=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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Peace be upon you Someone,
I believe that "al-quran" refers to "the set of universal laws" (chapter 551-2), this is "al-quran fi law7in ma7foudh" which is different in "shape" from this one that we have on paper. The one on paper is "encoded" in an arabic language, it is an arabic version of "the universal laws", and also contains the details of the creation.
For analogy, "al-quran" would be "the set of laws of grammar, spelling..", and "al-kitab" is "the language", but one need a language to write physically "the set of laws of grammar and spelling" or even just to say them. These laws contains the details of the language, but does not constitue the language itself, the language emanates from those laws.
I hope I'm making sense. I'll try to put more when it's clearer in my mind, unless if the god wills.
Please eleborate as it becomes clearer to you. I would like to see where you are going with this so I can make sure that my understanding is correct. I "THINK" you may have brought a good correction to my understanding, but I am not sure, I would like you to elaborate when you have time.
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PEACE, IDOL,
So you are saying that to you, hand of God is a literal hand as well as face? If not , then you need an "IMPLICATION" as well.
I'm not talking about hands and faces right now, just books.
PRIEST You agree that Al-Quran derives for qarara, that which is to be recited, read, proclaimed..."The Reading". My question is, this "Reading", the ayats which you are commanded to read and recite, are they not compiled in a book beginning with 11 and ending with 1146? Yes or no?
No, we are to READ the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds, not confine ourselves to 114 chapters. The 114 chapters point us to the Universe and its laws.
I'm not talking about "confining" ourselves to anything, I'm talking about an entity which is comprised of 114 Suras. Well, given that these 114 chapters exist as an entity, well, entities which are comprised of chapters...are defined as books. What is your problem with simply admitting that? Given that these 114 chapters point to something, they must then be, as Allah has stated, guidance. Hence, this guidance, the 114 chapters, are defined as The Reading/Al-Quran. The 114 chapters are comprised 6,600 + ayats, and are listed between two covers from 11 to 1146...called a book. I hope at some point you stop denying the obvious.
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
No, and we can resolve this easily by stating that the prophet who recieved this message did not recieve a book, he recieved inspiration. Inspiration is not a book.
Certainly a literal "book", did not drop out of the blue and into his lap, however, the inspiration he received are the ayats from 11 to 1146, and they now found in a book, just as the works if Marx are found in a book.
PRIESTLet me ask you these things as well Can man look out at the Creation or Al-Kitab and know for a fact 1. fornication is wrong.
Yes, after trial and error
Trial and error is not how Allah guides. Allah, guides through knowledge/certainty. If Allah wanted man to learn through trial and error, then there would be no need for the prophets and the books of scripture.
I could not respond to your other comments, because they just don't make any rational sense, sorry.
Al Islam is not a name, it is a description. So what I would realize is that I need to submit to Univeral Law or else I would continue to suffer from my own actions.
Al-Islam is a definition and not description.
PRIEST Did Allah leave out any necesary/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, that is, the body of work from 11 to 1146, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? YES OR NO. Stop evading the question.
I refuse to answewr a question that I have answered in almost every post that you have written to me since this debate started. If you havent gotten it now, then you will need to go back and re read the other posts.
You haven't answer the question at all. All I want is a one word answer to my question. Either say yes or no. It is that simple and requires no effort. What, you can on and on and on and on about things, over and over and over, of which only you can understand, yet, you cannot type in a two or a three character word and answer my question...what is that about??
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Peace be upon you PB,
Quote
So you are saying that to you, hand of God is a literal hand as well as face? If not , then you need an "IMPLICATION" as well.I'm not talking about hands and faces right now, just books.
I'll reenter the discussion when you are ready to study the WHOLE message, this is why you are having trouble. Also, I am interested in what Someone was stating as well, so I will stop my comments for now.
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PEACE, IDOL,
I'll reenter the discussion when you are ready to study the WHOLE message, this is why you are having trouble. Also, I am interested in what Someone was stating as well, so I will stop my comments for now.
You have it backwards. I'm not having any trouble at all...you are. Anytime someone cannot answer with a simple yes or no to basic Quranic question, well, that is an individual who is having alot of trouble.
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
Thank you for your reply to question #1. I will respond to your reply shortly, insha-Allah. You didn't answer question #2 though? I would like your understanding.
- GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
- Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessary/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
Looking forward to your reply.
Peace,
The god has not left anything related to guidance out of the scripture, as per the scripture itself.
So the answer to your question would be no. but on the other hand, millions do read the scripture headlessly, would it spare them the fire?
PS 18110 doesn't exist.
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peace be upon you priest,
let me ask you a question, what about that which came before us? meaning the previous inspiration written down in books such as this reading (quran), are we not to have trust in them (24, 2285)? im not even saying the "bible", i mean the books in general
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
The god has not left anything related to guidance out of the scripture, as per the scripture itself. So the answer to your question would be no.
Thank you for your reply to my question.
The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
Now, isn't it interesting that Idol, cannot/will not simply answer "no" as you and I have done?
Thanks for an honest response, Someone. Perhaps the others will follow yours, Zenje's and MZ357's lead, and simply answer "no" as well.
but on the other hand, millions do read the scripture headlessly, would it spare them the fire?
What do you mean?
PS 18110 doesn't exist.
Please review Sura 18 again; you are not correct here. The following is 18110.
18110 Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDRIS,
let me ask you a question, what about that which came before us? meaning the previous inspiration written down in books such as this reading (quran), are we not to have trust in them (24, 2285)? im not even saying the "bible", i mean the books in general
It is my understanding that Allah wants us to believe/know that He revealed scriptures before Al-Quran, and, while He does refer us to these scriptures, it is not to follow them in to to as with Al-Quran, but to examine something specific i.e. that Muhammad is mentioned in their books.
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peace be upon you priest,
It is my understanding that Allah wants us to believe/know that He revealed scriptures before Al-Quran, and, while He does refer us to these scriptures, it is not to follow them in to to as with Al-Quran, but to examine something specific i.e. that Muhammad is mentioned in their books.
how do u INFER this out of trusting in His books (2285) which were revealed before us (23)?
after all one of your arguments for Iblis not being a controller (malaika) was that we are to have ABSOLUTE TRUST in the controllers, meaning that they would not go astray and we can rely on them, would this not also apply for the books considering we are supposed to have trust in them as well (2285) if you believe u are correct on your view of iman as ABSOLUTE TRUST then by all means u should accept the previous books as perfect and unable to be changed
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PEACE, IDRIS,
PREIST It is my understanding that Allah wants us to believe/know that He revealed scriptures before Al-Quran, and, while He does refer us to these scriptures, it is not to follow them in to to as with Al-Quran, but to examine something specific i.e. that Muhammad is mentioned in their books.
how do u INFER this out of trusting in His books (2285) which were revealed before us (23)?
If the prior books were still fully intact and comlete in their guidanc for mankind, then what would be the need for Al-Quran? Remember, Allah says that "on this day have I perfected and completed... 53. Also, keep in mind that a party of the Jews changed words from their right places.
after all one of your arguments for Iblis not being a controller (malaika) was that we are to have ABSOLUTE TRUST in the controllers, meaning that they would not go astray and we can rely on them, would this not also apply for the books considering we are supposed to have trust in them as well (2285) if you believe u are correct on your view of iman as ABSOLUTE TRUST then by all means u should accept the previous books as perfect and unable to be changed
We must trust the fact that Allah sent previous books, hence, when He refers us to something in those books, then we are obligated to believe in and accept whatever that might be. However, Allah does not tell us to accept those books in total. If the prior boks could be trsuted in total, then the Jews would not be obligated to accept Allah and His Last Messenger/Message--Al-Quran. Does it make sense for Allah to give mankind books for guidance or one book for guidance? If it your answer is the former, then Allah would contradict Himself, to wit
3929 Allah sets forth an example There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDRIS,
What is your answer to the following question
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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peace be upon you priest,
If the prior books were still fully intact and comlete in their guidanc for mankind, then what would be the need for Al-Quran? Remember, Allah says that "on this day have I perfected and completed... 53. Also, keep in mind that a party of the Jews changed words from their right places.
then I don't think any of them would be complete in guidance if they were all intact, this would kinda undermine your argument of that, perhaps they were just all guides to the universal law (al kitab) im still contemplating over it
speaking on 53 i find it interesting that the term al yawm (the day/time) instead of hatha yawm (this day/time) was used, not sure if it means anything, i doubt it but I'll have to look into it
and i think the thing about the Jews/those who think they are guided (hadoo) refers to taking words out of context to justify their doctrines as trinitarian christians and sunnis do
We must trust the fact that Allah sent previous books, hence, when He refers us to something in those books, then we are obligated to believe in and accept whatever that might be. However, Allah does not tell us to accept those books in total. If the prior boks could be trsuted in total, then the Jews would not be obligated to accept Allah and His Last Messenger/Message--Al-Quran. Does it make sense for Allah to give mankind books for guidance or one book for guidance? If it your answer is the former, then Allah would contradict Himself, to wit
3929 Allah sets forth an example There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know.
I'd honestly like to believe what you said at the beginning and I'm not trying to be argumentative and too literal here but the reading says not just trust that The God has sended books before us but to have trust IN/WITH (bi) that which was sent before us, what if I were idolfree and turned around your argument that having trust in the malaika only meant to believe in their existance, somethin tells me you wouldn't agree with that, does trusting with/in The God mean only believing in His existance, from the context it seems much more than that, for example iblis surely BELIEVED that The God exists but could he be labeled a "mumin"?
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peace be upon you priest,
What is your answer to this question?
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
im thinking about it, give me some time, does this mean that before this reading (quran) that all people couldn't be fully guided cause they didn't have all the details to be so? or not even before this reading, before this verse? did God leave out any detail from the book revealed to Moses (6154)?
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PEACE, IDRIS,
then I don't think any of them would be complete in guidance if they were all intact, this would kinda undermine your argument of that, perhaps they were just all guides to the universal law (al kitab) im still contemplating over it
I'm not certain what you are saying here, please re-phrase, thanks.
and i think the thing about the Jews/those who think they are guided (hadoo) refers to taking words out of context to justify their doctrines as trinitarian christians and sunnis do
I think it is more than that. For example, what food did Allah forbid the Jews, that is, did Allah forbid the Jews to eat swine?
I'd honestly like to believe what you said at the beginning and I'm not trying to be argumentative and too literal here but the reading says not just trust that The God has sended books before us but to have trust IN/WITH (bi) that which was sent before us, what if I were idolfree and turned around your argument that having trust in the malaika only meant to believe in their existance, somethin tells me you wouldn't agree with that, does trusting with/in The God mean only believing in His existance, from the context it seems much more than that, for example iblis surely BELIEVED that The God exists but could he be labeled a "mumin"?
According to 1649-50, the malaika never disobey Allah's commnands. Let me ask you this, are the prior books free of doubt?
Are you going to answer my question to you?
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peace be upon you priest
then I don't think any of them would be complete in guidance if they were all intact, this would kinda undermine your argument of that, perhaps they were just all guides to the universal law (al kitab) im still contemplating over it
I'm not certain what you are saying here, please re-phrase, thanks.
I was saying that if they were all intact and complete in guidance it would undermine your argument of this reading being the only possible guide we can follow, but according to your views of iman (trust) it would seem that all of the books would be in tact, I don't think that would take away from the necessity of this reading but only refute your argument of this reading being complete in details
I think it is more than that. For example, what food did Allah forbid the Jews, that is, did Allah forbid the Jews to eat swine?
I'm not sure exactly how u are making the connection here, The God did forbid for "those who think they are guided" (hadoo) a bunch of food that they forbid for themselves though, explain to me what u mean
According to 1649-50, the malaika never disobey Allah's commnands. Let me ask you this, are the prior books free of doubt?
i know, that was one of your arguments in that debate, define for me what belief/trust is using the dictionary which u seem to enjoy so much, apply it to books, then answer for me that last question and maybe we can see eye to eye
Are you going to answer my question to you?
give me some time to think about it actually, i still have some questions
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
Peace be upon you brother Priest,
Please respond to the following
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
You have limited the guidance in a very short area.
As per the verses you have quoted above 18110 and 649, they contain words like "'Amila Thaalihan" and "Ya'mal Thaalihan". What does this mean to you? "Thaalih 'Amal" means "Corrected Deeds", which contains every thing. You have just limited it to Shirk only.
Again in 187 as you have quoted for successfully passing the test of conduct, it says "What ever is on Earth". Again it includes everything.
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
According to the above definiton of a book, Al-Quran, that is, 11 to 114, constitutes a book, and the problem/task it was sent to address was...guidance .
Yes, as I said before, you are correct that Al-Quraan IS a book. But it cannot be THE Book or AL-Kitaab. I have given you so many reasons about why Al-Quraan cannot be Al-Kitaab brother. But it seems that you have just ignored them.
Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .
Oops shock Are you trying to correct Allah or by mistake you have misquoted this verse? 53 never contain any such word as Al-Quraan or Huda/Hidayat. It is simply talking about Al-Deen which is a seperate issue.
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
You are trying trap the people who are in discussion on this thread brother. You know well, when we are discussing about the guidance or Al-Quraan or Al-Kitaab, there is no way to answer in Yes or No.
For an example If a person just started getting guidance and he died before be reach 100% of the guidance. What will be his final destiny? Will he go to hell? Yes or No?
If yes, why? He was on guidance.
If no, why? He was not fully guided.This type of question you were asking brother. Please be fair in your discussions. We are not here to WIN, but I am most of us I found to be in a search of Truth.
Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all
Looking forward to your reply.
We have not yet started discussing about details brother. But about the Guidance, both got the guidance
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind
Al-Kitaab is the guidance for righteousHope you understand.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Peace be upon you Priest and Idris,
PEACE, IDRIS,
What is your answer to the following question
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Are we discussing English literature in here?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
I don't find any relation of your question with the above mention matter. How did you get "Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance" for Al-Quraan when it is not mentioned in your above messege.
Simply, when Allah says this (Al-Quraan) is the guidance for the mankind and that (Al-Kitaab) is the guidance of rigtheous. It does not mean any person who is Ummi (one who dont know what Al-Kitaab is) landing up in hell. He can also get the guidance from Al-Quraan that is for everyone.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Peace be upon you PB,
Just for the record. Here on page SIX, PB states
Now, isn't it interesting that Idol, cannot/will not simply answer "no" as you and I have done?
Thanks for an honest response, Someone. Perhaps the others will follow yours, Zenje's and MZ357's lead, and simply answer "no" as well.
But WAAAAY back on page TWO we find
PB
B. Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Al-Kitab?Idolfree1
No, the universe is fully detailed we just have to take it serious, not as a game/sport as the God says many do.PB
C. If you maintain that, Al-Kitab is not Al-Quran, is Al-Quran, then, fully detailed, in that, as it must be part of Al-Kitab which is fully detailed?Idolfree1
This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed. Lets work this out, if the trees were pens and the oceans ink, the words of the God would never run out. How many trees and oceans do you think it took to write the 114 chapters of this book? Not even one tree or ocean was used up. There is much more to be inspired to the human, but you must go within, as Musa did. This reading(quran) is only a guide to what you must do to get the rest.Go figure! ?
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Peace be upon you PB,
When you use the word "scripture" are you referring to "kitaab" or "quraan"?