Ramadan 2005
-
Peace be upon you Beatnik,
The reason I asked if any of you were disconcerted by the fact the pagans celebrate the summer solstice is because, well they're pagans! It might sit uneasy to be celebrating the same thing as people who do not believe in God, a unique situation, as always.
The word "pagan" is a label to try to discredit other cultures. The dictionary states that it refers to people who have a polytheistic religion, but who is doing the labeling? We find that JUST LIKE this message, where the God is DESCRIBED by different Attributes, but is still ONE, so did the ancient Africans of Kemet and the Native American Indians, and MANY MANY other cultures.
But the OPPRESSORS of mankind, who knew not true spirituality, who only knew brute force, could not comprehend these philosophies, so when the moon was meditated upon for its receptive effects and timing elements, they were accussed of worshipping the moon, or if the sun was meditated upon so we might know when the summer solstice comes, the same thing. When the different Attributes of teh ONE where spoken of, such as Amen Ra (the Hidden Energy), people claimed "those pagans worsship sun gods!", not understanding the least about spirituality themselves.
So do not give any credit to that word pagan, it will give you preconcieved ideas when you are trying to use balanced reasoning.
-
Peace idolfree,
Various faiths may have great insight and share qualities with Islam, but thats not what I'm really talking about.
I'm looking through history for precedents. I'm looking for any instance of Ramadan specifically being celebrated during the summer solstice, if so, then that helps Ayman's article. If not, then why not?
It is the same as if the date decided upon in this thread were December 25th, we should be allowed to explore any historical significance from an Islamic perspective.
None of the beliefs I came upon while surfing around about the summer solstice were close to the Islam we know (such as the belief that the grand sexual union of a goddess and god occuring in early May at Beltaine. Since its unlucky to compete with the deities, many couples delay their weddings until June). Even though, yes, they may recognise some of God's attributes and the complex way in which life operates on this planet, my interest is in any historical precedent for Ramadan. I think it would be beneficial to us all if we were able to find any, and if not, then we should ponder why not.
This site for example has a list of various styles of celebration, interestingly enough the Christian version has a feast as opposed to a fast, and there's also an interesting entry on a Jewish religious group who used a device to tell the summer solstice.
-
Greetings with peace,
The reason I asked if any of you were disconcerted by the fact the pagans celebrate the summer solstice is because, well they're pagans! It might sit uneasy to be celebrating the same thing as people who do not believe in God, a unique situation, as always.
What makes you think people are going to celebrate the summer solstice? Is the summer solstice the focus?
Also, it would be interesting if we had uncovered any previous example of solstice devices being used in Saudi Arabia, but I havent found any yet.
Why would you want to look for guidance in Saudi Arabia?
Anwar Azim -
What makes you think people are going to celebrate the summer solstice? Is the summer solstice the focus?
Read my post above, there are various different styles of 'celebration', all focused on the longest day of the year for some reason or other. If we found a historical example of muslims begining their fast on the summer solstice every year it would help Ayman's article and help us learn more. I'm not so much concerned with peoples appreciation for the effects of the sun on the planet and human beings, I'm more interested in Ramadan-specific traits such as fasting, feeding the poor, helping the needy, for a set amount of days (10 for example).
Why would you want to look for guidance in Saudi Arabia?
Anwar AzimThe Quran is in Arabic. You would think that maybe at some point in Saudi history there would be some evidence of Ramadan being set during the summer solstice period? I'm not looking for guidance in that country, I'm looking for precedents and evidence.
Am I not stating myself properly or something? I dont see the problem in investigating history (before creation of other hadith) to look for examples of Ramadan starting June 21/22 every year. If there arent, we should discuss why. Lost records can be one reason, or maybe it never has been set during that date, if so why not? I'm not exactly an academic, but I would find that interesting, rather than just say "Ok, Ramadan is June 21/22 every year! End of story!" and just be done with it.
-
Peace be upon you Beatnik,
Various faiths may have great insight and share qualities with Islam, but thats not what I'm really talking about.
But this is where we shouuld start. You are LIMITING your range by using the word "islam" to mean a religious sect. A person can be either one who submits to Universal Law(God's Law) or be one who rejects Universal Law. We are not to deal with "sects", we deal with Truthful Information only. Ithas nothing to do with "What did so called Muslims do" in the past, it has to do with what is the right path of life.
I'm looking through history for precedents.
So whats wrong with the precedents of those people that have been labeled "pagans"? Because they did not have the TITLE "MUSLIM", does that mean they did not SUBMIT?
I'm looking for any instance of Ramadan specifically being celebrated during the summer solstice, if so, then that helps Ayman's article. If not, then why not?
Are you taking the word "ramadhan" to be a title? Or a description of a time of extreme heat?
It is the same as if the date decided upon in this thread were December 25th, we should be allowed to explore any historical significance from an Islamic perspective.
Thats what I mean, what is an "Islamic Perspective"? That is sectarian and wrong according to the God who states that we have nothing to do with sects. We should always be looking to verify a process on tyhe basis of if it WORKS or not, not if it was part of "Arab Religion".
None of the beliefs I came upon while surfing around about the summer solstice were close to the Islam we know
Is not the Summer Solstice, the 4 days when the days are longest, not connected with extreme heat(ramadhan)? Why are you concerned about a religion named "Islam" rather than finding out how MANKIND is suppossed to submit to Universal Law? Did Abraham worry about such a connection to "ISLAM RElIGION"? Or did Abraham study the universe and purify his mind of incorrect thinking?
(such as the belief that the grand sexual union of a goddess and god occuring in early May at Beltaine. Since its unlucky to compete with the deities, many couples delay their weddings until June)
The Will and The Spirit, since the very beginning of recorded "religion" have been metaphorized as a man and woman. When they come together it is symbolized as the male impregnating the female. In thie reading, yu can substitute that for your Self impregnating the NAFS(Spirit/Mind).
Even though, yes, they may recognise some of God's attributes and the complex way in which life operates on this planet, my interest is in any historical precedent for Ramadan. I think it would be beneficial to us all if we were able to find any, and if not, then we should ponder why not.
There is overwhelming historical evidence, but you don't consider these people as "submitters to God" because they did not have the TITLE "MUSLIM". This is the error of NAMING vs. Describing that we are warned against.
This site for example has a list of various styles of celebration, interestingly enough the Christian version has a feast as opposed to a fast, and there's also an interesting entry on a Jewish religious group who used a device to tell the summer solstice.
Yes, there are all kinds of silimarities because the truth is many times given to people who don't understand and they make slight variations in what is suppossed to be done. Also, there are people who DO KNOW the truth, but change the truth in order to confuse and control mankind.
-
But this is where we shouuld start. You are LIMITING your range by using the word "islam" to mean a religious sect. A person can be either one who submits to Universal Law(God's Law) or be one who rejects Universal Law. We are not to deal with "sects", we deal with Truthful Information only. Ithas nothing to do with "What did so called Muslims do" in the past, it has to do with what is the right path of life.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Islam not mean Submission? Submission to the straight path, the system of The One God? Or am I labelling? How do you go through life without labelling anything? We have words and language for a reason, to specifially label in the first place. You are correct in what you stated above, people either submit to the universal law or they dont, and only MUSLIMS do, thats why they're called muslims, to differentiate them from people who dont follow the law. A muslim isnt someone of a specific race, or someone who speaks a certain language, or dresses a certain way. They live by the only perfect system, unlike the type of people who celebrate and believe in male and female gods, and have 'magical rituals', etc, etc.
I'm not dismissing entire civilisations or groups of peoples and all their acheivements. I'm marking a clear line between muslim and non-muslim, Islamic and non-Islamic. Sects have nothing to do with it, we all know how to live on the straight path, and it has a name Islam.
Because they did not have the TITLE "MUSLIM", does that mean they did not SUBMIT?
It has nothing to do with titles, its to do with actions. If they did not live like muslims, then they're not submitters, are they?
Are you taking the word "ramadhan" to be a title? Or a description of a time of extreme heat?
Ramadan as defined in this thread and ayman's article, as a way of recognising via a full moon in June, and living out the period of 10 days of fasting, and goodwill to others.
Yes, there are all kinds of silimarities because the truth is many times given to people who don't understand and they make slight variations in what is suppossed to be done. Also, there are people who DO KNOW the truth, but change the truth in order to confuse and control mankind.
I would apply this to the people of the past and present who are not in a state of Islam, I doubt people see 'the will and spirit' but rather literally see deities as male and female, and associate it with the summer solstice.
Idolfree, I know you dont like the words 'Islam' and 'Muslim', but they exist, and some people use them negatively, but others use them to recognise traits. These words exist for a reason, just like other words exist for a reason, and as outlined in the Quran (or Reading as you would prefer) they stand for Submission and Submitters of a system of living for The One God. Every word that comes out of your mouth, or through your fingers is a label, its inevitable. We're all trying to journey back to the source; the Creator. What matters is actions not wordings. Thats why I'm looking to the past to basically validate Ayman's article, because I still have doubts in me, I'm not at ease. I want to confirm for myself that Ramadan is 10 days, that its every year around the summer solstice, just like the Quran recommends validate facts for your own peace of mind.
-
Peace be upon you Beatnik,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Islam not mean Submission?
Yes, peaceful submission. But tell me, why have you CAPATALIZED these two words? Are they proper nouns/TITLES?
Submission to the straight path, the system of The One God? Or am I labelling?
The reason you are Capatalizing them is because in your mind, they are TITLES, you still have some purifying to do in that area, respectfully.
How do you go through life without labelling anything?
Who said I do not label anything? I see a Cat and I call it a CAT, etc. But we are not discussing NAMES to be labels, we are discussing descriptions.
We have words and language for a reason, to specifially label in the first place. You are correct in what you stated above, people either submit to the universal law or they dont
Notice how when you were thinking properly above, you did NOT CAPATALIZE the word "submit" D Now when you go on next to try to prove your point, you go back to the capatalization. Please just think about it for a while.
, and only MUSLIMS do, thats why they're called muslims, to differentiate them from people who dont follow the law.
But we can discredit that by only a few examples, does Osama Bin Laden follow the Universal Law? Do the brothers in my neighborhood who wear long beards and short pants and yell "asalaamulaikum" all day yet sell drugs, womanize, etc follow Universal Law?
So is it really a TITLE? Can someone be a follower of Universal Law only because they were born in Saudi Arabia to a family who gives themselves the TITLE "MUSLIM"?
A muslim isnt someone of a specific race, or someone who speaks a certain language, or dresses a certain way. They live by the only perfect system, unlike the type of people who celebrate and believe in male and female gods, and have 'magical rituals', etc, etc.
Male and female "gods" are SYMBOLISM, but you have not studied it, so you reject it without proper knowlegde. Its only a different way of saying the same things. You have to study the male and female principle in all things, that is why all of the messengers SEEM to be male, and why the NAFS(spirit/mind) which RECIEVES is Feminine. And these MALE message must impregnate the FEMALE mind to bring forth the WILL(isa).
There are many ways to bring this information, but if you enclose yourself in a "religion"(sect) then you wil rejoice only in YOUR FORM of delivering the message and reject the VERY SAME MESSAGE from those before us. The God says for us to say "We trust in what was descended to us and those before us".
I'm not dismissing entire civilisations or groups of peoples and all their acheivements. I'm marking a clear line between muslim and non-muslim, Islamic and non-Islamic. Sects have nothing to do with it, we all know how to live on the straight path, and it has a name Islam.
It has a description. Marking a clear line based on TITLES/NAMES is sectarian, the only way to truly analize is based on ACTIONS, do they follow universal law or not?
Quote
Because they did not have the TITLE "MUSLIM", does that mean they did not SUBMIT?It has nothing to do with titles, its to do with actions. If they did not live like muslims, then they're not submitters, are they?
In your response, you used two words meaning the same thing, one in arabic, one in english. Further, the statement "if they do not live like muslims" implies that it is a TITLE, but you just got finished saying it has nothing to do with titles. Do you see the confusion? Instead you should have written "If they do not live in submission, then they cannot be described as submissive", and noner of that implies any TITLE.
Quote
Are you taking the word "ramadhan" to be a title? Or a description of a time of extreme heat?Ramadan as defined in this thread and ayman's article, as a way of recognising via a full moon in June, and living out the period of 10 days of fasting, and goodwill to others.
What is YOUR understanding of the word "ramadhan"?
Quote
Yes, there are all kinds of silimarities because the truth is many times given to people who don't understand and they make slight variations in what is suppossed to be done. Also, there are people who DO KNOW the truth, but change the truth in order to confuse and control mankind.I would apply this to the people of the past and present who are not in a state of Islam, I doubt people see 'the will and spirit' but rather literally see deities as male and female, and associate it with the summer solstice.
That is why we were given intellect and are responsible for what we see, hear, etc.
Idolfree, I know you dont like the words 'Islam' and 'Muslim', but they exist, and some people use them negatively, but others use them to recognise traits. These words exist for a reason, just like other words exist for a reason, and as outlined in the Quran (or Reading as you would prefer) they stand for Submission and Submitters of a system of living for The One God. Every word that comes out of your mouth, or through your fingers is a label, its inevitable. We're all trying to journey back to the source; the Creator. What matters is actions not wordings. Thats why I'm looking to the past to basically validate Ayman's article, because I still have doubts in me, I'm not at ease. I want to confirm for myself that Ramadan is 10 days, that its every year around the summer solstice, just like the Quran recommends validate facts for your own peace of mind.
Well, I have presented the evidence, there is no compulsion so I leave you to your studies in Peace. Let me know if you would like me to discuss this with you at a later time.
-
Peace Beatnik,
Read my post above, there are various different styles of 'celebration', all focused on the longest day of the year for some reason or other. If we found a historical example of muslims begining their fast on the summer solstice every year it would help Ayman's article and help us learn more. I'm not so much concerned with peoples appreciation for the effects of the sun on the planet and human beings, I'm more interested in Ramadan-specific traits such as fasting, feeding the poor, helping the needy, for a set amount of days (10 for example).
We are told that the only special thing about the scorching full-moon (shahr ramadan) is that the reading was descended in it. So obviously, before this reading was descended, this may not have been a special time for people to abstain in but they abstained at different times.
As for historical evidence from the period after the great reading, we know that the present so-called Islamic calendar seems to have been initiated sometimes around the middle of the 7th century AD. According to internal evidence from the great reading, we know that this calendar severely distorts the timing of the restricted full-moons and results in people violating the restrictions on hunting. This is why hardly anybody obeys the restrictions on hunting according to the so-called Islamic calendar. Hence, the corruption started quite soon after the revelation of the great reading. You can sense the corruption in the illogical stories that describe how Caliph Umar made the present so-called Islamic calendar.
The Quran is in Arabic. You would think that maybe at some point in Saudi history there would be some evidence of Ramadan being set during the summer solstice period? I'm not looking for guidance in that country, I'm looking for precedents and evidence.
Am I not stating myself properly or something? I dont see the problem in investigating history (before creation of other hadith) to look for examples of Ramadan starting June 21/22 every year. If there arent, we should discuss why. Lost records can be one reason, or maybe it never has been set during that date, if so why not? I'm not exactly an academic, but I would find that interesting, rather than just say "Ok, Ramadan is June 21/22 every year! End of story!" and just be done with it.
As I mentioned above, the proper timing for the fast was short lived. It could have only lasted from the time of the revelation of 2185 until perhaps the new calendar system was adopted. However, one can see that hunting restrictions (i.e. the restricted full-moons) have been observed between the summer solstice and the fall and continue to be observed worldwide today.
The scorching full-moon is the first full-moon after the summer solstice. Although this year it happens to occur only a few hours after the solstice, in most years this is not going to be the case and it will not fall on the summer solstice but days after it.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
-
Peace all.
I hope those of you who have accepted brother ayman's evaluation are enjoying/or have enjoyed their first day of fasting.
As I said earlier, the wisdom and logic made sense to me, especially after going back and reading through the articles and posts (including the wonderful exchange between ayman and marie).
Then, there was something else that hit me...something that I'd overlooked before. shock
Beatnik, if you look at the moon link in one of your earlier posts, you'll see the names of the various full moons at the top of the page. Look after "Harvest Moon" and you'll see "Hunter's Moon." That means that the next full moon is one that rises at a time when people are out hunting! Therefore, since the restricted months follow the month of Ramadan, it seems unlikely the Harvest Moon is the right moon to take as a sign that it is time to observe the fast.
-
peace be upon you sytalls,
Peace all.
I hope those of you who have accepted brother ayman's evaluation are enjoying/or have enjoyed their first day of fasting.
As I said earlier, the wisdom and logic made sense to me, especially after going back and reading through the articles and posts (including the wonderful exchange between ayman and marie).
Then, there was something else that hit me...something that I'd overlooked before. shock
Beatnik, if you look at the moon link in one of your earlier posts, you'll see the names of the various full moons at the top of the page. Look after "Harvest Moon" and you'll see "Hunter's Moon." That means that the next full moon is one that rises at a time when people are out hunting! Therefore, since the restricted months follow the month of Ramadan, it seems unlikely the Harvest Moon is the right moon to take as a sign that it is time to observe the fast.
I thought yesterday was the first day of abstinence? regardless I had forgotten anyways so I'm going to make it up, I forgot again today too and had taken drinks of water when I worked out and ate a banana but I'm going to abstain the rest of the day cause i remembered right after
-
Peace be to you Idris,
I was going by ayman's post
The burning full-moon ("shahr ramadan") will occur this year on the night of June 21-22 (1214AM EST on June 22). Thus, the abstinence will start on Wednesday June 22 and will last for a completed count of a few days ("ayam ma3doodat") as per 2185. The completion of a count is 10 as per 2196 and 7142.
There was one point, about mid-morning, where I reached for a Diet Coke without thinking. But I remembered just before I opened the bottle that I couldn't have it. Whew...it's easy to forget at the beginning, isn't it? I guess it's because we have so many automatic eating and drinking habits.
One thing I have noticed today...it's been over 20 years since I fasted during this time of year, and there are lots of hours to get through. But today is easier (so far) than even some of the short winter days. I feel "easier" inside about it somehow--like there's a certain rightness.
Except that banana you mentioned does sound sort of good about now.
-
Peace be upon you Sytalls,
I guess it's because we have so many automatic eating and drinking habits.
Yes, we have MANY automatic habits, even our EMOTIONS are really reactions. Whose to say we have to get angry because a certain thing happens or sad because a certain thing happens? What would happen to us if we DIDN't get angry or sad? Would we die?
There are parts of the book(universal law) that are clear, like not eating for a time wont kill you even though you crave it.
And there are parts of the book(universal law) that are similar, like if we do not give into the craving of Emotions, we will not die.
The ancients used the phrase "as above so below".
-
peace be upon you sytalls,
I think Ayman said to start abstinence today rather than yesterday is because the full moon occurs the night before and because the witnessing of the full moon is the sign that abstinence begins (2185) then we start it the next morning
here is my suggestion for a plan that we make you feel great while fasting/abstaining, do some work out (not too much so u absolutely need water to keep from being dehydrated), splash water on your lips or use chapstick if they get dry, take a shower, do some quiet meditation and this all combined with fasting/abstaining is an extremely relaxing experience
-
On the other hand you could just stuff yourself before sunrise. Maybe then you won't be hungry but you'l still feel the absence of the old eating habit, thats stil beneficial on its own isn't it. Perhaps thats why God didn't tell us not to more than usual beofre sunrise, so that even the weak ones like myself could do it.
-
Peace to you Idris,
I think Ayman said to start abstinence today rather than yesterday is because the full moon occurs the night before and because the witnessing of the full moon is the sign that abstinence begins (2185) then we start it the next morning.
Yes, I agree. That's what I understood...that we should start fasting on the 22nd, because the moon would be full the night before.
Around dawn, just after my morning contact-method time, I usually walk the dogs (which is a couple or three miles aroud the fields) or do some yard work. Then I run any errands and try to get phone calls taken care of up until early afternoon. After that, I like to have some time to reflect on spiritual issues while abstaining. Plus, my brain gets cloudier as the day progresses, making it harder to focus on much by the end of the day.
I very much liked what you said about our emotions and your quote from the ancients. There are indeed all sorts of indulgences that a period of abstinence seems to make us more aware of. There's a saying from the Bible I used to hear often...that we do not live by bread alone.
And Peace Natu,
D I think you are quite right...there are no obligations other than abstaining from the white thread of dawn until night.There was this N. African guy I knew some years ago, and he used to go out and play soccer during Ramadan, just to prove he was tough. I didn't see any nobility in deliberate dehydration! Plus, the weather where I live is not only hot, it's very humid. A person can get dehydrated just standing outside for more than a few minutes...much less playing some vigorous outdoor sport. And there I was, on my first fast (which was coincidentally also in June) and feeling like I was barely making it through the day.
After a few years of fasting, it got easier. One thing I now do, for the entire year, is follow a pattern of not eating for 24 hours (although I do drink zero cal liquids), followed by eating whatever I want for the next 24 hours. This seems to keep my metabolism running efficiently. I think it's also greatly helped with appetite control today...instead of thinking of the abstinence as 16+ hours of doing without food, I see it as 8 hours of extra chow time I don't usually have every day. lol
-
"A month beginning Autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide and clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Whoever from you is witness to that month, then let him fast in it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He Has guided you, that you may be thankful. " (2185)
Does this mean we were suppose to start our fasting Sept 22,2005 ?
-
Ok I read the article, it still seems I have missed Ramadan for this year.
Am I correct in that assumption?If yes, do i make the days up before the next Ramadan next June ?
Also if I read the article correctly, the fast is for 10 days only, is that correct ?
-
Ok I read the article, it still seems I have missed Ramadan for this year.
Am I correct in that assumption?Yes, you are correct. From what you are saying, it looks like you didn't witness the scorching full-moon ("shahr ramadan").
If yes, do i make the days up before the next Ramadan next June ?
According to 2185, fasting is for those who witnessed the scorching full-moon. You didn't witness it so you don't need to make up anything.
Also if I read the article correctly, the fast is for 10 days only, is that correct ?
Yes.
Peace,
Ayman