Destiny and Free will

Fusion

I would like to refer to the verse 7164 and share the following thoughts and queries relevant to our times.

On the surface I see that The verse mentions a conversation among three groups of people

The Wrongdoers (Those who broke the Sabbath)

• These are the ones who transgressed the command.

• They tried to cheat the law and earned Allah’s punishment.

In other words this group can be “rejectors to Gods Message” or open sinners in our times.

The Silent Observers

• These people didn’t break the Sabbath, but also didn’t warn others.

• They said “Why are you preaching to people Allah will destroy?

Today, they represent those who see wrong but stay silent, thinking it’s useless to speak up.

The Preachers (Those who warned)

• They warned the wrongdoers anyway.

• They said “We do it to be free from blame before Allah, and perhaps they may fear Him.”

If we look at today’s world among Muslims and the wider global scene; who do you think these three groups represent?
Who are the warner's today?
Who are the ones quietly watching?
And who are the ones clearly transgressing?

In today’s world, the lines feel blurry. Even if someone knows the truth and wants to speak up, it often creates enormous social backlash especially because so much harm has already been done in the name of God/Religion (especially the so called followers of Quran or often labelled as Muhammadans)

That makes me wonder can a sincere truth-speaker today even be part of that 3rd group? Or would they be crushed by the complexity and fear of modern society?

I sometimes feel like the world is moving toward a future where, maybe 500 years from now, no divine law or scripture will survive ; only a man-made system will remain. A human-style code will dominate, with two global classes the elite and the powerless, separated not by walls, but by systems we can’t escape.

What do you think? Who do you feel is who today, based on that verse and is there even room left for the warners'?

Emre_1974tr

I would like to refer to the verse 7164 and share the following thoughts and queries relevant to our times.

On the surface I see that The verse mentions a conversation among three groups of people

Hello Fusion; there is always room for those who warn. The condition and situation are actually always the same; as is necessary in this world of test/trial, there is always risk and anxiety. In the past, some who warned experienced difficulties, and they will continue to do so in the present day. Those who fear pressure, bow down to evil and lose. In this world of test/trial, every age has its own unique ease and difficulties, and overall, the situation is the same. In fact, those living in the modern age are luckier. You can tell the truth to the four corners of the world while eating your chocolate cake and sipping your lemonade in front of the internet.

Emre_1974tr

God knows what will happen in the future and what a person deserves, even before creating them.

345 And the angels said "O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close."

Emre_1974tr

293 Yea, indeed, We did test those who lived before them; and so, most certainly will God mark out those who prove themselves true, and most certainly will He mark out those who are lying.

4731 And We will test you for We know those who strive among you and those who are patient. And We will bring out your qualities.

Fusion

293 Yea, indeed, We did test those who lived before them; and so, most certainly will God mark out those who prove themselves true, and most certainly will He mark out those who are lying.

4731 And We will test you for We know those who strive among you and those who are patient. And We will bring out your qualities.

Emre you have brought up two very important verses here. The idea of God testing people has often sparked debate whereby some take the wording literally and assume it means God needs to find out who is truly on the straight path. But this overlooks the deeper meaning. As many eventually realize, God is not time-bound like we are and He already knows the past, present, and future.

I especially appreciated the emphasis you placed (I have bolded that part in your reply) as it points to the real purpose of these tests to reveal, not inform. Well put.

Essentially
The purpose is not for God to gain knowledge (He already knows all things in His eternal knowledge) but rather to manifest or expose people’s true inner qualities in action )truthfulness, patience, hypocrisy, etc.) while this exposure is both for themselves and for others (public) which is to separate the genuine from the false.

In the end such tests Elevate the sincere giving them opportunities to rise in rank by showing trust patience, and effort.

This is echoed in 2155-157
"And We will surely test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives, and fruits but give good tidings to the patient..."

Emre_1974tr

Emre you have brought up two very important verses here. The idea of God testing people has often sparked debate whereby some take the wording literally and assume it means God needs to find out who is truly on the straight path. But this overlooks the deeper meaning. As many eventually realize, God is not time-bound like we are and He already knows the past, present, and future.

I especially appreciated the emphasis you placed (I have bolded that part in your reply) as it points to the real purpose of these tests to reveal, not inform. Well put.

Essentially
The purpose is not for God to gain knowledge (He already knows all things in His eternal knowledge) but rather to manifest or expose people’s true inner qualities in action )truthfulness, patience, hypocrisy, etc.) while this exposure is both for themselves and for others (public) which is to separate the genuine from the false.

In the end such tests Elevate the sincere giving them opportunities to rise in rank by showing trust patience, and effort.

This is echoed in 2155-157
"And We will surely test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives, and fruits but give good tidings to the patient..."

Yes, dear Fusion. When read the Book in its entirety, everything becomes very clear.

Emre_1974tr

God knows what will happen in the future

4811 The Nomads who lagged behind will say to you "We were preoccupied with our money and our family, so ask forgiveness for us." They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say "Who then would possess any power for you against God if He wanted harm to afflict you or if He wanted benefit for you?" No, God is fully Aware of everything you do.

4815 Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils "Let us follow you!" They want to change the words of God. Say "You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand." They will then say "No, you are envious of us." Alas, they rarely understood anything.

4816 Say to those Nomads who lagged behind "You will be called on to fight a people who are very powerful in warfare, unless they surrender. Then if you obey, God will grant you a good reward, but if you turn away as you turned away before, He will punish you with a painful retribution."

Emre_1974tr

11:36 And it was inspired to Noah: "No more of your people will believe except those who have already believed. So do not be saddened by what they have done."

Fusion

Emre what I am taking from the verses you quoted is mainly God knows what will happen in the future and He knows what’s in people’s hearts .
He can state outcomes ahead of time and events later unfold accordingly.

Just to make sure I am following: are you using these verses to argue only for divine foreknowledge (God knows in advance what people will choose), or are you also implying a stronger point about divine decree determining the choices themselves? [because the verses show prior knowledge clearly but I want to understand what exact conclusion you are drawing about free will (which to me also operates under Gods will).

Emre_1974tr

Hello Fusion. What I am currently doing is repeatedly demonstrating that Allah knows the future. Because nowadays, a portion of Quranist Muslims claim that Allah does not know the future. Unfortunately, such a sub-sect is emerging. As for our will: as I explained in my writing, we absolutely possess free will.

Fusion

Many thanks, Emre. I truly value your posts, and I believe the purpose of all of us participating here is to share our perspectives, learn from one another, and grow.

I want to approach this from a slightly deeper angle not as a counter argument Emre, but as a reflection I personally struggle with.

If we accept the Quranic description of God as Absolute, the One who created time, space, causality, and the unfolding of history, then future is a category that belongs to us, not to Him. For us, the future is unknown because we move within time. But if Allah is the Creator of time, then all temporal sequence is already encompassed within His creative act. In that sense, saying that God knows the future is almost a human accommodation. His knowledge cannot be like ours. We acquire knowledge. He does not acquire anything. He does not wait to discover. His knowledge must be intrinsic, not observational.

Yet the Quran uses language of testing, watching, waiting, and statements such as so that Allah may know. It speaks of forgiveness if He wills, of witnessing what people will do, and even of waiting. There are verses that say, we are waiting with you. There are verses that describe detailed future conversations between the people of Paradise and the people of Hell. When I read such verses, I sometimes find myself privately reflecting and even asking God in my heart: why is there a need to phrase it this way? Why say that You know the unseen of the heavens and the earth? Why say that You know what is inside the hearts? Why speak of waiting or watching? If You are the Creator of the entire system, then nothing stands outside of You as an object of discovery. Knowledge, in the human sense, implies that something external exists and then is known. But if God authored the whole framework of existence, then His knowledge cannot be external or reactive. It must be intrinsic to His being as Creator. So when the Quran repeatedly says that He knows what is hidden, knows what is behind seen (unseen), knows what is inside hearts, part of me reflects that of course He does, because He created the entire structure in which those realities exist.

The only conclusion I reach is that this is relational language, addressed to human beings operating within limitation. For the majority of humanity across history, especially before the modern age, saying that God knows the unseen establishes His supremacy over idols and human ignorance. It affirms that nothing escapes Him. But for someone living in a time of complex systems thinking and advanced knowledge structures, the expression feels different. If someone creates an entire system, he does not say I will know what is inside it as though that knowledge is an additional power. It is inherent in authorship.

Yet here I must also admit something deeper. I do not have a fully rational explanation for how God exists without beginning or end. I cannot logically comprehend how something can be Al Awwal and Al Akhir, without origin and without termination. I accept this as faith. No matter how much philosophy one studies, the eternal existence of God ultimately rests on belief. It is not empirically demonstrable. In that sense, my acceptance of divine eternality is an act of faith.

Similarly, once I accept that God created time itself, then I must accept that what we call future is already encompassed in His creative act. Foreknowledge then is not prediction. It is total comprehension of what He brought into existence.

This leads me to the question of free will. I do not personally subscribe to the idea of absolute free will in a divine sense. Absolute will belongs only to God. If human will were absolute in that sense, it would be independent of Him, and that would contradict tawheed. Our will is real, but it is contingent. It operates within boundaries we did not choose. For example, None of us chose our ethnicity, our parents, our social class, our intelligence level, our health, or the belief environment into which we were born. Some are born blind. Some are born into poverty. Some are born into idol worshipping societies. Others are born into stable and educated environments. These starting conditions are not our will. They are part of divine decree. Therefore, when the Quran speaks of testing, I understand it not as God discovering something unknown, but as establishing hujjah against us. The test unfolds so that we ourselves cannot claim injustice. We are given sufficient moral awareness and capacity within our specific framework. Accountability must correspond to capacity. If you want to call that Free will that should be fine.

When a poor person looks at a wealthy person and questions why he was placed in deprivation, that question itself becomes part of the test. The inequality of conditions is woven into the structure of life. Divine justice means that responsibility aligns with what each individual was given.

So when I speak of free will, I mean real human agency within divinely created limits. It is not independence from God. It is contingent freedom. It is the ability to navigate the moral landscape we were placed into. If someone calls that absolute free will, then it must be understood as absolute only within the human frame, not in the metaphysical sense.

In the end, I reconcile these reflections by accepting that divine language in the Quran addresses human understanding. When it says that God knows the unseen, it is not describing a process of discovery. It is affirming His absolute authorship over reality. When it speaks of testing or waiting, it is not about God learning. It is about us standing without excuse.

These are reflections I continue to think about. They are not objections, but attempts to understand how divine transcendence and human accountability coexist.

good logic

So, brother Fusion. Everyone has a starting point for their test. The rich,poor .disabled,...etc
From that point on and unto the rest of our life we are accountable for our way of life. i.e from our age of responsibility. baring in mind some never reach this cap- Severely disabled, handicapped mentally,... We begin the test.
GOD says we return as individuals for the judgement. Once aware of our capacity,situation and environment,,there is nothing that we can do to change that, so we concentrate on our present and onwards.
Accepting our starting point and moving on from there is part of our submission to the Creator.
Freedom to lead our way of life from the starting point is the "Amana".
We can conform to systems or rebel. We can submit to the Creator of refuse to....
Freedom of choice is the way we decide and choose to lead our adulthood/responsibility in life.
We choose our friends ,our food, our relationships,our work,even change our place ,tradition,...etc.
That is what I would define freedom of choice for us.
As for our Creator ,there is nothing that applies to Him or restrict His ways. He always existed/will exist as complete,all knowledgeable and omnipresent. Everything created was meticulously planned and executed.
He has the video tape of all that happened, happens or will happen.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Fusion

@good-logic said in Destiny and Free will:

As for our Creator ,there is nothing that applies to Him or restrict His ways. He always existed/will exist as complete,all knowledgeable and omnipresent. Everything created was meticulously planned and executed.
He has the video tape of all that happened, happens or will happen.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Thank you Good logic for taking the time and appreciate your explanation.
However, when you say everything was meticulously planned and already exists like a recorded video, that sounds like the entire script is fixed in detail. If that is the case, then what exactly is the nature of our choice? Are we truly deciding between alternatives, or are we simply unfolding what was already written in full detail?
I am not questioning divine knowledge. I am trying to understand how complete pre-planning and genuine responsibility coexist without collapsing into determinism.

I also want to say that expressions such as “meticulously planned” and “already existing like a complete recording” are often used in faith language, and I understand their devotional intent. My question is whether this description is explicitly grounded in specific Quranic wording, or whether it is a theological way of expressing divine omniscience. I am asking this not to challenge belief, but to clarify the distinction between what the text states and how we articulate it in faith language.

good logic

Peace Fusion.
What is "Laisa Kamithlihi Chaiun" ?
i.e Cannot be defined or understood completely or imagined.
From what we know GOD has no limits,time restraints or any incapability. He has full knowledge of time, space and creations and everything that exist.
So by that definition GOD knows the past ,present and future.. Is that not the "video tape" of all human life from beginning to end?
Qoran is talking to humans, from our perspective , so that we may grasp what GOD is saying to us and according to our limited knowledge.
Therefore ,as far as we are concerned, we have free will to serve our time here and we become our own judge and jury when we see more evidence at GOD s.
GOD s message is our saviour and guide as a mercy from Him to those who choose right.
As far as GOD is concerned everything is known already and settled.
"Atta Amru Allah Fala Tastajiluh" GOD s command/plan has come/been settled, do not be in a hurry to see it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Emre_1974tr

Just as God is physically distinct from His servants—having created them from nothing—He has likewise created their selves and wills as distinct from His own. That is, He created them ex nihilo; therefore, we possess free will. However, humans are naturally limited by the program God has designed. Consider modern Chess or Go programs. New-generation chess engines are merely provided with the rules of the game, and they learn everything else independently. For instance, a program plays millions of matches against itself to develop its own unique playing style, formations, systems, tactics, and strategies. They are completely free within the realm of chess; even their developers cannot fully comprehend how they play. Yet, these programs have a limit: they can only play chess. They cannot play backgammon. Humans possess similar boundaries; we are completely free within the domain we were created for, but we are never limitless like God. We are entirely separate from God in both being and will—created from nothing—yet our freedom operates within the parameters of our programming.

By the way, regarding the knowledge of the future: for Allah, there is no distinction between the past and the future. He is timeless, meaning He exists outside of time. Therefore, nothing happens 'later' or sequentially for Him. Events have already occurred and, simultaneously, have not occurred. This is a state that is beyond our imagination. Allah does not travel through time or space. He does not learn anything after the fact; He simply knows

Fusion

Ramadan Kareem to all.
@good-logic I understand the distinction you are making. Maybe the difficulty comes from the fact that we are trying to describe something that does not really fit into our human categories of time and sequence. If God is beyond time then “settled” from His side does not automatically mean “compelled” from ours. Perhaps the tension only appears because we are applying time based logic to a reality that is not time bound. From our lived experience, responsibility is real, even if the deeper structure behind it is beyond our full comprehension.

As for “Laysa kamithlihi shay’,” I agree it clearly affirms His uniqueness. But in the full context of 42:11, the verse is speaking about His creative power and authority. I do not see it as shutting down reflection on how divine knowledge and human responsibility work together. Saying nothing is like Him establishes that He cannot be compared to creation. It does not mean we cannot think carefully about how decree and choice relate. It only means that whatever explanation we reach, it cannot reduce Him to human limitations.

Fusion

@Emre_1974tr Thank you for the clarification and it makes more sense to it and I appreciate the way you explained the distinction and the analogy. It helps frame the discussion more clearly. I will reflect further on the boundaries aspect and the timelessness point.

Fusion

If I may continue this reflection, I find the opening verses of Ch: 2:3–20 very relevant here. In 2:3 it says:

“Those who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.”

Belief in the unseen is placed at the foundation. But when I reflect on this, the unseen does not necessarily mean blind belief in something irrational. It can mean realities that are not immediately visible but become comprehensible through reflection on revelation and history.

Then in 2:4 it says:

“And who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.”

This verse raises an important rational question. If earlier revelations were altered over time, how can one believe in what was revealed before? One way to understand this is that belief is not in the altered historical forms, but in the continuity of divine guidance i.e. the underlying message that whenever God’s plan was followed, constructive social order emerged. In that sense, belief is grounded not in blind tradition, but in historical pattern and moral law.

Verse 2:5 then says:

“Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is they who are successful.”

Guidance here seems tied to alignment with a structured moral system. It is not arbitrary favoritism.

Later in 2:20 we read:

“If Allah had willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.”

This is significant. It affirms divine power to override human faculties, yet He does not arbitrarily remove them. Human perception, reasoning, and choice remain operative. That suggests that while God is fully capable of compulsion, He allows responsibility to function within the framework He has established. (I think this is what Emre pointed in his last reply)

When read together, these verses reinforce a picture of a law-governed universe. Belief in the unseen includes trust in a moral structure that may not be fully visible at the moment. Belief in prior revelation includes recognition of a consistent divine pattern across history. And divine omnipotence does not cancel human discretion; it frames it.

In that light, divine knowledge need not imply micromanaged determinism. It can mean complete authorship of a coherent system in which freedom operates meaningfully within boundaries. Accountability corresponds to capacity, and consequences unfold according to established law rather than arbitrary intervention. (ref: Emre post)

These reflections help me see belief in the unseen not as blind acceptance, but as confidence in a structured moral reality that transcends immediate perception.