SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS...
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
PRIEST
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above definition of GUIDANCE--as corroborated by those four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed...yes or no?
In your next quote, you agree, as did Wakas, with my above Quranic assertion.
WAKAS It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
SHUAIB it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete
Now, as did Wakas, you contradict yourself all over the place.
SHUAIB Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
It is a contradiction to state that Al-Quran, as you admit, is complete guidance. Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps, and then turn right around and say...it is complete, despite, leaving out details. What you've said is that, some necessary details, relative to/specific to, GUIDANCE, are not in Al-Quran.
Now, tell me that you cannot see the OBVIOUS contradiction in your quotes?
PRIEST 2. Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
SHUAIB Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
And as above I made many other statements indicating the same idea... and if the Quran is complete, obviously if a person goes astray it is not the fault of the Quran.
What does your above answer have to do with the question i asked you...absolutely nothing, please answer the question an stop with the evasions, thanks
- Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
Fully-detailed is simply the wrong word.. and you too, even YOU aren't using it to TRULY mean fully detailed.. you are simply using it to mean complete. And your above 2 questions display that as well.. all you are trying to say is FULLY COMPLETE, so WHY do you insist on using the term detailed which can lead to false impressions!
Please don't tell me what I am trying to say...I know fully well what I am saying, thanks. What does..."having all necessary parts, elements, steps" , mean to you?
- Did Allah, leave out any NECESSARY/INDISPENSIBLE PARTS, ELEMENTS, STEPS, from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
( Now, would you look at that. Detail, means to report minutely and distinctly. So, let me get this straight, if something, as M-W asserts, is reported in a minute and distinct manner...it is detailed.
Check out what Allah says
1712...all things have We explained in detail.
1712...shayin fassalnahu tafseela.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Sleeping with young boys will be either act of fahusha/indecency or it won't. Allah, has given the guidance on fahusha. Agreed?
I am asking you, which one is it? Is it indecent or not?
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
While you are at it, please give the definition for HAND and FACE, we will need them to help understand this.
Al-Quran 11 to 114, according to the above definition of a book, constitutes a book. The problem/task it was sent to address was...guidance.
I disagree. When the God says we should seek His 'FACE" does that mean we are looking for
1 a the front part of the human head including the chin, mouth, nose, cheeks, eyes, and usually the forehead?
Also, when thinking about the "reading" of this "book" remember some very important information;
(2246) Do they not walk/move/ride in the earth, so it (can) be for thier hearts they reason/comprehend with it, or ears they hear/listen with it, so that it truly does not blind the eye and but that the hearts which (are) in the chests (innermosts) blind.
That is to say the blindness is of the HEART, not the Eye. When the God descends the reading to you, it means you are getting truths from UNIVERSAL LAW(Al Kitaab), which is read/ comprehended by the "Heart". We must travel through the earth so that our hearts can comprehend the Universal LAW.
By "people", I must assume you mean...humanity? Al-Quran was sent to all humanity, and, whether you want to call it a kitab or not or whatever, it constitutes a complete and perfect body of work i.e. 11 to 114, for the guidance of mankind Agreed?
Disagreed. Yes, mankind is sent Truths, intuited by Man and written down by Man, from God. But that which is PERFECT cannot be squezzed into 114 chapters. The God words would exhuast all the trees and oceans, remember? The Universe however contains all trees and oceans, it is the Universal Law that is Al Kitaab. So anything Limited is not AT God, the God is WHOLE, ONE.
With this in mind then...Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
We are not really getting anywhere with this because you are referring to "quran" as 114 chapters, I see it as any TRUTH from the Universal LAws. The 114 chapter Book cannot be complete, because that would mean the God's words ran out in just 114 chapters.
That which is in the 114 chapters is capable of leading you to a place where you can "hear and obey the God restrictions", it is a place within, thats what Musa was told. Thats why he did not need shoes.
Al Quraan, the reading, is the reharsal of the God's signs from the horizons tro within our souls, which is Al Kitaab. That is why when the God's signs are regearsed they say "bring a reading other than this". TRhis Book you call "Koran" because of its size, cannot be "Al Quraan" and therfore cannot be fully detailed.
You didn't answer the question
Did Allah, leave out ANY DETAIL from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
That question is really not valid, we could take out all verses exceopt the ones that say to follow good and avoid evil and STILL have sufficient guidance, to be "complete" as you are trying to state. "Hell" is a state of mind, not some dark pit with a pitchfork monster.
Quote
Is there instruction on how to start a fire?Is learning how to start a fire requiste to living a righteous life, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise?
Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, not camping out.
As I stated above, the mere statement of following good and avoiding evil is enough as guidance, so "details" must mean something more.
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salam pb,
We will continue to go in circles so I hope this is my last post to you.
Consider a watch. A watch with all the inside workings, and the hour and minute hand. The 12'oclock position is marked but no other positions are marked.
This watch is completely sufficient for telling time... no other DETAILS are necessary.. it is complete. BUT, it is not fully detailed, since all the hour positions are not marked and the minute positions are not marked either.
COMPLETE is NOT the same thing as fully detailed.
You CONTINUE to FORCE us to believe that fully detailed and complete are the same phrase.. this is NOT true.
FULL detail implies all NECESSARY AND UNECESSARY details. Thats what I take that phrase to mean anyway.
You, however, take fully detailed to mean only the necessary details.. I disagree with this terminology, and since we can't agree on our terminology there is nothing more to discuss. I have already presented the reasons I disagree with this terminology, including Arabic lexicon evidence.
We agree on our concepts but we differ on the terminology, as far as I can tell. And I am quite satisfied with my terminology.. i.e. FULLY detailed includes necessary AND unnecessary details (hence the word FULLY).
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This watch is completely sufficient for telling time... no other DETAILS are necessary.. it is complete. BUT, it is not fully detailed, since all the hour positions are not marked and the minute positions are not marked either.
Out of curiousity (sorry, I haven't followed your conversations with PB), do you then believe that you need other manuals/watches to explain this watch? Or do you require other gadgets (example - GPS unit) for other purposes?
Just trying to understand what you believe to be true. I have understood the difference between complete and fully detailed according to this nice example. I'm just wondering what it means to you. )
Peace.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
COMPLETE is NOT the same thing as fully detailed. You CONTINUE to FORCE us to believe that fully detailed and complete are the same phrase.. this is NOT true.
Despite the very definitions of the terms, you still state that complete and fuly detailed are not the same thing. Did you bother to read the definitions of the terms in my prior post??
FULL detail implies all NECESSARY AND UNECESSARY details. Thats what I take that phrase to mean anyway.
It doesn't matter what you take the phrase to mean, that is giving your opinion/conjecture. Allah, forbids "implying" and the giving of opinion/conjecture, relative to His Deen/Guidance
733 Say the things that my Lord has indeed made haram are fahusha/shameful deeds, whether open or secret...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
So, are you saying for a Quranic fact that..." FULL detail means all NECESSARY AND UNECESSARY details"...yes or no?
You, however, take fully detailed to mean only the necessary details.. I disagree with this terminology, and since we can't agree on our terminology there is nothing more to discuss. I have already presented the reasons I disagree with this terminology, including Arabic lexicon evidence.
Why would Allah, Almighty God, burden His Creation with UNNECESSARY DETAILS?!? That would be meaningless/vanity! Are you now going to say that, because Allah didn't put unnecessary details in His Quran, that it is now not complete/fully detailed, relative to/specific to, Guidance? Is this really your position?
YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE FOLLOWING QUESTION, PLEASE DO SO, THANKS
Did Allah, leave out any NECESSARY/INDISPENSIBLE PARTS, ELEMENTS, STEPS, from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDOL,
PRIEST Sleeping with young boys will be either act of fahusha/indecency or it won't. Allah, has given the guidance on fahusha. Agreed?
I am asking you, which one is it? Is it indecent or not?
Present a scenario and let's see.
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
While you are at it, please give the definition for HAND and FACE, we will need them to help understand this...Disagreed. Yes, mankind is sent Truths, intuited by Man and written down by Man, from God. But that which is PERFECT cannot be squezzed into 114 chapters. The God words would exhuast all the trees and oceans, remember? The Universe however contains all trees and oceans, it is the Universal Law that is Al Kitaab. So anything Limited is not AT God, the God is WHOLE, ONE
I'm not talking about hands, feet, faces or ankles, I'm talking about the definition of a book. Let's keep our focus, shall we? Do you deny that, Al-Quran, that is, the body of work from 11 to 1146, does not constitute a book from Allah, is this your position, yes or no?
PREIST By "people", I must assume you mean...humanity? Al-Quran was sent to all humanity, and, whether you want to call it a kitab or not or whatever, it constitutes a complete and perfect body of work i.e. 11 to 114, for the guidance of mankind Agreed?
With this in mind then...Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
We are not really getting anywhere with this because you are referring to "quran" as 114 chapters, I see it as any TRUTH from the Universal LAws. The 114 chapter Book cannot be complete, because that would mean the God's words ran out in just 114 chapters.
I don't care what you see it as, that is simply you conjecturing/opinion making again. What I'm asking you is...Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, that is, the body of work from 11 to 1146, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? YES OR NO. Stop evading the question.
That which is in the 114 chapters is capable of leading you to a place where you can "hear and obey the God restrictions", it is a place within, thats what Musa was told. Thats why he did not need shoes.
You are really out there, man.
You didn't answer the question
PRIESTDid Allah, leave out ANY DETAIL from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
That question is really not valid, we could take out all verses exceopt the ones that say to follow good and avoid evil and STILL have sufficient guidance, to be "complete" as you are trying to state. "Hell" is a state of mind, not some dark pit with a pitchfork monster.
How do you know what Hell is? Can you now see the ghayb? What are you talking about??
How can it not be a valid question, given that, the Sunni's and Shites claim that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to GUIDANCE, is not fully detailed?? You, Shuaib, and Wakas, given your recent comments, are no different than them. I am Allah and His Quran/Guidance...only and alone. What really...is your position, Idol?, because it certainly is Allah and Quran only and alone, that is for sure.
Quote Is there instruction on how to start a fire?
PRIEST Is learning how to start a fire requiste to living a righteous life, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise? Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, not camping out.
As I stated above, the mere statement of following good and avoiding evil is enough as guidance, so "details" must mean something more.
As usual, you didn't answer the question, so here it is again
Is learning how to start a fire requiste to living a righteous life, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise? YES OR NO Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, not camping out.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ZENGE,
SHUAIB This watch is completely sufficient for telling time... no other DETAILS are necessary.. it is complete. BUT, it is not fully detailed, since all the hour positions are not marked and the minute positions are not marked either.
Out of curiousity (sorry, I haven't followed your conversations with PB), do you then believe that you need other manuals/watches to explain this watch? Or do you require other gadgets (example - GPS unit) for other purposes?
Just trying to understand what you believe to be true. I have understood the difference between complete and fully detailed according to this nice example. I'm just wondering what it means to you.
)His anology fails miserably. By his own admission, the watch, without the "other" details, told time completely and is sufficent for telling the time, hence, there are no other details necessary to achieve the end of knowing what time it is by that watch. Do you agree, yes or no? Details not necessary to the purpose or function of something, are called....ACCESSORIES.
Main Entry ACCESSORYan object or device not essential in itself but adding to the beauty, convenience, or effectiveness of something else.
Allah's Quran, pertinent to/relative to/specific to Guidance , is fully detailed...not accessorized, because an accessory is something that is not necessary for a thing to fulfill its purpose.
I would very much like to know how you, relative to/specific to, Al-Quran that, complete and fully detailed are not the same. Please read the following and answer this question
Did Allah, leave out any NECESSARY/INDISPENSIBLE PARTS, ELEMENTS, STEPS, from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
WAKAS It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
SHUAIB it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete
Now, as did Wakas, you contradict yourself all over the place.
SHUAIB Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
It is a contradiction to state that Al-Quran, as you admit, is complete guidance. Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps, and then turn right around and say...it is complete, despite, leaving out details. What you've said is that, some necessary details, relative to/specific to, GUIDANCE, are not in Al-Quran.
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
( Now, would you look at that. Detail, means to report minutely and distinctly. So, let me get this straight, if something, as M-W asserts, is reported in a minute and distinct manner...it is detailed.
Check out what Allah says
1712...all things have We explained in detail.
1712...shayin fassalnahu tafseela.
Looking forward to your repsonse.
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salam br zenje,
you musn't overdo the analysis of the watch. I provided that analogy just to show that something can be complete without being FULLY detailed. Since my analogy was referring to the Quran, I take it your question means "Do I believe that any outside information is vital to understanding/implementing the Quran."
The answer of course is no. The Quran is independent, and totally sufficient for guidance. Br. PB and I are in agreement on this.. and actually, though he perhaps won't admit it, we actually agree on all our concepts.. the only thing we disagree on is terminology.
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salam br PB,
I dont know why you are acting so threatened by me. If I'm so much a fool then no one will listen anyway.. so please stop acting that way.
I gave that analogy in the hopes of explaining my understanding of the difference between NECESSARY details and UNNECESSARY details... you need both together to have "FULLY" detailed.
That is my terminology. You have your terminology. You refuse to accept my terminology for various reasons.
I tried to explain the folly in using the term fully detailed, and tried to explain how the Arabic does not even mean that.. and I've said pretty much all I can say.
Let's just agree now to peacefully go our separate ways.
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Salaam Shuaib,
Thank you for answering my question, and thanks for seeing where I was going with it. DSalaam PB,
Why cant we all just get along? grouphug It seems to me that the essence of the message is accepted by both of you. Pardon the pun, but the rest is just details... isn't it? DAllah's Quran, pertinent to/relative to/specific to Guidance...
If I understand correctly... you guys are in agreement up to this point. And that to me, is the important part.)>-
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
I dont know why you are acting so threatened by me. If I'm so much a fool then no one will listen anyway.. so please stop acting that way.
Threatened??? LOL!, you've got to be kidding, right?? Nothing about you is threatening, in fact, it is the opposite that is the case. Your comment is nothing but projection, and that is why you refuse, after numerous requests to do so, to answer the following question with a yes or a no
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
If you aren't threatened by me, then, you will answer the above question this time with a yes or a no.
I gave that analogy in the hopes of explaining my understanding of the difference between NECESSARY details and UNNECESSARY details... you need both together to have "FULLY" detailed.
You anaolgy fails. Just in case you din't read my explanation for why it fails, here it is again
His anology fails miserably. By his own admission, the watch, without the "other" details, told time completely and is sufficent for telling the time, hence, there are no other details necessary to achieve the end of knowing what time it is by that watch. Do you agree, yes or no? Details not necessary to the purpose or function of something, are called....ACCESSORIES.
Main Entry ACCESSORYan object or device not essential in itself but adding to the beauty, convenience, or effectiveness of something else.
Allah's Quran, pertinent to/relative to/specific to Guidance , is fully detailed...not accessorized, because an accessory is something that is not necessary for a thing to fulfill its purpose.
I would very much like to know how you, relative to/specific to, Al-Quran that, complete and fully detailed are not the same. Please read the following and answer this question
Did Allah, leave out any NECESSARY/INDISPENSIBLE PARTS, ELEMENTS, STEPS, from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
WAKAS It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
SHUAIB it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete
Now, as did Wakas, you contradict yourself all over the place.
SHUAIB Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
It is a contradiction to state that Al-Quran, as you admit, is complete guidance. Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps, and then turn right around and say...it is complete, despite, leaving out details. What you've said is that, some necessary details, relative to/specific to, GUIDANCE, are not in Al-Quran.
That is my terminology. You have your terminology. You refuse to accept my terminology for various reasons. I tried to explain the folly in using the term fully detailed, and tried to explain how the Arabic does not even mean that.. and I've said pretty much all I can say.
Your terminology and explantions are nothing more than your own conjectures/opinions, and an excuse for not answering the following question, which terrifies you, with a simple yes or no
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
Let's just agree now to peacefully go our separate ways.
I'm not holding you back from going anywhere, however, I wish you would have the intestinal fortitude to stop running away and answer the following question...yes or no. What say you?
If you won't answer the following question with a yes or no response, then you will clearly show that you are only interested in avoiding the truth, and your ego.
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ZENJE,
Why cant we all just get along? grouphug It seems to me that the essence of the message is accepted by both of you. Pardon the pun, but the rest is just details... isn't it? D
Don't misread my tenacity as being antipathy for Shauib, Wakas, or Idol. I like then all very much...and you too )
Allah's Quran, pertinent to/relative to/specific to Guidance...
If I understand correctly... you guys are in agreement up to this point. And that to me, is the important part.
Shuaib, Wakas, and I, are not in agreement, in fact, our positions are antithetical, to wit
WAKAS It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Then he turns around and undoes what he previously asserted, to wit
WAKAS One could infer from the attribute 'fassala', that the text would be clear in what the text means thus it is sufficiently detailed with respect to gaining a meaning, but not 'fully detailed' as a blanket term. When someone says a text is 'fully detailed' one must give an object of reference (i.e. fully detailed with respect to what)
But, didn't he previously say that?
WAKAS With respect to its purpose as a guide, it is fully detailed.
It is obvious that we are talking about Al-Quran being fully detailed in respect to guidance , and not in some "blanket use" of the term.
Now he is stating that, Al-Quran--The Text, relative to/specific to/in respect to...guidance, is not fully detailed.
SHUAIB it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete
The he turns around undoes what he says
SHUAIB Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
My position is
Al-Quran is fassalnahu/fully detalied, Al-Quran--The Text, relative to/specific to/in respect to...guidance , and omits no details regarding guidance.
As you can see, Shuaib and Wakas, while agreeing with each other's position, are in contradiction with mine. My position supports Tauhid Allah, while their's does not.
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
What say you, Zenje?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ZENJE,
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
No.
I hope that suffices.
Yes, your answer absolutely suffices.
The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
Now, isn't it interesting that Shuaib, Wakas, and Idol, cannot/will not simply answer "no" as you and I have done, what is up with that??
Thanks for an honest response, Zenje. Perhaps the others will be lead by your example and simply answer "no" as well.
Peace.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
you are only interested in avoiding the truth, and your ego.
my sentiments exactly.
Still cannot answer yes or no, eh?, simply pitiful. Anyway, I hope you will, at some point, show the kind of forthrightness/intellectual honesty that Zenje, has.
By not answering the question put to you, you sacrificed/forsook Al-Quran, to you ego. Good work.
Peace.
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Salaams all,
zenje wrote
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?No.
I hope that suffices.
I also agree 100%.
Salaam.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams all,
zenje wrote
PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?No.
I hope that suffices.
I also agree 100%.
Salaam.
All praises due to Allah. You are another intellectually honest individual. Perhaps now Shuiab, Idol, and Wakas, will come out of hiding and follow yours and Zenje's lead and respond with a simple yes or no as well. Let's see.
It is my understanding that, the questions I asked, will demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik /munafiq .
Peace.
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It is my understanding that, the questions I asked, will demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik /munafiq .
Peace.Oh Priest Bokmei,
Demacrate the Muslim? But I don't label myself with anything! Why do you intend to label others with polythiest or hypocrite?
Simply a belief in God not enough?Regards,