SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS...
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Bokmei,
Ashuura, has no point.
I am right, by your own admission. You are in such a muddle like a kitten with a ball of string, I will show it.
( Though I expect more and more irrational claptrap from you )
A munafiq, already knows he or she isn't sincere, thus, they can't be Muslim anyway.
Not necessarily, you think you are a muslim; But, you can still be a munafiq. If you knew the Qur'an you would know those who were unaware of their SHIRK in this life and they are SHOCKED to find out their transgressions in the next. Likewise one can be unaware they're MUNAFIQ.
Regardless, a munafiq, , can still bear witness to a truth. Now, whether or not they are sincere/accepting about that truth, well, that is another matter.
EXACTLY! Hence, you accept my POINT.
In other words, you are still none on the wiser who is munafiq and who is muslim. Your FIRST post and your DEMARCATION has FAILED. Q.E.D!
My position is this, if one denys that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE , then, one, naturally, will seek guidance from other sources, hence, that individual, is now in great shirk.
Your position here is not complete. You have pushed for public marcation of muslim or non. I have advocated this is a private affair, and it has NOTHING to do with you.
ALLAH determines who is MUNAFIQ who is MUSLIM in DEED and ACTION, if WORDS were WORTH anything, what an EASY thing to be MUSLIM.
Hence, your POSITION, APPROACH is FALSE.
Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question
.Tanweer speaks with truth here, instead of this pomposity, you should listen and take heed.
Peace to those who follow guidance
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
PRIEST If your answer is "no" to the following question, well, that sits well with me.
I answered your question as "NO"...
THE QUESTION Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
When you and the others answered "no" to my above question, and rightly so, you proved Allah's assertion that, His Quran is fully detailed for guidance. Now, for you or anyone else after this, to take any other body of work for guidance along with Allah's Book of Guidance--Al-Quran, would constitute shirk.
Not necessarily, you think you are a muslim; But, you can still be a munafiq. If you knew the Qur'an you would know those who were unaware of their SHIRK in this life and they are SHOCKED to find out their transgressions in the next. Likewise one can be unaware they're MUNAFIQ.
Interesting, please post the ayat where a munafiq is cast as being unaware that he/she is a hypocrite. It is my understanding that hypocrisy is denial of the truth. Denial is not ignorance of something, but the unacceptance of something. The hypocrite is unaccepting of the truth not ignorant of it. Now, I can see how many in the world to come, will be shocked to find that they were not Muslims at all, but polytheists. THE QUESTION, is an indicator of who is Muslim and who is not. Now, if a munafiq answers "no" to the question, well, he/she has borne witness to a truth, despite the fact that, he/she is unaccepting of that truth, hence, he/she is not a Muslim. That I don't know who is or who isn't a Muslim , has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, that is, the person knows if he/she is being sincere or not. THE QUESTION, will help people to be Muslims and not of the rejectors by keeping them focused on Al-Quran as the source of guidance.
Anyway, THE QUESTION, establishes Al-Quran as the sole "body of work", for the guidance of mankind, and that is what I set out to prove.
what does not sit well with me is YOUR behaviour.
What behavior might that be?
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PEACE, WAKAS,
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Wakas, you are the only hold out. Are you now ready to simply answer "no" to the above question? People look to you, and rightly so, for information. By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
As co-ordinator of PRL, who has gone through several hundred roots and their meanings and their occurrences, it is clear to me the form of the root matters.
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry EXPATIATE to speak or write at length or in detail.
Now, do you agree with my following statement
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together. Do you agree?
Looking forward to your reply.
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peace,
By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
If people look more suspiciously on what I say, people are more likely to verify what I say.
I dont mind that. Alternatively, please see my signature.
D
Wakas
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Salaam Bokmei,
Interesting, please post the ayat where a munafiq is cast as being unaware that he/she is a hypocrite.
29 In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.
Self deception without being aware
623 Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers."
Self deception in monotheism.
Q.E.D!
It is my understanding that hypocrisy is denial of the truth.
Your understanding is IRRELEVANT!
Your understanding based on the Qur'an is RELEVANT!
Your information is incomplete.
Denial is not ignorance of something,
Come on?!
but the unacceptance of something. The hypocrite is unaccepting of the truth not ignorant of it.
So, as long as you can be ignorant of the Qur'an, you are OK NOT follow its commandments?
FALSE!
Now, I can see how many in the world to come, will be shocked to find that they were not Muslims at all, but polytheists.
EXACTLY!
THE QUESTION, is an indicator of who is Muslim and who is not.
Who asks the question? Does GOD need to ask this question? Or is this a POINT of SELF EXAMINATION?
Now, if a munafiq answers "no" to the question, well, he/she has borne witness to a truth, despite the fact that, he/she is unaccepting of that truth, hence, he/she is not a Muslim.
You are none on the wiser, meanwhile GOD knew BEFORE you set your eyes on HIS BOOK.
The Qur'an uses methods of RATIONAL THOUGHT i.e. Questions in the WAY our MINDS WORK. For SELF EXAMINATION. Private between GOD and His servant.
7411 Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
That I don't know who is or who isn't a Muslim , has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, that is, the person knows if he/she is being sincere or not.
In 29, they were NOT AWARE of DECEIVING themselves, so HOW can these people be AWARE they are SINCERE or NOT??
THE QUESTION, will help people to be Muslims and not of the rejectors by keeping them focused on Al-Quran as the source of guidance.
You are nearly there but not quite there. Perhaps a few yards away, but I think you started to listen.
The question is there to PROD your conscience, you may WAKE up or continue DECEIVING yourself. Meanwhile, GOD sees in EVERY, DEED and ACTION and EVERY THOUGHT, who is MUSLIM who is NOT.
MARKING is NO ones business but GODs.
Humans who MARK are SEEKING the SPOILs of THIS WORLD.
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance!
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PEACE, WAKAS,
peace,
By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
If people look more suspiciously on what I say, people are more likely to verify what I say.
I dont mind that. Alternatively, please see my signature.
D
Wakas
O.k. I'll accept that, however, it is thin line you walk...credibility...is worth more than gold.
No, can you answer the following
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry EXPATIATE to speak or write at length or in detail.
Now, do you agree with my following statement
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together. Do you agree?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
PRIEST Interesting, please post the ayat where a munafiq is cast as being unaware that he/she is a hypocrite.
29 In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.
You don't understand the above ayat. It isn't saying that the deceivers are unaware that they are deceivers, rather, it is saying the deceivers aren't aware that they are only hurting themselves and not the believers.
623 Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers."
Self deception in monotheism.
Q.E.D!
Sorry, you missed again. I already stated in my last post that many will be shocked to find out that they are polytheists, so your comment here does not support your assertion that munafiqs will be shocked to find out that were, in fact, munafiqs. Please get your ideas organized.
It is my understanding that hypocrisy is denial of the truth.
Your understanding is IRRELEVANT!
Your understanding based on the Qur'an is RELEVANT!
Your information is incomplete.
I did not say it was my "opinion", I said, it is my "understanding".
Whenever I say my "understanding", it means...based on Al-Quran. Can you apprehend the difference between opinion and understanding?Denial is not ignorance of something, but the unacceptance of something. The hypocrite is unaccepting of the truth not ignorant of it.
Come on?! So, as long as you can be ignorant of the Qur'an, you are OK NOT follow its commandments?
FALSE!
Come on, what?
Main Entry DENIAL refusal to admit the truth or reality a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality.
Main Entry IGNORANCE destitute of knowledge or education lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified a lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing.
Are you satisfied now? Can you apprehend the difference between these two terms?
PRIEST Now, I can see how many in the world to come, will be shocked to find that they were not Muslims at all, but polytheists.
EXACTLY!
But the hypocrites, will not be shocked to find out that they are hypocrites.
THE QUESTION, is an indicator of who is Muslim and who is not.
Who asks the question? Does GOD need to ask this question? Or is this a POINT of SELF EXAMINATION?
Now, if a munafiq answers "no" to the question, well, he/she has borne witness to a truth, despite the fact that, he/she is unaccepting of that truth, hence, he/she is not a Muslim.
You are none on the wiser, meanwhile GOD knew BEFORE you set your eyes on HIS BOOK. The Qur'an uses methods of RATIONAL THOUGHT i.e. Questions in the WAY our MINDS WORK. For SELF EXAMINATION. Private between GOD and His servant.
7411 Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
Your response has nothing to do with what I asserted, please try again.
PRIEST That I don't know who is or who isn't a Muslim , has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, that is, the person knows if he/she is being sincere or not.
In 29, they were NOT AWARE of DECEIVING themselves, so HOW can these people be AWARE they are SINCERE or NOT??
They were/are, however, aware that they are deceiving others, and that is what a hypocrite is.
PRIEST THE QUESTION, will help people to be Muslims and not of the rejectors by keeping them focused on Al-Quran as the source of guidance.
You are nearly there but not quite there. Perhaps a few yards away, but I think you started to listen.
LOL! On the contrary, I arrived along time ago. It is you who, is struggling to catch up.
The question is there to PROD your conscience, you may WAKE up or continue DECEIVING yourself. Meanwhile, GOD sees in EVERY, DEED and ACTION and EVERY THOUGHT, who is MUSLIM who is NOT. MARKING is NO ones business but GODs. Humans who MARK are SEEKING the SPOILs of THIS WORLD.
I didn't mark anyone.
You need to calm down and collect yourself Ashuura, because you are making much sense right now.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Exactly right!, because that is all Allah said Al-Quran was revealed for...to a guide, that is, bottomline, to guide mankind away from Hell and towards Paradise. Listen, I'll be the first to say right here now that Al-Quran, does not give all the details on how to build a diesel locomotive engine. In this regard...it is not fully detailed, BUT, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE...it is fully guided.
Well, Idol...what took you so long?...beginning to take Allah and your credibility more seriously, eh? Good deal.
I have answered the same way I have asnwered form the beginning, somehow now you like my answer. My question is what is next? Where is all this "yes or no" heading? I am sure you were trying to prove some point, but I have yet to see what you were stating. My position stands regarding "kitaab" and "quraan", quran guides to al kitaab.
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Peace Bokmei,
Who asks the question? Does GOD need to ask this question? Or is this a POINT of SELF EXAMINATION?
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Answer the question. Did GOD authorise you to ask a question?
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You said your understanding=qur'an. Show us in the Qur'an where GOD asked you to ask such a question? Where?
You said
It is my understanding that, the questions I asked, will demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik /munafiq .
- I thought you believed guidance was from Qur'an Alone, so why did we need your question to find guidance?
You said
I didn't mark anyone.
I think you did, but let everyone come up to their own conclusion with the following
You said
Wakas, you are the only hold out. Are you now ready to simply answer "no" to the above question? People look to you, and rightly so, for information. By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
Consequence You advocate saying "no" implies reliability, and not answering unreliability.
Therefore, you gained/ tried to gain advantage over the word of Wakas. Hence, him you marked by suggestion.
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Can he be unreliable AND be a believer??
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Why did you say this to Wakas? What was your intention?
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How do you describe someone who does not answer your question?
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PEACE, IDOL,
I have answered the same way I have asnwered form the beginning, somehow now you like my answer.
No you didn't, but that is not relevent any longer. That you agreed that , relative to/specific to/pertinent to guidance , Al-Quran is fully detailed.
My question is what is next? Where is all this "yes or no" heading? I am sure you were trying to prove some point, but I have yet to see what you were stating.
My objective in this debate about guidance, was to establish without doubt that, nothing else, other than Al-Quran , is for the guidance of mankind. When newcomers and/or those who are not certain read this debate, they will have very clear evidence about that, all praises due to Allah.
My position stands regarding "kitaab" and "quraan", quran guides to al kitaab.
322 The revelation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, is from the Lord of the worlds.
Now, consider the next two ayats
482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
3928 (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may guard against Evil.
Both of the above ayats, clearly, define Al-Quran as being without flaw, hence, there is no doubt in it. Thus far, Al-Kitab in these ayats is Al-Quran.
Consider the following ayat which follows ayats
392 Surely We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, therefore serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience.
323 Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction.
Main Entry FORGE to make or imitate falsely especially with intent to defraud counterfeit.
619 Say What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say I do not bear witness. Say He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him
1015 And when Our clear Ayats are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
The above definition, and ayats 619 and 1015, once again, clearly establishes that Al-Kitab in these ayats is Al-Quran.
Consider the following ayats
3923 Allah has revealed the best hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.
413 A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know
4252 And thus did We reveal to you an inspired book by Our command. You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light, guiding thereby whom We please of Our servants; and most surely you show the way to the right path
The above ayats refer to the Book as being a hadith and a guide, what book can that be? Consider the following ayat
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a GUIDANCE to men and clear proofs of the GUIDANCE and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
Clearly, the Book, at least in the ayats presented...all are referring to Al-Quran.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
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Answer the question. Did GOD authorise you to ask a question?
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You said your understanding=qur'an. Show us in the Qur'an where GOD asked you to ask such a question? Where?
Don't ask silly questions, thanks.
I thought you believed guidance was from Qur'an Alone, so why did we need your question to find guidance?
To, hopefully, jar you out of denial.
I think you did, but let everyone come up to their own conclusion with the following
Good deal.
You said
Wakas, you are the only hold out. Are you now ready to simply answer "no" to the above question? People look to you, and rightly so, for information. By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
Consequence You advocate saying "no" implies reliability, and not answering unreliability. Therefore, you gained/ tried to gain advantage over the word of Wakas. Hence, him you marked by suggestion.
Supposition.
- Can he be unreliable AND be a believer??
Depends in what area.
- Why did you say this to Wakas? What was your intention?
I have great respect for Wakas, always have, however, when he refused to answer my question, which btw, is an obious no, both shocked and disappointed me. I expect better of him and, in my opinion, is a valuable resource and, as such, his response was incongruous and out of character and this bothered/s me.
- How do you describe someone who does not answer your question?
As being in denial of Hell.
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