and Islam is ‘Assent’ or, as they say, ‘Submission’.. So, clearly, a Muslim is not someone who follows Islam. Get that right, people.. There is nothing called Islam to follow..
‘Path of the Divine’ i.e. 6:126 ‘Sirath RabbiKa Musthakeem’ is not a religion..(it literally means Path/Method of your Lord uniform) If it is a religion, the Divine would have worded it as ‘Religion’ and not as ‘Sirat’.. Meanwhile, ‘Millat’ is ‘Conviction’, typically of the type of Ibrahim experienced.. So, Divine always preaches a Uniform method/path that is totally tested with Ibrahim’s Conviction/Millat…

You can never find a dictionary meaning to the word ‘RELIGION’ that doesn’t incorporate ‘RITUALS’.. Religions involve rituals, and that’s not ‘Siratha RabbiKa Musthakeem’… His path is in-built, and the living scripture always guides if they seek.. Living scripture cannot guide with rituals cus it doesn't exist in the living scripture.. 'Sirath RabbiKa Mustakeem' is universal devoid of human infusions and rituals..

jkhan

@Fusion

Yes, word of the Divine confirmed over them/us... When Nova said, No one will believe after this, my Lord. it means no one.. How can Nova be so sure.. These type of verses are so deep in meaning.. For example when the Divine states, 'I seal their Qalb/Thought so they don't reason'.. So, if the Divine created us and gave us a platform to live, why seal the thought, why not let us live our life span, one could ask and may sound like a reasonable question.. But, they won't concur in the Divine.. That's the word of the Divine.. After Mohmed's time.. people are doomed, and no need for prophets and messengers for those scatter in small numbers who seek guidance, and the Divine will take care of them with the ancient scripture plus living scripture..

How long will this world last without revelations? Revelations mattered in the past, and messengers and prophets were raised and people were warned.. We don't need or it is deemed we don't believe.. If the Divine wants to warn a community, He won't tell that community, go and read the ancient books written in alien language.. That's not a warning.. After Mohmed the Divine, discarded, as the word of the Divine is done.. If you still trying to follow Al Quran alone, and if you are honest, you are so fortunate, you are among the millions, just one the Divine showing mercy..

Yes, Fusion, Jahannam will be filled, unfortunately... But it is not burning in literal fire as they painted.. But it is complete suffering where no one would feel life in it.. and it advances.. Even one be patient in it or not, all the same..

good logic

@Fusion said in Are you a Spiritual Person?:

My question, though, is simply this: regardless of what is happening politically or commercially, is the physical Kaaba and Masjid al-Haram still the same Sacred House mentioned in the Quran? And is the Tawaf around that House the same Tawaf that the Quran refers to?

I would ask another question ;
Was Jerusalem and its temple another focal point for the Jews?
What would a focal point do? How many Masjids, Churches, Synagogues exist around the world and could any of them play the same role?
If the believers choose a focal point now where will it be?
My answer to your question , in my opinion, is this:
"Wa likulli Ummatin Jaalna Mansakan Hum Naassikeeh"

Mekkah has been a focal point for the early believers. Then the enemies of the prophet took over and reverted back to how things were before the prophet- Traditional Islam took root-. i,e the focal point changed hands.
To me, GOD in His wisdom and knowledge has foreseen this and and left it at: Limani Istaaha Ilaihi Sabila"
My focal point now is my home and many other venues with those who share my basic "Sirat Al Mustaqueem and believe - in words and deeds - in the Creator.
Basically remembering GOD and commemorating Him is done in private and when I meet and study Qoran, discuss/converse with others that share my common GOD Alone way.
MY Salat , My Nussuk my life and my death all belong to GOD Alone.
I will be wasting my time and money if I joined other people who go to Mekkah and perform irrelevant traditions that I do not find in Qoran.
GOD is wherever we turn.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Fusion

Brother GL:
Do you still see the current Kaaba itself as the same Sacred House mentioned in the Quran even if the system around is corrupted as per your analysis?

Because for me the issue is not about whether to go right now or not. The issue is simply understanding what the Quran is referring to when it talks about “masjid al-haram” and “tawaf." and the historical context Quran talks about when Ibrahim build the house.

If the House itself is the same one then its sanctity does not disappear because of what people do around it. Meaning: the place is sacred but the people lost the meaning. However If the House is not the same, then that changes the whole foundation.

So I am only trying to understand which one you mean.

jkhan

Brother Fusion...
Keep it simple.. Ask the same question to yourself... Perhaps you will find answers through the Quran..

Let me shed some light through Al Quran for you to grasp.. My translations..

3:95 State! ‘The Divine has confirmed, so pursue—conviction of propensity of Ibrahim. While he was not among the ascribed ones.’
3:96 Indeed, a source of awakening laid down to the humans—as for the one in a state of lamentation; steadying as guidance to the identities.
3:97 In it, manifest lessons of Ibrahim’s stance—so whoever admitted it, became assured. And as for the Divine, upon the humans—Betake in the awakening, whoever abided unto its tenets. But whoever rejected, then the Divine is of relief from the identities.

Look brother...The Divine never built a physical building to guide people.. Physical structure won't guide anyone, and it will lead only to ascribing to the Divine ...

If you comprehend the above verses, you will never take any physical structure in your life.. But it all depend with the Divine guidance and your approach though..

First of all the Divine tested Ibrahim for a long time.. Ibrahim succeeded.. Mainly his CONVICTION of PROPENSITY (Millat Ibrahim Hanif) was so captivating.. He was unique.. Any human to emulate a character, none you find than the 'Conviction of Propensity of Ibrahim'.. It is an authenticated and tested by the Divine.. Then through Ibrahim's Propensity, the Divine worked out a System..
That is 'Source of Awakening' i.e. Awwal Bayt.. Awwal =Source, Bayt = Awakening.. Check deeply the root of Arabic in lexicon for verification..
So this 'Source of Awakening' is a salutary for those seeking guidance through Divine revelations..
Then if you read the self-explanatory verse 3:97 it is clear.. Neither Ibrahim nor any building guides others, what guides is the source of awakening the Divine figured out for people leading to convictions of propensity..

To further fortify, pls read below verses..

2:124 And when His Lord tried Ibrahim with directives then he accomplished them. He said that I am placing you for the humanity of a foundation, he said ‘Even from my offspring?’ He said, ‘Not aims my covenant of the erred ones.’
2:125 And when We made the awakening, a state of haven to the humans and an assurance while engaging from Ibrahim’s stance a point of connection. Further, We covenanted into Ibrahim and Ismaeel to distinctify my awakening to the disseminating ones, and the dedicated ones, while the persuading of the acknowledging.
2:126 And when stated Ibrahim, ‘Lord! Make this element secure and gratify its embraced ones with the yields, whoever concurred among them, in the Divine and the progressive of the episode.’ He said, ‘While whoever rejected, I let it facilitate a bit; subsequently, I afflict it into the harshness of humiliation and distress of the fate.
2:127 And when Ibrahim was promoting the outliving from the awakening, even Ismaeel, ‘Our Lord! Accept from us, verily you are the heeding of the revealing.
2:128 ‘Our Lord! as well make us assented ones to You, and from our offsprings a state of assenting community to You. Further, let us sense our ethicalities and orient ourselves. Indeed, You are the reorienting, the compassionate.
2:129 ‘Our Lord! And raise through them a dispatcher among them, educating upon them, Your explications and revealing them the ordainment and judgment while purifying them. Indeed You! You are the honor, the wise.’
2:130 And who is longing against convictions of Ibrahim except who has blundered, self of it? And, We had already refined him through the temporal, and he will surely be in the state of progressiveness to be among the reformed ones.
2:131 When said to him his Lord, ‘Assent!’ he said, ‘I have assented to Lord of the identities.’

Everything makes sense if you use your brain without any prejudice..

jkhan

3:85 And whoever desires outside the assent (Al Islam), a commitment (Deen), so it is never accepted from it, while it is, in the state of progressiveness, among the lost ones.

Such a powerful verse, yet only to those who grasp it..
Some have concerns as they question me.. let me clarify..
As I stated, ‘Muslims are not meant to follow ISLAM’, yet Muslims/Assented ones should follow the Path of their Lord that is uniform’.. Islam is not something (creed or set of laws or religion) that one has in it so that he follows Islam.. Al Islam is just ‘The Assent, or if you prefer, The Submission’… You can’t follow the submission..
So what is ‘ASSENTING to the Divine’? Ibrahim was asked by the Divine, ‘Aslam/Assent and Ibrahim said, “I have assented.”.. What is this Muslim/Assented one or the state of ‘The Assent/Al Islam’?.. It is a subjective agreement between a self and its Lord, the Divine, to assent to everything the Divine commands and never to assent to any other entity. It's a two way agreement.. It is not like the Divine exists and the Divine is one.. No.. The Divine exists, one knows, and that’s why he assents in the first place.. It is not ‘Aslama’.. If I present with an analogy, it is like you are bound to work only for ‘ABC’ company, and not for any other company under any circumstances… It is not like ‘ABC’ company exists, so you consent it..
So, the one who assented/aslama and became a Muslim/Assented one is self-bound to obey the Divine when the Divine commands/commanded.. So, he gradually enhances his life as a concurring one / Mumin cus he starts to follow the path of the Divine alone away from all associations..
Now, let’s look at the above verse..
What does outside the Assent mean? i.e ghairi Al Islam.
To perceive that, let’s see what ‘Deen’ is? DEEN = COMMITMENT.. Yes, people are committed in life.. Doing many things in life with commitment, be it in general life or ethical life, their respective religious rituals etc.. all positive commitment to life is futile if one has not assented to the Divine, i.e. The Divine, our Lord’s path alone.. Remember Muslim is not the same believing in the Divine and having commitment in life.. Nope.. There are many religious people who believe in the Divine, and they have a life commitment, but their path is not from the Divine; thus, they have not ‘ASSENTED’ … Assent or submit to the Divine doesn’t mean one believes in the Divine, note the contrast well.. for instance, Traditional Muslims, Jews and some Christians believe in the Divine, but they all have not ‘ASSENTED/Aslama’ to the Divine path, they have some other agenda.. They all are NOT MUSLIMS.. They have not done their foundation right.. When the foundation is faulty, nothing goes right.. cus the foundation of assenting is to agree with the Divine, that I am not going to take any other path except Yours…
That’s why the Divine asks this…

3:83 So, is it other than the Divine commitment, they crave…..

Now there are people who naturally first found out the existence of the Divine, like Ibrahim did, and then with that conviction of propensity, they assent to the Divine, i.e. to the path of the Divine alone.. They may not have read the Divine revelations, but all that they do matches with the Divine path, which is so inbuilt and so natural..
The one who doesn’t CONSCIENTIZE, the one who doesn’t read everything from ‘the Living Scripture’, will never find a way to the ancient Divine revelations which gives to him a sort of confirmation..

Yes, Islam is the fastest-growing religion on Earth, but their SUBSCRIPTION has no worth at all.. No one is considered Muslim who does not agree with the Divine subjectively to adhere to the Divine path alone.

Fusion

Thanks Jkhan and I understand your logic of taking these verses as symbolic and you see the house as sort of inner awakening rather than a physical building. I got that understanding and thank you for sharing.

My question now is How do we determine when a verse is symbolic and when it is literal?
I mean What is the principle that tells us to interpret these actions metaphorically instead of physically? and this is a question to all and folks I am not debating just trying to understand the method, because I want to be consistent in reading the Quran.

For example I have some further queries:
I used to read the very same verses quoted above in the background of:
If everything here is symbolic, then how do we understand:
raising foundations
purifying the House
people coming from distant lands
on foot and on camels
tawaf, standing, bowing, prostrating

All of these are physical verbs that describe movement and location.
Ref: 22:27
“And proclaim Hajj to the people.
They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, from every distant path.
I mean This is geographical, no??
You cannot come “on foot” or “on camels” to a symbolic concept.
You only do that to a place.
Appreciate your reply.

Edited:
There is another thread https://forum.free-minds.org/topic/24172/anti-aging-longevity-and-islam/19
Where its more or less the same concept- verse is clear mentioning the age of Noah yet multiple understandings.

jkhan

Yes.. Fusion..

The Divine guidance is spiritual and not physical guidance.. Look at the Quran to get spiritual guidance..

Regarding Haj..

Haj = Betaking..
Bayt = Awakening
Awwal = Source..
How can Ibrahim spread the message to wider communities around his location..
Yes.. Call/Summon them all who wish to attend to spread the message of Awakening laid down to them by the Divine..
So, they betake in a place where Ibrahim summoned and Ibrahim proclaimed it .. And from there onwards 'AWAKENING' the people took place.. Yes, upto prophet Mohmed this same procedure took place.. Let people Betake in the Awakening.. Unfortunately.. now it has become a ritual in some alien place.. This is an invention in the 7 or 8th century by people who did not know what Haj was in Quran and they supported with their own invention and incorporated with their cube..

good logic

Peace Fusion.
Qoran needs to benefit the believer. Hajj as described by GOD benefited the believers.
Today s Hajj has become something else and is not beneficial to the individual nor it is a place of GOD Alone anymore. It It has been hijacked by a different authority and religion.

How does one benefit from GOD s message?
I do myself a list of do s and don t s, each should take Qoran seriously to prioritise the list
For example ,there is a thread here with a proposed items from verses of Qoran:
What you should (and shouldn't) do according to the Qur'an.

Of course one checks and make the list according to their own study and understanding of the verses.
According to my understanding,today s Hajj to Saudi Arabia does not conform to what is in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.