Vote for da Biiiiiiiiibllllllllllle!!!!!!!!!!
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Peace Saladin, Zenje,
I am not too sure about which to vote for, I would imagine it to be the 2nd option but I can't really say at this moment in time. I have only read parts of the bible and not in as much detail or as much as the reading we use.
Zenje Can you actually give some examples as to which parts you think are 'fictional', personally I wouldn't imagine it to have gone THAT far but I can't say because I have not read it. In comparison to quran I wouldn't think that you would say it's fictional because there are a lot of stories in the quran that require 'belief' to my knowledge. Anyway fill me in when you can. Or do you think the bible is 'inconsistent'?
What would you all say about the bible, would you agree that muslims like ourselves should study it like we study the reading we have? Or would you simply say no point, we have a scripture that completes the bible? I would have imagined muslims to study all kinds of texts like in the early days when they elaborated on Greek philosophy and other areas.
Nural
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Salaam everybody,
Nural Amin wrote
we have a scripture that completes the bible
I would rather say completes, rectifies and supercedes, and that is why the qur'an is enough for guidance...which doesn't mean that studying the bible or other scriptures could not help our understanding - after all they too are part of our kitab - or universe.
Elke
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"The bible is fundamentally fiction incorporating some historical facts"... thats me.
This can be said of all scriptures perhaps?
Because all scripture contain parables and parables are fictional accounts that tries to illustrate a deeper spiritual truth or significance which can't be conveyed by mere discursive language. For example Buddah's parable of the Mustard Seed which illustrates death as fact of life; Jesus's , the parable of the Good Samaritan, Muhammad parable of the "Sleepers" etc...Even these words"Love thine enemy. Forgive those that persecute you" has very deep spiritual significance...
Regards,
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"The bible is fundamentally fiction incorporating some historical facts"... thats me.
This can be said of all scriptures perhaps?
Because all scripture contain parables and parables are fictional accounts that tries to illustrate a deeper spiritual truth or significance which can't be conveyed by mere discursive language. For example Buddah's parable of the Mustard Seed which illustrates death as fact of life; Jesus's , the parable of the Good Samaritan, Muhammad parable of the "Sleepers" etc...Even these words"Love thine enemy. Forgive those that persecute you" has very deep spiritual significance...
Regards,
Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, sometimes if it is concluded that a particular holy scripture contains fiction or errors, the credibility of that scripture drops. Biblical literalists for instance would rather close their eyes to the mountains of evidence than to admit that the earth is older than 6000 years. But that's more of a problem to the believers. Some people just need more reassurance than others.
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Peace,
Zenje, I think you have misunderstood me, like I said earlier I have not read the Bible inside out or even the whole thing once, but I wouldn't compare it to HADITH although I know that there is corruption in translations. But I personally have not seen the evidence that these books are as unreliable as the HADITH. HADITH are strictly heresay and all them people are dead and many other things show their unreliability but I cannot say the same for the torah and bible as I have not studied them.
I would just expect them to be reliable and consistent compared to hadith because they are spoke about in the Quran and respected in the Quran.
Nural
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Salaam Nural,
Zenje, I think you have misunderstood me
Perhaps you misunderstood me as well? I was giving my point of view, I don't expect anyone else to be even remotely the same. )like I said earlier I have not read the Bible inside out or even the whole thing once, but I wouldn't compare it to HADITH
Have you read the all the hadith inside and out? oHADITH are strictly heresay and all them people are dead and many other things show their unreliability but I cannot say the same for the torah and bible
I can... again, thats just me. winkI would just expect them to be reliable and consistent compared to hadith
Really? I admire your confidence in them. Me?... I honestly have no time for them.because they are spoke about in the Quran and respected in the Quran.
Are they?... you mean 'taurat' and 'injeel' = 'Torah' and 'Bible'?... My beliefs are different, but I respect yours.Peace.
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Really? I admire your confidence in them. Me?... I honestly have no time for them.
If you are prepared to call other scripture fabrications not yours then you owe it yourself to read them or else your stance is like the Ostrich with its head in the sand.
"Love thine enemy. Forgive you those that persecute you".
-Gospel"Contact with life makes us feel heat, cold and light.
But these are fleeting things we must learn to endure.
For when we have conquered life's trivialities
then we are fit for immortality.
-Bagavad GitaThou hast made me endless such they pleasure.
This frail vessel of reed thou hast carried over hills and dales
and breathed through it melodies eternally new.
-Rabindranath TagoreBeyond Right doing and Wrong doing
There is a field
We shall meet there
-Jalal Uddin RumiRegards,
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Let me pull some out of the Qur'an...
"Love thine enemy. Forgive you those that persecute you".
-Gospel2193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion be only for God, but if they stop, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
"Contact with life makes us feel heat, cold and light.
But these are fleeting things we must learn to endure.
For when we have conquered life's trivialities
then we are fit for immortality.
-Bagavad Gita632 And this world's life is naught but amusement and playthings, and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who obey; do you not then understand?
Thou hast made me endless such they pleasure.
This frail vessel of reed thou hast carried over hills and dales
and breathed through it melodies eternally new.
-Rabindranath Tagore2126 And when Ibrahim said "My Lord , make this a secure place, and provide for its people from the fruits, who believed from them, by God and the Day the Last/Resurrection Day." He said "And who disbelieved, so I make him enjoy a little , then I force him to the fire's torture, and it is a bad destination."
Beyond Right doing and Wrong doing
There is a field
We shall meet there
-Jalal Uddin Rumi281-82 Certainly, whoever earned a sin, and his sin surrounded him, those are the fire's company, they are in it eternally. And those who believed and made the righteous deeds, those are the Paradise's owners, they are in it eternally.
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If you are prepared to call other scripture fabrications not yours then you owe it yourself to read them or else your stance is like the Ostrich with its head in the sand.
peace Lotetree and all .
its off-topic but i read in some magazine that an ostrich never buries its head in the sand . nobody has never recorded any such event . the magazine said that from among the thousands of ostriches kept under observation and tested , not even one ever buried its head in the sand . so its just hearsay . u guys ever read any such thing ? -
Let me pull some out of the Qur'an...
"Love thine enemy. Forgive you those that persecute you".
-Gospel2193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion be only for God, but if they stop, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
Where is the forgiveness?
To able to forgive is to kill part of your self.
To erase the memory of the pain,
To let go of the heart ache
And be free from hate.
For hate poisons something in our self
It tarnishes the very soul of our lives."Contact with life makes us feel heat, cold and light.
But these are fleeting things we must learn to endure.
For when we have conquered life's trivialities
then we are fit for immortality.
-Bagavad Gita632 And this world's life is naught but amusement and playthings, and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who obey; do you not then understand?
Only obedience grants you hearafter?
Thou hast made me endless such they pleasure.
This frail vessel of reed thou hast carried over hills and dales
and breathed through it melodies eternally new.
-Rabindranath Tagore2126 And when Ibrahim said "My Lord , make this a secure place, and provide for its people from the fruits, who believed from them, by God and the Day the Last/Resurrection Day." He said "And who disbelieved, so I make him enjoy a little , then I force him to the fire's torture, and it is a bad destination."
Fire's torture? So mere unbelief in God in our finite life make us deserve eternal torture in Fire?
Beyond Right doing and Wrong doing
There is a field
We shall meet there
-Jalal Uddin Rumi281-82 Certainly, whoever earned a sin, and his sin surrounded him, those are the fire's company, they are in it eternally. And those who believed and made the righteous deeds, those are the Paradise's owners, they are in it eternally.
Again mere unbelief makes us deserve eternal torment in fire?
Why? Why does God get angry when we don't believe in him that he needs to torment little puny things like us?No, Andya, I think there is more to life than waiting for a reward in Paradise or torture in Hell. This Universe is "mind-boggingly" Big Andya and Human Mind is "mind" boggingly complex. In my view, God has far greater plan for us in this Creation...
"I was a hidden treassure.
I wanted to be known.
So I created this Universe
so that I may be known."
-A little diamond found in the Hadith Bin...Regards,
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Peace Zenje,
Have you read the all the hadith inside and out?
Maybe not inside out, definately not every book! But yes I have spent a lot of time reading the 'most reliable' in detail in the past and have also benefitted from reading them. I wasn't going to disown them until I knew and verified for myself that they were contradictory and also the very nature of them (Chain of narrators/Chinese whispers).
Really? I admire your confidence in them. Me?... I honestly have no time for them.
Yeah and the sole reason for this is because I have faith in the reading we study here and the books are mentioned therefore I will give them a chance because the reminder is preserved. Even if they are corrupted I think the koran's interpretation has been too because the meanings that have been interpreted are not pure only sincere believers can find the true Quranic meaning, we can see today that most translations prove to be inaccurate within a a few years. Although I personally think that the reading we have is a very consistent book, and I have seen none other like it including the bible and torah (maybe i need to study them in more depth).
My point about this is basically this is the path towards unity, I am sure that whatever we have in this reading that is key to mankinds progression will be in the other scriptures that are mentioned because God says that this is a confirmation of what is already in the older scriptures. If we study them we can unite in understanding and share a lot of knowledge with sincere jews and christians aswell as members of other major faiths, if indeed the books they have are an inspiration or word from God.
Are they?... you mean 'taurat' and 'injeel' = 'Torah' and 'Bible'?... My beliefs are different, but I respect yours.
Truthfully, I can't say whether the equation above is correct because I am uncertain about that and am not an Arabic speaker or reader, I depend at the moment on numerous translations. But for me the way to find out is to check, if we see the path outlined in this reading to be similar in these other scriptures then it will become clearer.
I was giving my point of view, I don't expect anyone else to be even remotely the same.
You have your rights to believe what you want or find to be true and I respect that, I didn't intend on confronting you on your beliefs or interregating you about them, by your reply it feels as though I did, so I apologise if I made you feel uncomfortable. Nor was I trying to impose my understanding on you, I was just trying to understand further and also maybe reach some common grounds.
Nural
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LT
If you are prepared to call other scripture fabrications not yours then you owe it yourself to read them or else your stance is like the Ostrich with its head in the sand
Perhaps not cover to cover (just like hadith books), but I've read them alright. roll I don't have time for them anymore. PPS - quran is not mine.
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Peace Nural,
You have your rights to believe what you want or find to be true and I respect that, I didn't intend on confronting you on your beliefs or interregating you about them, by your reply it feels as though I did, so I apologise if I made you feel uncomfortable.
No bro, I didnt feel any confrontation from you, and I realize now why my reply made it seem so... wrong choice of words I guess. It is I to apologize. No harm no foul? handshakePeace everyone else,
I must say though, it's interesting to see the direction this thread has taken... pretty much like all other threads here. The beginning, simple and straight-forward... as it "progresses", it slowly deviates to a different level, by the end of it, I doubt if it will have any resemblance to what Saladin intended. rollHINT Vote whatever answer you like, or don't vote. Post what you voted, or don't post. (Note not everyone's votes will be the same ).
Peace
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Peace everyone else,
I must say though, it's interesting to see the direction this thread has taken... pretty much like all other threads here. The beginning, simple and straight-forward... as it "progresses", it slowly deviates to a different level, by the end of it, I doubt if it will have any resemblance to what Saladin intended. rollThat is the nature of the beast -)
The best you can do is to control if you can the direction the beast is headed -)HINT Vote whatever answer you like, or don't vote. Post what you voted, or don't post. (Note not everyone's votes will be the same ).
PeaceYes, true - but this is a forum of discussion... be prepared to speak for the stance you voted... -) and don't feel uncomfortable when members question your stance. It is the answers that you provide that makes us learn from each other and ponder the questions that we have never thought about before...
Regards,
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I must say though, it's interesting to see the direction this thread has taken... pretty much like all other threads here. The beginning, simple and straight-forward... as it "progresses", it slowly deviates to a different level, by the end of it, I doubt if it will have any resemblance to what Saladin intended. roll
hmm... has it ever "progressed" as intended ?! roll