SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS...
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
I will do what you ask for, and likewise I ask in return that you post the ayat showing you are allowed to name people "kaffir".
I submit the first ayat as the definitive proof and other ayats for important behaviour patterns associated with this behaviour.
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
4911 O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or make fun of your names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.
496 O you who believe, if a wicked person brings any news to you, you shall first investigate, lest you commit injustice towards some people, out of ignorance, then become sorry and remorseful for what you have done.
This sounds good, but, if you are a Muslim...do you label yourself as such?
Strange logic...how is calling someone a muslim a ridicule, a mock or asserting ones own superiority over the other. A kaffir calling a muslim "oi muslim?!" how is that asserting kaffir superiority over the muslim? I don't know anyone who would not be offended by being called disbeliever, heathen etc...but the reverse would be really surprising, I mean someone taking offense to being called a believer.
A question for you finally Why did you say " if you are a Muslim..." I want to know exactly what made you say that? I am intrigued as to why one would speak in this manner...
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
I will do what you ask for, and likewise I ask in return that you post the ayat showing you are allowed to name people "kaffir". I submit the first ayat as the definitive proof and other ayats for important behaviour patterns associated with this behaviour.
Before I proceed, are Jerry Falwell and the current Pope, kaffirs? Yes or no?
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
The above ayat, from my understanding, forbids a believer from calling someone a rejector in order to rationalize attacking them and securing war spoils. The motive is wrong in the above ayat for accusing someone of being a rejector. I cannot at this time think of an ayat which says to label someone a rejector nor do I see one where Allah expressly forbids it either. However, your point has merit. I will give it more thought.
This sounds good, but, if you are a Muslim...do you label yourself as such?
Strange logic...how is calling someone a muslim a ridicule, a mock or asserting ones own superiority over the other. A kaffir calling a muslim "oi muslim?!" how is that asserting kaffir superiority over the muslim? I don't know anyone who would not be offended by being called disbeliever, heathen etc...but the reverse would be really surprising, I mean someone taking offense to being called a believer.
You lost me here; I'm not certain what you mean.
A question for you finally Why did you say " if you are a Muslim..." I want to know exactly what made you say that? I am intrigued as to why one would speak in this manner...
What manner is that?? I am simply curious if you are Muslim or not and do you mind that label.
Now, let me ask you a question
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
My opinion,
No.
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error.
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PEACE, ANDYA PRIMANDA,
THE QUESTION Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
My opinion,
No.
Is it your opinion or do you know for a certainty? Opinion, is not positive knowledge. Thank you for answering the question directly.
The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
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PEACE, ANDYA PRIMANDA,
Is it your opinion or do you know for a certainty? Opinion, is not positive knowledge. Thank you for answering the question directly.
I can't claim certainty but I put my wager on that being correct.
God knows, Wallahu alam.
Besides, looking for details (as we see with the traditionalists) end up making the right path too complicated and near-impossible to follow. Yet for some reason I have yet to understand, people crave these details. What do you think, PRIEST_BOKMEI? Why do people crave details and particularities?
I still remember conflicting teachings from Sunni imams. One taught that Islam is easy to follow. Another rolls out a whole set of rules and claimed that if I break even one of them my Islam isn't complete.
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Priest Bokmei,
You better watch it asking yes or no questions like that, you are not the law. It seems you've copied one of Dhulqarnains posts.
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PEACE, ANDYA PRIMANDA,
Besides, looking for details (as we see with the traditionalists) end up making the right path too complicated and near-impossible to follow. Yet for some reason I have yet to understand, people crave these details. What do you think, PRIEST_BOKMEI? Why do people crave details and particularities?
This is a great question, Andya. Why don't you start a thread on it. WHY DO PEOPLE CRAVE DETAILS...? Sounds like a good discussion to me. What do you think?
I still remember conflicting teachings from Sunni imams. One taught that Islam is easy to follow. Another rolls out a whole set of rules and claimed that if I break even one of them my Islam isn't complete.
Right on the money!...it's time to take back Allah's Deen.
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
You better watch it asking yes or no questions like that, you are not the law.
LOL! And if I don't watch it...what will happen to me? What does my asking the question I did, have to do with me being the law??
It seems you've copied one of Dhulqarnains posts.
Do you think Dhulqarnain minds that I copied something? Would you respect the question I asked you if Dhulqarnain, had asked it?
I'm still waithing for a yes or no answer form you, when will answer?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply
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salams all,
just an FYI (no offense to pb though i am sure he'll probably take offense), before you decide to go in circles answering his question.. the previous 2 threads on this topic might be of interest to you.
particularly the part where i answered the question multiple times, kept getting asked the same question, finally left and still was being asked the same question i answered in the beginning.
kinda frustrating. lots of similarity to apple pie's techniques - NOTE not a personal attack, see previous posts for detailed examples of how pb's technique is IDENTICAL to apple pie's
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salams all,
just an FYI (no offense to pb though i am sure he'll probably take offense), before you decide to go in circles answering his question.. the previous 2 threads on this topic might be of interest to you.
particularly the part where i answered the question multiple times, kept getting asked the same question, finally left and still was being asked the same question i answered in the beginning.
kinda frustrating. lots of similarity to apple pie's techniques.
I'm not offended at all. I just want to know when you will stop running, making excuses, going off on tangents, indulging in personal attacks , and simply answer the following with a yes or a no? At least four members here have answered no, so what is your excuse?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Hope you will stop talking about going circles and other non-essential notions, and provide us all with a direct answer.
Lookig forward to your...yes or no, reply.
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I just want to know when you will stop running, making excuses, going off on tangents, indulging in personal attacks
Peace all,
A lot of assumptions there, just because PB said it does not make it a FACT. The FACT is few or none accept his conclusions for sure.
This is not a discussion, it is not a court session, it is a stand off. He is stuck because he has no yes or no answer. Hence, he must in desperation try to get a response or proceed to slander.
The psychological pattern here is very interesting, PB is self appointing himself as the "authority" to demark muslim from non. And, by sitting in that authority position he is attempting to manipulate human psychology. I don't know whether this is by design or accident, but the rational response is not to give a yes or no answer and let him escalate his rhetoric and exposing himself in behaviour in answer to his own question what he is all about.
Who is muslim or not is the business of none but GOD, meanwhile anyone who is muslim is obligated to treat everyone regardless of way of life. Ones own beliefs is a matter between GOD and themselves and not for nosey do gooders.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance
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Peace be upon you all,
When a debate begins to get "stale", then those who follow the guidance should just step away. Our clear goal is PEACE, we must always remember that. Those who are following closely to the debates can see who is doing what.
I have had many debates with Brother PB which I had to step away from. Before I would just keep playing this game of going in circles, but I had to realize it was a test for my person.
We can only guide those who chose to be guided.
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
I just want to know when you will stop running, making excuses, going off on tangents, indulging in personal attacks
Peace all, A lot of assumptions there, just because PB said it does not make it a FACT. The FACT is few or none accept his conclusions for sure.
No assumptions at all. Five people thus far have accepted Allah's arguemen that, His Book of Guidance to all of mankind--Al-Quran, is fully detailed--relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE. The question puts right up front the choice you have to make...answer yes and be in shirk or answer no and in be in tauhid. Oh, btw, this isn't my argument, but Allah's Argument. I only posted His ayats. So, your beef isn't with me, but Allah. If I were...I would re-think my position and quickly ).
This is not a discussion, it is not a court session, it is a stand off. He is stuck because he has no yes or no answer. Hence, he must in desperation try to get a response or proceed to slander
.I'm not stuck at all...you and Idol...are stuck. Slander is not my game, it is yours and your very post proves it. Why are you devoting an entire post to ad hominem? No, Ashuura, it is you, who is desperate and indulging in slander.
The psychological pattern here is very interesting, PB is self appointing himself as the "authority" to demark muslim from non.
LOL! I'm doing no such thing. This is simply your imagination at work here.
And, by sitting in that authority position he is attempting to manipulate human psychology.
This is paranoia.
I don't know whether this is by design or accident, but the rational response is not to give a yes or no answer and let him escalate his rhetoric and exposing himself in behaviour in answer to his own question what he is all about.
On the contrary, it is absolutely rational to answer yes or no, because the answer determines if one will remain in shirk or submit to Allah only and alone. You are angry, as is Idol, because you find yourselves boxed in. Now, you are forced to confront your gods, mainly, your individual egos.
Who is muslim or not is the business of none but GOD, meanwhile anyone who is muslim is obligated to treat everyone regardless of way of life. Ones own beliefs is a matter between GOD and themselves and not for nosey do gooders.
Hmmm...fine speech.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance
And...what guidance might that be?
Allah, per ayat 2185, says that...His Quran is the guidance to mankind. Thus, the question remains
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Five people have found it quite easy to render a one word response...I'm certain you can do the same, yes? No more running, making excuses, going off on tangents, indulging in personal attacks, etc. Answer the question or...are you afraid to admit to something i.e. that you really don't believe Allah?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDOL,
Why is it that you post long and convoluted epistles, of biblical proportions, on just about anything, yet, you now find yourself totally incapable of answering a question with a simple yes or no response, what is that about? You wrote "Those who are following closely to the debates can see who is doing what". Yes, they can.
Listen, stop with the excuses and simply answer the following with a yes or a no.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looing forward to your reply.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
kinda frustrating. lots of similarity to apple pie's techniques - NOTE not a personal attack, see previous posts for detailed examples of how pb's technique is IDENTICAL to apple pie's
Anytime an individual departs from the issue and focus's on personal issues, that constitutes a personal attack. Focus on the topic/issue and answer the question presented to you.
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salam pb,
Anytime an individual departs from the issue and focus's on personal issues, that constitutes a personal attack.
actually, your tactics are totally relevant to the issue. I'm sorry if you're embarassed by the comparison to apple pie.. but it holds quite true... the previous posts are here on the thread permanently for all to see.
Your methods and tactics are entirely relevant, and hence not departing from the issue, hence not a personal attack.
Everyone on the forum has their own eyes to look back and see if I am running away or if I answered the question AD NAUSEUM. Let them decide themselves.
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Peace Priest_Bokmei,
After reading all your posts regarding your question and the replies of some people, I feel that some people are having a misunderstanding of terminology used in the question, thereby having difficulty replying to it "yes" or "no", and not because they disagree with the truth. Therefore I have a humble suggestion. After studying the meaning of "fasala" I suggest that you change the wording of your question to the following to avoid any misunderstanding of terminology
Is Al-Qur'aan not sufficient relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness, which could result in an individual going astray and ending up in Hell?
OR
Is Al-Qur'aan not fully explaining/clarifying relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness................
OR
Did Allah leave out any explanation/clarification from Al-Qur'aan...................
And before you start asking me this question, I would like to remind you that I have already replied to your question succintly in another thread )
I have one question for you though brother. After reading a lot of your posts including the Iblees and "jinn" threads, I have a feeling that you and "Dhul" are the same person with different nicknames. Is that true? "Yes" or "No". I would appreciate the truthful answer )
Regards,
Tanveer
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
actually, your tactics are totally relevant to the issue. I'm sorry if you're embarassed by the comparison to apple pie.. but it holds quite true... the previous posts are here on the thread permanently for all to see.
Don't get me wrong, I am not all embarassed by youR comparing me to Apple Pie. Apple Pie's debating skills are far more developed than your own. My protest is that you continue to respond with personal attacks and not what is requested of you. Your refusal to answer a direct Quranic question has exposed your feigned sincerity for Allah, His Deen and His Quran. No, Shuaib, it is I who, feel embarassed for you.
Everyone on the forum has their own eyes to look back and see if I am running away or if I answered the question AD NAUSEUM. Let them decide themselves.
Yes, you have been running and continue to do so. What are you so afraid of? Tell you what, if you are not afraid then answer the following question, as five other members have already, with a yes or a no. If you continue to evade doing this, well, you only further damage your credibility, show everyone that you are afraid to answer and...yes, continue to embarass yourself.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Oh, btw, please read and study my following reply to Tanveer, on fully detailed. Perhaps it will help clarify things for you.
Looking forward to either a yes or a no reply...not personal attacks or irrelevent embellishments, thanks.
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PEACE, TANVEER MD,
After reading all your posts regarding your question and the replies of some people, I feel that some people are having a misunderstanding of terminology used in the question, thereby having difficulty replying to it "yes" or "no", and not because they disagree with the truth. Therefore I have a humble suggestion. After studying the meaning of "fasala" I suggest that you change the wording of your question to the following to avoid any misunderstanding of terminology Is Al-Qur'aan not sufficient relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness, which could result in an individual going astray and ending up in Hell?
OR Is Al-Qur'aan not fully explaining/clarifying relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness................
OR Did Allah leave out any explanation/clarification from Al-Qur'aan...................
Let me ask you this , do you know of any explantion/clarification of whatever, that is not fully detailed? One cannot render a full explanation of anything, with out details, it is simply impossible. Thus, details, are the absolute foundation of any explanation, do you agree? Please look at the following definitions for minute, detail, and fasala
Main Entry MINUTE marked by close attention to details.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
"To report", is to--explain, agreed?
" Abundant thoroughness in treating small item or parts ", can only mean attention to details, agreed?
A clear explantion then, can only be that if it is fully detailed, that is, reported minutely and being thorough/attentative to small items and parts.
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry EXPATIATE to speak or write at length or in detail.
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together. Do you agree?
And before you start asking me this question, I would like to remind you that I have already replied to your question succintly in another thread
Yes, you did, and much appreciated . You, apparently, did not any trouble coming to a one word conclusion and answer to the question, so why do you think Shuaib and Idol, for examples, are having such difficulty? They are having difficulty, because they would prefer to mislead themselves and others on this issue, rather than, to agree with what I've argued here...no other explanation makes any sense. I have clearly, distinctly, minutely explained my position vis a vis GUIDANCE and fully detailed, hence, they cannot say..."man, what does he mean by that?"
Looking forward to your reply.