=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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PEACE, IDRIS,
What is your answer to the following question
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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peace be upon you priest,
If the prior books were still fully intact and comlete in their guidanc for mankind, then what would be the need for Al-Quran? Remember, Allah says that "on this day have I perfected and completed... 53. Also, keep in mind that a party of the Jews changed words from their right places.
then I don't think any of them would be complete in guidance if they were all intact, this would kinda undermine your argument of that, perhaps they were just all guides to the universal law (al kitab) im still contemplating over it
speaking on 53 i find it interesting that the term al yawm (the day/time) instead of hatha yawm (this day/time) was used, not sure if it means anything, i doubt it but I'll have to look into it
and i think the thing about the Jews/those who think they are guided (hadoo) refers to taking words out of context to justify their doctrines as trinitarian christians and sunnis do
We must trust the fact that Allah sent previous books, hence, when He refers us to something in those books, then we are obligated to believe in and accept whatever that might be. However, Allah does not tell us to accept those books in total. If the prior boks could be trsuted in total, then the Jews would not be obligated to accept Allah and His Last Messenger/Message--Al-Quran. Does it make sense for Allah to give mankind books for guidance or one book for guidance? If it your answer is the former, then Allah would contradict Himself, to wit
3929 Allah sets forth an example There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know.
I'd honestly like to believe what you said at the beginning and I'm not trying to be argumentative and too literal here but the reading says not just trust that The God has sended books before us but to have trust IN/WITH (bi) that which was sent before us, what if I were idolfree and turned around your argument that having trust in the malaika only meant to believe in their existance, somethin tells me you wouldn't agree with that, does trusting with/in The God mean only believing in His existance, from the context it seems much more than that, for example iblis surely BELIEVED that The God exists but could he be labeled a "mumin"?
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peace be upon you priest,
What is your answer to this question?
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
im thinking about it, give me some time, does this mean that before this reading (quran) that all people couldn't be fully guided cause they didn't have all the details to be so? or not even before this reading, before this verse? did God leave out any detail from the book revealed to Moses (6154)?
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PEACE, IDRIS,
then I don't think any of them would be complete in guidance if they were all intact, this would kinda undermine your argument of that, perhaps they were just all guides to the universal law (al kitab) im still contemplating over it
I'm not certain what you are saying here, please re-phrase, thanks.
and i think the thing about the Jews/those who think they are guided (hadoo) refers to taking words out of context to justify their doctrines as trinitarian christians and sunnis do
I think it is more than that. For example, what food did Allah forbid the Jews, that is, did Allah forbid the Jews to eat swine?
I'd honestly like to believe what you said at the beginning and I'm not trying to be argumentative and too literal here but the reading says not just trust that The God has sended books before us but to have trust IN/WITH (bi) that which was sent before us, what if I were idolfree and turned around your argument that having trust in the malaika only meant to believe in their existance, somethin tells me you wouldn't agree with that, does trusting with/in The God mean only believing in His existance, from the context it seems much more than that, for example iblis surely BELIEVED that The God exists but could he be labeled a "mumin"?
According to 1649-50, the malaika never disobey Allah's commnands. Let me ask you this, are the prior books free of doubt?
Are you going to answer my question to you?
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peace be upon you priest
then I don't think any of them would be complete in guidance if they were all intact, this would kinda undermine your argument of that, perhaps they were just all guides to the universal law (al kitab) im still contemplating over it
I'm not certain what you are saying here, please re-phrase, thanks.
I was saying that if they were all intact and complete in guidance it would undermine your argument of this reading being the only possible guide we can follow, but according to your views of iman (trust) it would seem that all of the books would be in tact, I don't think that would take away from the necessity of this reading but only refute your argument of this reading being complete in details
I think it is more than that. For example, what food did Allah forbid the Jews, that is, did Allah forbid the Jews to eat swine?
I'm not sure exactly how u are making the connection here, The God did forbid for "those who think they are guided" (hadoo) a bunch of food that they forbid for themselves though, explain to me what u mean
According to 1649-50, the malaika never disobey Allah's commnands. Let me ask you this, are the prior books free of doubt?
i know, that was one of your arguments in that debate, define for me what belief/trust is using the dictionary which u seem to enjoy so much, apply it to books, then answer for me that last question and maybe we can see eye to eye
Are you going to answer my question to you?
give me some time to think about it actually, i still have some questions
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
Peace be upon you brother Priest,
Please respond to the following
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
You have limited the guidance in a very short area.
As per the verses you have quoted above 18110 and 649, they contain words like "'Amila Thaalihan" and "Ya'mal Thaalihan". What does this mean to you? "Thaalih 'Amal" means "Corrected Deeds", which contains every thing. You have just limited it to Shirk only.
Again in 187 as you have quoted for successfully passing the test of conduct, it says "What ever is on Earth". Again it includes everything.
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
According to the above definiton of a book, Al-Quran, that is, 11 to 114, constitutes a book, and the problem/task it was sent to address was...guidance .
Yes, as I said before, you are correct that Al-Quraan IS a book. But it cannot be THE Book or AL-Kitaab. I have given you so many reasons about why Al-Quraan cannot be Al-Kitaab brother. But it seems that you have just ignored them.
Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .
Oops shock Are you trying to correct Allah or by mistake you have misquoted this verse? 53 never contain any such word as Al-Quraan or Huda/Hidayat. It is simply talking about Al-Deen which is a seperate issue.
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
You are trying trap the people who are in discussion on this thread brother. You know well, when we are discussing about the guidance or Al-Quraan or Al-Kitaab, there is no way to answer in Yes or No.
For an example If a person just started getting guidance and he died before be reach 100% of the guidance. What will be his final destiny? Will he go to hell? Yes or No?
If yes, why? He was on guidance.
If no, why? He was not fully guided.This type of question you were asking brother. Please be fair in your discussions. We are not here to WIN, but I am most of us I found to be in a search of Truth.
Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all
Looking forward to your reply.
We have not yet started discussing about details brother. But about the Guidance, both got the guidance
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind
Al-Kitaab is the guidance for righteousHope you understand.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Peace be upon you Priest and Idris,
PEACE, IDRIS,
What is your answer to the following question
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Are we discussing English literature in here?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
I don't find any relation of your question with the above mention matter. How did you get "Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance" for Al-Quraan when it is not mentioned in your above messege.
Simply, when Allah says this (Al-Quraan) is the guidance for the mankind and that (Al-Kitaab) is the guidance of rigtheous. It does not mean any person who is Ummi (one who dont know what Al-Kitaab is) landing up in hell. He can also get the guidance from Al-Quraan that is for everyone.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Peace be upon you PB,
Just for the record. Here on page SIX, PB states
Now, isn't it interesting that Idol, cannot/will not simply answer "no" as you and I have done?
Thanks for an honest response, Someone. Perhaps the others will follow yours, Zenje's and MZ357's lead, and simply answer "no" as well.
But WAAAAY back on page TWO we find
PB
B. Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Al-Kitab?Idolfree1
No, the universe is fully detailed we just have to take it serious, not as a game/sport as the God says many do.PB
C. If you maintain that, Al-Kitab is not Al-Quran, is Al-Quran, then, fully detailed, in that, as it must be part of Al-Kitab which is fully detailed?Idolfree1
This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed. Lets work this out, if the trees were pens and the oceans ink, the words of the God would never run out. How many trees and oceans do you think it took to write the 114 chapters of this book? Not even one tree or ocean was used up. There is much more to be inspired to the human, but you must go within, as Musa did. This reading(quran) is only a guide to what you must do to get the rest.Go figure! ?
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Peace be upon you PB,
When you use the word "scripture" are you referring to "kitaab" or "quraan"?
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Peace be upon you PB,
5
3...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...Yawm = period of time. The God did not take a "day" out of life to complete the SYSTEM(deen), we were born into the COMPLETE SYSTEM. It is this TIME OF THE SYSTEM that we are being tested in. The SYSTEM was not completed on a "day" 1400 years ago.
The God is controller of this system of time
"maliki yamn adeen" (chapter 1)
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PEACE, IDRIS,
I was saying that if they were all intact and complete in guidance it would undermine your argument of this reading being the only possible guide we can follow,
Does Allah tell us to follow the prior books for guidance or this Quran? Were the prior books sent as guidance to all of mankind or just to their respective peoples?
but according to your views of iman (trust) it would seem that all of the books would be in tact, I don't think that would take away from the necessity of this reading but only refute your argument of this reading being complete in details
When they were first revealed I'm certain that they were all intact, however, did they remain this way. This is why I asked you what food did Allah probibit the Jews. Please look into that in Al-Quran.
I'm not sure exactly how u are making the connection here, The God did forbid for "those who think they are guided" (hadoo) a bunch of food that they forbid for themselves though, explain to me what u mean
Look into Al-Quran and then tell me.
give me some time to think about it actually, i still have some questions
How much time does it take to answer such a straight forward question?
Anyway, looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDOL,
Why do seem to have no problem answering questions and pontificating on things not asked, yet, you continue to refuse to answer the following...what is that about? Please answer...yes or no.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
You have limited the guidance in a very short area.
As per the verses you have quoted above 18110 and 649, they contain words like "'Amila Thaalihan" and "Ya'mal Thaalihan". What does this mean to you? "Thaalih 'Amal" means "Corrected Deeds", which contains every thing. You have just limited it to Shirk only.
Shirk, is the antithesis of Tauhid Allah, hence, Allah's guidance, is to warn mankind away from it. Allah will not forgive those who die in shirk, because to do shirk, is to be a rejector of Tauhid Allah. Please read 18110 and 572.
572 They do blaspheme who say "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
Again in 187 as you have quoted for successfully passing the test of conduct, it says "What ever is on Earth". Again it includes everything.
You misunderstand. Whatever is on earth, is an embellishment for the earth. The test of conduct is directed a human beings .
Yes, as I said before, you are correct that Al-Quraan IS a book. But it cannot be THE Book or AL-Kitaab. I have given you so many reasons about why Al-Quraan cannot be Al-Kitaab brother. But it seems that you have just ignored them.
Well, given that you admit Al-Quran is a book, then how do you reject that the following ayats are talking about Al-Quran as kitab.
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
What Book is that guide?
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance.
These two ayats, then, identify Al-Quran as the Book of guidance sent to mankind, and that it is fully detalied.
Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .
Oops shock Are you trying to correct Allah or by mistake you have misquoted this verse? 53 never contain any such word as Al-Quraan or Huda/Hidayat. It is simply talking about Al-Deen which is a seperate issue.
The point I was making with 53 is, Al-Islam, the Deen of Allah, is complete and perfect. Al-Quran, that by which He guides to and explains what He means by submission to Him--Al-Islam, likewise, must be perfect and complete, otherwise, Al-Quran would misguide mankind, do you see?
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
You are trying trap the people who are in discussion on this thread brother. You know well, when we are discussing about the guidance or Al-Quraan or Al-Kitaab, there is no way to answer in Yes or No.
What are you talking about? Of course you can answer yes or no, and at least four people here have answer "no". Re-read the above definition for guidance. Those aren't my ayats, but Allah's. No excuses, Ashuura.
For an example If a person just started getting guidance and he died before be reach 100% of the guidance. What will be his final destiny? Will he go to hell? Yes or No?
I don't know, however, the person was assured of one thing though, and that is...Al-Quran, was/is...100% fully detailed guidance.
This type of question you were asking brother. Please be fair in your discussions. We are not here to WIN, but I am most of us I found to be in a search of Truth.
Of course the question is fair, and it is the difference between shirk and tauhid. Why do you continue to make excuses. Just answer yes or no.
Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all
Looking forward to your reply.
We have not yet started discussing about details brother. But about the Guidance, both got the guidance
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind
Al-Kitaab is the guidance for righteousWell, given this is your position then, is either of them lacking in one single detail...relative to/specific to/pertinent to the guidance that they are supposed to provide? Yes or no? Please answer.
Lookig forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDRIS,
Just for the record. Here on page SIX, PB states
[Idolfree1This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed.
Go figure! ?
What you've overlooked, which I didn't was, what exactly did he mean by Al-Quran is not fully detailed? However, he is correct, Al-Quran isn't fully detailed...except for one thing. Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, is fully detailed. You will notice that he will not answer the following question, perhaps you can query him as to why he won't. You don't mind querying me, so, do the same with him, fair enough?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your response.
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peace be upon you priest,
Does Allah tell us to follow the prior books for guidance or this Quran? Were the prior books sent as guidance to all of mankind or just to their respective peoples?
He tells other people to follow these books (5144-14 would The God do so if there was no guidance contained in them? as for your last statement it seems, it seems just to the people who recieved them also according to the quoted signs
When they were first revealed I'm certain that they were all intact, however, did they remain this way. This is why I asked you what food did Allah probibit the Jews. Please look into that in Al-Quran.
let me guess your argument will be that the food forbidden in the torah we have nowadays is different then what is mentioned in these verses or not in there
6138-139
And they said ?These are livestock and crops that are restricted, and none shall eat from them except as we please,? by their claims; and livestock whose backs are forbidden, and livestock over which they do not remember The God?s description as invention against Him. He will recompense them for what they invented.
And they said ?What is in the bellies of these livestock is purely for our males and forbidden for our wives, and if comes out dead, then they will be partners in it.? The God will recompense them for what they describe. He is Wise, Knowledgeable.6143-144
Eight pairs from the lambs two, and from the goats two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!?
And from the camels two, and from the cattle two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Or were you witnesses when The God ordered you with this?? Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about The God to misguide the people without knowledge. The God does not guide the wicked people.6146
And for the guided We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.I think there's another verse(s) I couldn't find it
Look into Al-Quran and then tell me.
I didn't find any prohibition of swine/pig for "jews"
How much time does it take to answer such a straight forward question?
I have several questions regarding the verse you posted, do you think that just because the system was completed on that day then that makes this reading complete? what if the books that came before it are included in the details making up the system? this is what I'm talking about, you can't take every argument you make as absolute truth as if its ordered by God
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PEACE, IDRIS,
He tells other people to follow these books (5144-14 would The God do so if there was no guidance contained in them? as for your last statement it seems, it seems just to the people who recieved them also according to the quoted signs
There is no...5144-148. Anyway, I never claimed that there was no guidance in them, rather, it is my understanding that...there is some guidance in them , however, Allah, does not say to follow them in wholesale for one's guidance.
let me guess your argument will be that the food forbidden in the torah we have nowadays is different then what is mentioned in these verses or not in there
6146 And for the guided We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
I didn't find any prohibition of swine/pig for "jews"
Yes, you are correct. It is my understnading that, the Jews, were never forbidden to eat pork, yet, their scripture says so
Deut. 177-8 Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
Doesn't this indicate that the prior scriptures have been altered, hence, as as bodies of work, they are not reliable for guidance?
I have several questions regarding the verse you posted, do you think that just because the system was completed on that day then that makes this reading complete? what if the books that came before it are included in the details making up the system? this is what I'm talking about, you can't take every argument you make as absolute truth as if its ordered by God.
You didn't answer my question at all. The questions you answered, were the questions I asked in you in response to your questions.
The other books are not relevent to the question that I asked you. No matter what your position is on the prior books, Al-Quran, still stands on its own, hence, you can answer the question right now, what is the problem?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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peace be upon you priest,
The other books are not relevent to the question that I asked you. No matter what your position is on the prior books, Al-Quran, still stands on its own, hence, you can answer the question right now, what is the problem?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
at the moment I would answer "no" but I still have some questions and problems with your question
could details remaining in the previous books, if altered, be necessary for guidance? this would relate to the question because 53 speaks of the system being complete and not this reading, and the previous books are included in the system
does one need this reading to not end up going to hell?
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PEACE, IDRIS,
at the moment I would answer "no" but I still have some questions and problems with your question
All praises due to Allah. The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
Of course, what other possible answer can be rendered? The thought that Allah, gave mankind a book which is missing details for his guidance, knowing the consequence of that...HELL, is simply ridiculous and probably blasphemous.
could details remaining in the previous books, if altered, be necessary for guidance? this would relate to the question because 53 speaks of the system being complete and not this reading, and the previous books are included in the system
Are the prior books necessary/indispensible/pertinent to our guidance?
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a GUIDE and a mercy to all who believe.
Al-Quran, clearly, is the Book being referred to in the above ayats as being fully detailed - GUIDE, to wit
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...
Thus
2951 And is it not enough/sufficient for them that we have sent down to you the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
does one need this reading to not end up going to hell?
I don't know.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
Peace be upon you brother Priest,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
You have limited the guidance in a very short area.As per the verses you have quoted above 18110 and 649, they contain words like "'Amila Thaalihan" and "Ya'mal Thaalihan". What does this mean to you? "Thaalih 'Amal" means "Corrected Deeds", which contains every thing. You have just limited it to Shirk only.
Shirk, is the antithesis of Tauhid Allah, hence, Allah's guidance, is to warn mankind away from it. Allah will not forgive those who die in shirk, because to do shirk, is to be a rejector of Tauhid Allah. Please read 18110 and 572.
Brother, will you please make it clear to me what exactly are we discussing? Shirk or Tawheed or Details or Guidance or Perfect or Explained or Complete or The Book or Al-Islam or Al-Deen or Righteousness or what?
You are not allowing me to stand in one place for discussion brother. And please, please do not call it an excuse that I am looking for. I don't have to actually.
And still you do NOT look at what I have given you before. But you sticked to your question and it seems that you are trying to put you understanding in my head.
572 They do blaspheme who say "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
I do agree with the verses, but what relation it got with our discussion, I still dont understand.
Again in 187 as you have quoted for successfully passing the test of conduct, it says "What ever is on Earth". Again it includes everything.
You misunderstand. Whatever is on earth, is an embellishment for the earth. The test of conduct is directed a human beings .
Human beings = men and jinn?
Please come up with the clear reference from Al-Quraan.
Yes, as I said before, you are correct that Al-Quraan IS a book. But it cannot be THE Book or AL-Kitaab. I have given you so many reasons about why Al-Quraan cannot be Al-Kitaab brother. But it seems that you have just ignored them.
Well, given that you admit Al-Quran is a book, then how do you reject that the following ayats are talking about Al-Quran as kitab.
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
What Book is that guide?
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance.
These two ayats, then, identify Al-Quran as the Book of guidance sent to mankind, and that it is fully detalied.
How do I reject that ayat talking about Al-Quraan as Kitaab? No way, It is very clear verse, how can I reject it?
But you are twisting the words. None of the verses said or refer to Al-Quraan as THE Book. How can you say "identify Al-Quraan as THE Book of guidance"? Where this AL or THE come from?
Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .
Oops shock Are you trying to correct Allah or by mistake you have misquoted this verse? 53 never contain any such word as Al-Quraan or Huda/Hidayat. It is simply talking about Al-Deen which is a seperate issue.
The point I was making with 53 is, Al-Islam, the Deen of Allah, is complete and perfect. Al-Quran, that by which He guides to and explains what He means by submission to Him--Al-Islam, likewise, must be perfect and complete, otherwise, Al-Quran would misguide mankind, do you see?
Again you are mixing up Al-Quraan and Al-Islaam brother. Please, if you don't agree with me, tell clearly, I don't know your intentions but Allah knows well. Fear Allah.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
Again Yes or No?
Well, given this is your position then, is either of them lacking in one single detail...relative to/specific to/pertinent to the guidance that they are supposed to provide? Yes or no? Please answer.
Again? Ya Allah help me.
OK, now, what is the guidance? Let me explain you what is it. What you explain does not contain any clear reference from Al-Quraan. But you are just picking up different verses and making a chain of it as you like. But see how Allah explains everything. Alhamdulillah.
"Those who believe in the unseen, and uphold the Salaat, and from Our provisions to them they spend." 23
"And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain." 24
"These are the ones guided by their Lord, and these are the winners." 25
From where are they guided by their Lord? This is the guidance.
May Allah guide us towards the correct path.
Regards,
MMKhan