=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=

TAJ

Salaams MMKhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaams brother Taj,

"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni"
Is this wrong gramatically?

It is not wrong. You can read it as Arjulakum or Arjulikum, .

MMKhan I really can't see the connection between the grammar here and the title of this thread. Can you please tell me why do you see that the difference between Al Quran and Al Kitab is something that has to do with grammar?

Sorry brother, I think you misunderstood. We were discussing something on the Al-Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer.

I can't get you, Khan! You say that you "were discussing something on the Al Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer." !!
I find that absurd! If you are discussing something written then grammar should be considered, shouldn't it? How would you disregard grammar if you are discussing written (or read) sentences whether they are Ayat or not?

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Both are grammatically right. You can write (and read) the words in both ways, either Arjulakum or Arjulikum. Both are grammatically correct. Maybe the reason you would only find one of them instead of the other in the written Quran is because religion authorities must have decided to settle on one way of writing/printing this Ayah, to avoid confusion (among non-Arabs) maybe, that's all.

And I am a woman.

mmkhan

salams all,

Wa Alaikum Salaam brother Shuaib,

There is a difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan.

It can be seen from the following verses

"Thaalika AL-KITAABU laa raiyba feehi, hudan-LILMUTTAQEEN" 22

"Shahru Ramadhaanal-lazee unzila feehi AL-QURAANU hudan-LIN-NAAS" 2185

Al-Kitaab is a guidance for Muttaqeen
Al-Quraan is a guidance for Naas

This both cannot be the same.

You need to look more carefully at the beginning of surah 2. There are 2 groups of people, muttaqeen (those people who wish to save themselves from the various thorns in their path) and those who are not (kuffar). People who are not muttaqeen means people who do not care to save themselves from the various thorns their paths may encounter. They don't care if the path they have taken will lead them straight off of a cliff. They are more interested in immediate joys and immediate rewards, rather than their future rewards/punishments. The Quran says about these people, it is the same whether you warn them or not! And that makes sense, since obviously, if the Quran is meant for those who WANT to protect their future, it will be wasted on someone who does not truly care about their future!

But still, it says "guidance for Muttaqeen"

In that verse, it does not say that this book is not for them. It says it makes no difference whether you warn them or not. But, of course this book and this religion has been sent for the guidance of humanity as a whole.

Does this really matter if it does not say that it is not for them?

And it is not this book brother, it is that book.

" "
"A.L.M, that is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

" "
"And We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion!" 1741

if you read it (Al-Quraan), you may not get the explaination. But if you look at the writing (Al-Kitaab) you will surely get the explaination how it is refering to washing.

I dont know if you're being serious here. Are you saying al-kitaab is inaccessible then, to the blind person or visually impaired?? This distinction you are making is purely artificial and superficial and is not substantiated in the roots. If your knowledge of Arabic is deep, you can interpret verses just by hearing them... there is nothing magical about seeing it in writing with your eyes.

You might be right brother. But please look at the 56 that we are discussing on above.

kitaab is a general word but is very often used to refer to the Quran. The context lets us know what the usage is, and in 22, it refers to the Quran.
413 is another good example.

Where did you get "is often used to refer to the Quran"? If so, then what means

" "

"Those are the ones to whom We have given the book, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it." 689

The book (singular) is given to all the Prophets. From your understand Al-Quraan is given to all the Prophets?

May Allah guide us all towards the truth.

Regards,

MMKhan

mmkhan

Salaams MMKhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaams Taj,

I can't get you, Khan! You say that you "were discussing something on the Al Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer." !!
I find that absurd! If you are discussing something written then grammar should be considered, shouldn't it? How would you disregard grammar if you are discussing written (or read) sentences whether they are Ayat or not?

Yes you are right. But ... I don't mean this. anyways... that is not important to discuss this I think. Because I agree with what you said.

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Both are grammatically right. You can write (and read) the words in both ways, either Arjulakum or Arjulikum. Both are grammatically correct. Maybe the reason you would only find one of them instead of the other in the written Quran is because religion authorities must have decided to settle on one way of writing/printing this Ayah, to avoid confusion (among non-Arabs) maybe, that's all.

religion authorities?

What I understand is everything word by word has been send from Allah. No religion authorities interfearance allowed. But Allah is the one who made it easy for non-Arabs.

It is not simply that to avoid confusion it might have written. No, but there are specific patterns or forms on which all the ayats / signs / verses has been designed.

Like if you take a closer look at 56 that we are discussing on. If

"Arjulakum" is used, it is refering to washing of legs. Or else if
"Arjulikum" is used, it would refer to wiping of legs. As per the pattern of that verse.

Please follow the discussion from the beginning for more details.

And I am a woman.

Sorry sister

Regards,

MMKhan

TAJ

Salaam Khan,

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Both are grammatically right. You can write (and read) the words in both ways, either Arjulakum or Arjulikum. Both are grammatically correct. Maybe the reason you would only find one of them instead of the other in the written Quran is because religion authorities must have decided to settle on one way of writing/printing this Ayah, to avoid confusion (among non-Arabs) maybe, that's all.

What I understand is everything word by word has been send from Allah. No religion authorities interfearance allowed. But Allah is the one who made it easy for non-Arabs.

It is not simply that to avoid confusion it might have written. No, but there are specific patterns or forms on which all the ayats / signs / verses has been designed.

Like if you take a closer look at 56 that we are discussing on. If

"Arjulakum" is used, it is refering to washing of legs. Or else if
"Arjulikum" is used, it would refer to wiping of legs. As per the pattern of that verse.

The Quran can be read and written in many ways. Have you not heard of the famous Seven Readings?

Anyway, regarding Arjulakum and Arjulikum, both call for wiping and not washing, because the word appear in another sentence following the one concerning washing the faces and hands-till-elbows.

TAJ

Salaams PB,

2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?
The term used for fully detalied in the above ayat is...fussalna fully detalied. Are you claiming that fussalna in the above ayat, means something other than fully detailed?

(52

And that WE had come to them with a Law We had perfectly designed based on knowledge (so that it would be) Hudan and mercy for people who believe.

A Law the whole universe is created by. But who would recognize the Huda and the Mercy in that Law except people who believe.
I don't see that the Kitaab here is referring to the Quran (the 114 Suras). What I see that it is in the Quran that Allah speaks about that Kitaab about that Law of Creation.

This is what I understand now from . I need to study it further but I would like to see your comment.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Simply as you said "Quraan" means "Reading". It may refer to any book or paragraph or sentence, etc.. But when "Al" is added to it then it will become "The Reading" that is refering only to Al-Quraan that is in Arabic language, sent for the mankind for guidance from Allah.

Yes, anything that is read is a reading(quran), but AL QURAN is THE READING, which is the God's Book, which He created with "Be" and it becomes. Sometimes we see THIS reading which can refer to the written pages.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

Peace be upon you PB,

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?

Yes, because it says "Book" not "reading". Knowledge is that which is based on a solid foundation, as the universe certainly is created on solid LAWS. And it is the Universe(Al kitaab) that is explained in detail by the reading(quran).

Main Entry KATABA to write transcibe inscribe Book writing Scripture written revelation.

Given the above definition then, Al-Kitab, while referring to the Creation, also refers to Al-Quran itself, in that, it is scripture/written revelation. Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar pg. 478.

A. According to your understanding then, the following ayats are not referring to Al-Quran, but the Universe.

22 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

378 Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah and they know it.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Did Allah send/reveal the Universe to the Messenger or did He reveal Al-Kitab-Al-Quran to the Messenger?

181 Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no crookedness

Again...did Allah send/reveal the Universe to the Messenger or did He reveal Al-Kitab-Al-Quran to the Messenger?

456 These are the Ayats of Allah, which We rehearse to you in Truth; then in what HADITH will they believe after Allah and His AYATS?

The ayats in the above ayat, are they the Universe, Al-Quran or both?

B. Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Al-Kitab?

C. If you maintain that, Al-Kitab is not Al-Quran, is Al-Quran, then, fully detailed, in that, as it must be part of Al-Kitab which is fully detailed?

413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

This verse states that the SIGNS (not verses) of the BOOK(universe) are explained in detail by this ARABIC reading. It is the universe that is fully detailed. This arabic reading is a guide, one of the best guides.

While I agree that AYATS is written in the above ayat , nonetheless, Allah, while referring to the natural phenomena as ayats, His Kitab Al-Quran, goes into many other areas which are absolutely pertinent to one's guidance. For example, looking at the Universe, is not going to explain the laws of inheritance. If the ayats, that is the Creation as a whole and its parts, was sufficient as guidance ( guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life (not doing shirk) 2185 & 649, so that, one may pass the test of conduct 187, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise 649, thus, obivating any need for extra-Quranic sources i.e. sunnah and hadith, for one's guidance. ), then there would have been no need for Messengers and Kitabs/Readings.

Looking forward to your reply.

unknownuser

PEACE, TAJ and SHUAIB,

SHUAIB it essentially means to delineate between 2 different things, clarify etc. as a corollary to that, it can also mean cut into 2.

Both you and Taj, understand fassalna to mean delineate. Let's look at the definition of this term

Main Entry DELINEATE to set forth with accuracy or in detail.

Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specifically.

Given the above definitions, Omar, is not at all off on the definition of fassalna/fussilat. Let me ask you this, do you agree that when Allah created the Creation/Universe, that He delineated/detailed it perfectly, meaning that, He left nothing out of it? I must assume that you will answer in the affirmative, hence, how could He have not done the same when He created Al-Quran?

TAJ Ok, but! Where did Abdul Mannan Omar get his information from? Those classical Arabic-Arabicdictionaries I mentioned Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6 and some others, which are not found in the internet, are really the main source for teh Quranic Arabic. They contain the old Arabic and no modern dictionary can do without them. Yes, sometimes the information in those old books might just shock you because their meanings might not match modern meanings!! I will give you an example

From what I can ascertain, he used the one's you mention and a whole lot more. I don't know how to scan, but perhaps Shuaib, if he has Omar's Dict., might scan pgs 46-48. These pages list his resources.

TAJ Can you see, PB, that a simple small word being mistranslated could collapse the whole theory of code 19?

I do not believe in code 19.

shuaib

salams mmkhan,

But still, it says "guidance for Muttaqeen"

Saying that something IS for something does not automatically mean EXCLUSIVELY for something. If tires are for a car, it does not mean tires are ONLY for cars and are not used for anything else!

And it is not this book brother, it is that book.

" "
"A.L.M, that is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

" "
"And We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion!" 1741

Well, according to some Arabic scholars, thaalika in this sense is referring to "this" book. I dont really understand the finer points about those particular grammatical rules... but given the context, we must deduce that the Quran is being referred to here.

The book (singular) is given to all the Prophets. From your understand Al-Quraan is given to all the Prophets?

Why dont you go back and read my email carefully. My last statement was that kitaab is a general term that is often used for Quran. Often means not always. 689 is an example where kitaab refers to ALL revealed books including the Quran. 413 is an example where kitaab refers specifically to the Quran.

Where did you get "is often used to refer to the Quran"? If so, then what means

I quoted you a verse, 413. Did you check it?

You might be right brother. But please look at the 56 that we are discussing on above.

I know you are discussing it, but it is irrelevant to the discussion. Like I said, even grammatical analysis of the Quran does NOT need writing. It can be done by hearing as well, for someone who is learned in Arabic.

I dont know how well you know Arabic, but the argument you have put forward is truly invalid. I won't go into this in detail now since it's irrelevant anyway. Suffice it to say that your delineation of words into majroor and mansoob and using that fact to attach it to a particular verb, is grammatically wrong.

shuaib

salam PB

Actually, that's the whole problem with translation, and the English language in general.

Out of my post, you decided to pick the word delineate and expound on that... that is the whole problem! There IS no equivalent one word translation (often times), or at least you lose some meaning in attempting a one-word translation.

Delineate BETWEEN 2 things is the key phrase... but to take just the word delineate, then extrapolate from that the meaning detail... and to extrapole from detail the meaning specifics, facts, etc (as you mentioned) ... and then to base interpretations on THAT basis... you start getting farther and farther and farther from the source.

Stick to the essence of the roots. The essence of fasala is something that separates 2 things.. and in the chaos that is this world, that capability allows one to bring order. To clarify a mess by separating it into its constituents.

Remember, the Quran does NOT have all the details within it. There are many items that are detailed, but many that are left open ended for the Muslim ummah to decide upon with the changing needs of their times. That is why it is wrong to take the meaning detailed. It's better to take the meanings clarified or distinct.

unknownuser

PEACE, SHUAIB,

Actually, that's the whole problem with translation, and the English language in general. Out of my post, you decided to pick the word delineate and expound on that... that is the whole problem! There IS no equivalent one word translation (often times), or at least you lose some meaning in attempting a one-word translation.

In your explanation of the term fassalna/fussliat, you chose the English term--delineated to sum up your understanding of fassalan/fussilat, I simply showed that, it too, means detailed. Look, when Allah revealed Al-Quran, is it likely He didn't know that translations would be made? All language comes from Allah, hence, the term "run", will be run in any language. The term detail, in whatever language it is pronounced and conceptualized, will be detailed. Given Al-Quran was sent to mankind, there is no way that Allah has made these terms and concepts difficult to translate effectively if that is what the translators wish to do. Allah, wants man to avoid Hell and gain Paradise, hence, how difficult would he make the concepts of guidance and detailed be?

Stick to the essence of the roots.

That is exactly what I did.

Remember, the Quran does NOT have all the details within it. There are many items that are detailed, but many that are left open ended for the Muslim ummah to decide upon with the changing needs of their times. That is why it is wrong to take the meaning detailed. It's better to take the meanings clarified or distinct.

Hmmm...now you have contradicted Allah. See my new thread...A GREAT CONTRADICTION. I used your name, not to out you, but to make a point.

Looking forward to your comments.

shuaib

salam PB

actually no I did not simply use the word delineate, I said the full statement delineate between 2 things.. perhaps that was not the best choice of words on my part, perhaps its better for me to say distinguish between 2 different things.

I also told you that you are falling into the mistake of going from primary to secondary to tertiary derivatives. This is a VERY unreliable way of determining meanings of verses!

Look, when Allah revealed Al-Quran, is it likely He didn't know that translations would be made? All language comes from Allah, hence, the term "run", will be run in any language.

This is kind of a strange form of logic that seems to be a reaction to not knowing Arabic. I doubt you would say these things or feel these things if you had deeper understanding of Arabic.

Languages are the culmunation of countless years of linguistic evolution. English and Arabic are FAR apart on the tree... you talk as though you only speak one language... or at least not any semetic language, or you would not imply that there is an exact word-word correspence between languages.

Allah says it himself, inna anzalnahu quraanan ARABIYYAN... why? LA'ALAKUM TA'QILOON. His choice of Arabic was not arbitrary (as you imply).. it was very special and specific and had to do with the clarity and precision of the Arabic language, which does not exist in other languages.

I'll stop there since there is limitless literature on the value of Arabic. You can find it anywhere. I'm frankly surprised we're having this discussion.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

Main Entry KATABA to write transcibe inscribe Book writing Scripture written revelation.

Given the above definition then, Al-Kitab, while referring to the Creation, also refers to Al-Quran itself, in that, it is scripture/written revelation. Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar pg. 478.

There was never a doubt that "kataba" refers to something written, but we are talking about the "writing" of the GOD, which we should not compare to the writing of man. For example, how do you explain the following statement;

(2246) ....falamma kutiba AAalayhimu alqitalu tawallaw illa qaleelan minhum waAllahu AAaleemun bialththalimeena

...So when the fighting/killing was written upon them they turned away, except little/few from them, and God (is) knowledgeable with the unjust.

A. According to your understanding then, the following ayats are not referring to Al-Quran, but the Universe.

22 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Correct,

(22) That The Book(universal law) no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying.

The universe is created with CERTAIN, SOLID LAWS that allow us to find our way. For example, we know that if we put food on the stove and turn up the temperature we can cook food, etc. What woul dhappen if the Laws of the universe were in doubt, that is , changing? We would have to wake up everyday trying to figure out how to do basic things.

378 Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah and they know it.

This verse is one of the most convincing that we are not talking about This reading.

(37 And surely from them (is) a group (who) twist/turn/distort (misconstruct with) their tongues with The Book(universal law), so that you think/suppose it (is) from The Book(universal law), and it is not from The Book(universal law), and they say "It (is) from at The God". And it is not from at The God, and they say on The God the lie/falsehood and they are knowing.

If we were talking about a the reading(quran), certainly one can open up and verify if what is being said is from the "book" or not. But it is not that simple, we are talking about people who come up with false philosophies/religions etc. about life that are not true to life itself. For example, the bible has many falsehoods in it and people say it is from the God. We do not fight that book with this book, we fight ALL FALSEHOOD with universal law(God's Book). This reading(quran) is a guide to Al Kitaab.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Did Allah send/reveal the Universe to the Messenger or did He reveal Al-Kitab-Al-Quran to the Messenger?

The God reveals universal law(Al kitaab). You must understand that the human being is created weak. There is a time in life when the human should "wake up" and the "dead brought back to life". This means that MOST PEOPLE who THINK they are awake are really sleep. Remember, it is not the blindness of the eye but the hearts we are dealing with.

So everyon is not AWAKE to universal Law, most are blind to it in thier hearts. Yes, they can SEE the universe with thier eyes, but they take it as a game.

So, the God reveals to His servants Universal Law(Al Kitaab)

(6114) So is other than The God I ask/desire (as) a judge/ruler, and He is who descended to you The Book(universal law) detailed/explained ? And those who We brought (gave) to them The Book(awakened them to universal law) , they know that it (is) descended from your Lord with the truth , so do not be (E) from the doubting/arguing.

181 Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no crookedness

Again...did Allah send/reveal the Universe to the Messenger or did He reveal Al-Kitab-Al-Quran to the Messenger?

The God awakened them to universal law. Its kinda of like one who smokes cigareetes, sometimes they "wake up" and realize they are killing themselves. And we can give MANY examples of similar situations.

456 These are the Ayats of Allah, which We rehearse to you in Truth; then in what HADITH will they believe after Allah and His AYATS?

The ayats in the above ayat, are they the Universe, Al-Quran or both?

Let me once again correct your translation

(456) Those are The God's signs, We read/recite it upon you with the truth. With which information/story after The God and His signs (do) they trust?

Remember, the God says he will show us HIS SIGNS from the Horizons to Within our spirits(nafs) until we KNOW it is the truth.

Does that sound like this physical book you call "quran" or does it sound like the Universe? This book you call "quran is indeed part of the universe and it is a guide to the universe only because it does not contradict and gives correct, verifyable information.

B. Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Al-Kitab?

No, the universe is fully detailed we just have to take it serious, not as a game/sport as the God says many do.

C. If you maintain that, Al-Kitab is not Al-Quran, is Al-Quran, then, fully detailed, in that, as it must be part of Al-Kitab which is fully detailed?

This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed. Lets work this out, if the trees were pens and the oceans ink, the words of the God would never run out. How many trees and oceans do you think it took to write the 114 chapters of this book? Not even one tree or ocean was used up. There is much more to be inspired to the human, but you must go within, as Musa did. This reading(quran) is only a guide to what you must do to get the rest.

Idolfree1
413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

This verse states that the SIGNS (not verses) of the BOOK(universe) are explained in detail by this ARABIC reading. It is the universe that is fully detailed. This arabic reading is a guide, one of the best guides.

PB
While I agree that AYATS is written in the above ayat , nonetheless, Allah, while referring to the natural phenomena as ayats, His Kitab Al-Quran, goes into many other areas which are absolutely pertinent to one's guidance. For example, looking at the Universe, is not going to explain the laws of inheritance.

Why isn't it? It is scientific. Just like scientists figure out how many parts of hydrogen mixed with so many parts of oxygen makes water. The wrong way becomes clear and we adjust until we get the right "mixture". Further, how do you verify if the inheritance laws work? Don't you look to life itself?

If the ayats, that is the Creation as a whole and its parts, was sufficient as guidance ( guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life (not doing shirk) 2185 & 649, so that, one may pass the test of conduct 187, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise 649, thus, obivating any need for extra-Quranic sources i.e. sunnah and hadith, for one's guidance. ), then there would have been no need for Messengers and Kitabs/Readings.

Why do you say that? I learned how to talk before I went to school, yet there are english books written. I learned how to drive from experience, yet there are books written on how to drive.

You see, even though the guidance is there for all of us, many are misguided and controlled by thier lower/emotional nature. They are guided by thier ego's. Remember, man was created weak. So those who have the universal law revealed to them, there job is to help others find that path. Yes, they can find it on thier own if they strive for such, but many do not even know that they should be looking for a path.

unknownuser

error.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

Let me once again correct your translation

(456) Those are The God's signs, We read/recite it upon you with the truth. With which information/story after The God and His signs (do) they trust?

Remember, the God says he will show us HIS SIGNS from the Horizons to Within our spirits(nafs) until we KNOW it is the truth.

Does that sound like this physical book you call "quran" or does it sound like the Universe? This book you call "quran is indeed part of the universe and it is a guide to the universe only because it does not contradict and gives correct, verifyable information.

But what you are not taking into account or ignoring is...the "verses" of Al-Quran, that is, the verses from 11 to 1146, are also called AYATS. And yes, 496 isn't talking about the Universe, but the command of Allah not to follow any other hadith other than the Hadith --Al-Quran from Allah.

PRIEST Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Al-Kitab? If you maintain that, Al-Kitab is not Al-Quran, is Al-Quran, then, fully detailed, in that, as it must be part of Al-Kitab which is fully detailed?

No, the universe is fully detailed we just have to take it serious, not as a game/sport as the God says many do. This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed. Lets work this out, if the trees were pens and the oceans ink, the words of the God would never run out. How many trees and oceans do you think it took to write the 114 chapters of this book? Not even one tree or ocean was used up. There is much more to be inspired to the human, but you must go within, as Musa did. This reading(quran) is only a guide to what you must do to get the rest.

The reference to the trees, oceans, pens, ink etc., is to make clear to man that every word in Al-Quran was chosen by Allah for a specific reason, and, the exact number of words that are in there are supposed to be there...no more no less, do you agree? Allah knows how to choose His Words. Given the Universe and beyond is was created by Allah and is fully detailed, then how could Allah give man a guide toward recognizing this and the guide likewise not be complete? What does the following mean to you

53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen...

What, relative to the above ayat, is not fully detailed in Al-Kitab Al-Quran?

The guide that is Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, must be fully detailed, in that, it was revealed by Allah for mankind's guidance , nonetheless, Allah, while referring to the natural phenomena as ayats, His Kitab Al-Quran, goes into many other areas which are absolutely pertinent to one's guidance. For example, looking at the Universe, is not going to explain the laws of inheritance.

Why isn't it? It is scientific. Just like scientists figure out how many parts of hydrogen mixed with so many parts of oxygen makes water. The wrong way becomes clear and we adjust until we get the right "mixture". Further, how do you verify if the inheritance laws work? Don't you look to life itself?

Given your argument, what purpose then, is Al-Quran? Scientist are dealing with bio-physical laws, while Al-Quran, is dealing with moral laws. Certainly you see the difference in these two things.

PRIEST If the ayats, that is the Creation as a whole and its parts, was sufficient as guidance ( guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life (not doing shirk) 2185 & 649, so that, one may pass the test of conduct 187, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise 649, thus, obivating any need for extra-Quranic sources i.e. sunnah and hadith, for one's guidance. ), then there would have been no need for Messengers and Kitabs/Readings.

Why do you say that? I learned how to talk before I went to school, yet there are english books written. I learned how to drive from experience, yet there are books written on how to drive.

What is your point here? What is the relationship of your point to Allah's raising up Messengers and the giving of scriptures/kitabs/quran?

You see, even though the guidance is there for all of us, many are misguided and controlled by thier lower/emotional nature. They are guided by thier ego's. Remember, man was created weak. So those who have the universal law revealed to them, there job is to help others find that path. Yes, they can find it on thier own if they strive for such, but many do not even know that they should be looking for a path.

What is the...Universal Law? Where can I read about it? Is it Al-Quran or what?

Al-Quran was revealed for exactly the above reasons you stated in bold.

Peace-

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed

Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .

1015 And when Our clear Ayats are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.

Relative to the above definition and ayat

What hasn't Al-Kitab Al-Quran, not fully detailed?
Certanily the above cannot be talking about the Universe being revealed to the Messenger, in that, it was already here before him.
The Ayats being recited are those from 11 to 1146, or do you disagree?

Peace.

unknownuser

PEACE, SHUAIB,

actually no I did not simply use the word delineate, I said the full statement delineate between 2 things.. perhaps that was not the best choice of words on my part, perhaps its better for me to say distinguish between 2 different things. I also told you that you are falling into the mistake of going from primary to secondary to tertiary derivatives. This is a VERY unreliable way of determining meanings of verses!

O.K., let's cut to the chase and come to the heart and the meat of the matter.

What word does Allah use for detail in Al-Quran?
Given your above rendering of fasala , how does it mean relative to the following definition of guidance

Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .

2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

187 That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.

18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

649 The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain (among you), and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever that will be the Supreme Achievement.

Looking forward to your reply.

marie

Salam,

I have some questions

Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?

Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?

Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.

Looking for your thought

Thanks

TAJ

Salaams Marie, All

Salam,

I have some questions

Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?

Isn't the flawless, the doubtless (= La Rayba feeh ) Creation, FaRji3e Al Bassar --> Hal Traa min Fo6oor?, isn't it a decision/decree that Allah had made?
Aren't we Ahlu Hatha Al Kitaab? Aren't we the witnesses, the residents and one of the product of this Creation?

Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?

Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.

What Allah has Kataba (= has decreed) such as in Ayah should be, without doubt, in harmony with the Universal Laws. Ayah is an example of a Universal Law.

Those were very good questions, Marie. Thanks.

marie

Sala Taj

Salaams Marie, All

Salam,

I have some questions

Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?

Isn't the flawless, the doubtless (= La Rayba feeh ) Creation, FaRji3e Al Bassar --> Hal Traa min Fo6oor?, isn't it a decision/decree that Allah had made?
Aren't we Ahlu Hatha Al Kitaab? Aren't we the witnesses, the residents and one of the product of this Creation?

There is any evidence for this interpretation (alkitab = creation).
Alkitab is rich in meanings and this arabic Reading like all divine books are the best definition for the word alkitab; a guide for those who follow closely the God's commands. Several decrees are specific for the Reading and are not universal laws.

Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?

Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.

What Allah has Kataba (= has decreed) such as in Ayah should be, without doubt, in harmony with the Universal Laws. Ayah is an example of a Universal Law.

This is Why I understand that that alkitab is not only the universal law, it is a reducing vision. Alkitab and the creation are linked but they are not synonym.
Several decrees are specific for the Reading, one cannot deduce them from universal laws.

Those were very good questions, Marie. Thanks.

Thanks