Are the governments benevolent?
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best wishes!
Yep Democracy has it's fault. I prefer this than to Tyranny of a dictator.
if i am not mistaken Hitler an the nacis come to power through democracy...
That is the only example people always seems to throw against democracy. Natsy party may have democratic beginings but it became dictatorship by the time Hitler came to power. I think Pakistan had a democratic begining too but became dictatorship for most of its life as a country.
I can not be sure but all the blessings you attribute to democracy are imo rather of a corelative nature...they are correlated and not caused by it...and may not be peculiar solely to democracy
I don't understand you here? Democracy allows you to remove leaders from power via peaceful means. Can you do this to the Saudi Rulers for instance?
and your model european countries take GB for example have maybe gave you and their citizens some freedom but not so to the iraqies....on the other side there might be some muslim world dictator who do not allow freedom of speech but who doesnt kill people in thousands by military forces payed by democraticaly collected taxes from its free citizens....
The purpose of Democracy is to give the people who live by it their freedom. How can GB democracy give freedom to people who live under dictatorship? Would Saddam give into Iragis living under GB democracy? I think not!
What you asking in essence is World Democratic Government. Then all the people on Earth may have the freedom the people in GB enjoys. I envisage a world government but this may be in long time coming... -)
its sad that many people are killed by the money of the allegedly free citizens who are allowed fredom of speech. etc.
It is also sad that thousands, if not millions get killed under dictatorships because they oppose the dictator. Can you see this happening under Democracy in GB? I think not!
Do you know another good thing about Democracy?
If you don't like it then you are always free to emigrate to a country that lives under dictatorships -)Regards,
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Peace,
A system that would work is one where every minority has their say, everyone in a community plays a role in making laws and decisions about the way to run the country or city.
To me this idea sounds fair and I think I have heard someone talking about something like this on this forum. I think there is something about it in the reading.
Nural
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Peace zlatan im fine thank you )
I wonder is there any noble purpose that could justify taking something from someone by force or under physical threat?
No never ever. The end does not justify the means, and when you start to belive so, you need to reboot.
The quoted reasoning have reminded me of Frederic Bastiat, no so well known but nevertheless a brilliant economist and his briliant treatise "That which is seen and that which is not seen" (see bastiat.org)
Im going to give it a look, have heard of him, never actually read anything. so it might be worth a go. Thank you.
Apart from the immoral aspect of the goverment`s behaviour mentioned i believe there might be, behind the veil and after the fact, economic consequences that are detrimental to both, those from whome the money is taken and to whome the money is given...maybe ill comment on them later....however, i believe they are not hard for anyone to see only if he gives a more thought to it...
It has dire consequences. the one the money is being taken from is robbed. the one the money is given to is robbed of selfesteem. But there are so many facts to this that its hard to tell where to start.
Some call this grouping of elite. the illuminati. Illuminati havent exceisted since 1600something. But all kinds of secret brotherhoods of extremely rich facist men have their golden age. And if people are not concerned about this, and what the obvious outcome is (democracy not working ie) perhaps we deserve nothing better.
Actually make that...we do not derserve any better. because if we really wanted better, we would create it, rather than slave away on a 9-5 job for the next 40 years, for no reason at all, but to create more slavery worldwide. Help make the consumption explode wilder, and basically being part of the problem beliving that we are doing something wonderfull.
Im not against work, i love being physically active. But when you start to realise what you are a part of, nomatter how small (the small cogs are needed to run the engine too) a part you play, you just let it go. I will survive and if i dont. well too bad, i dont care. But im sure as hell not willing to participate under the given circumstances either. And belive it or not. thats the only thing that can turn all this evil around...
stop using money. stop making money, stop trading with money...its all fake money anyway. FIAT currency as controlled by private institutions that have the right to CREATE money out of nothing, what so ever.If you wanna work for worthless paper, thats fine. Come by my house and do some painting i have mountains of paper you can have. And i will even let you decide the pattern on it yourself, howabout that?
Peace
Noahp.s. see also the links i have gave at the Economics part of the Forum
best wishes, Zlatan
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Heloo there, best wishes
The purpose of Democracy is to give the people who live by it their freedom. How can GB democracy give freedom to people who live under dictatorship?
By not bombing them and attacking their coutry and killing their children sons and mothers?.. or by not helping others who to do the same?do i aks too much? let British people just leave others alone...
I wanst asking for World Democratic Government. God forbid!?.that would be a true dictatorship?!
You are trying strictly to separate/differentiate democracy from dictatrorship but the truth is that democrycy is a form of dictatiorship? and a very persuasive, cunning form, having so mighty propaganda that it deluded hundreds milons of people into believeing it a system close to perfect?when its actually a garbage?
And GB citizens enjoy less freedom than you percieve and people under so called dictatorships have some freedoms that GB citizens do not have...
Your personal liberties are injured in GB as well... they were probably injured in Pakistan also , but its only that you more prefer the way they are injured in GB?
Your alleged power to change your lider is only of a theoretical nature?(and it only gives an illusion that an individual can change something when in fact he cant or hardly can do it)and in theory you can even write letter to King fahd to give up of some of his power as well?
It is also sad that thousands, if not millions get killed under dictatorships because they oppose the dictator. Can you see this happening under Democracy in GB? I think not!
Yes but if i am not mistaken GB with its people`s money helped thousands of iraqies get killed ? and probably others in recent years i am not so well informed on happenings throughout the world but i think they were also present in Afganistan a few years ago??
Do GB ciziens have freedom to keep up their earned income for themselves( not to be taxed) and prevent it being used for bombing others accros the world and helping World terorist No 1 US?
I think not...best wishes, Zlatan
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Heloo there, best wishes
The purpose of Democracy is to give the people who live by it their freedom. How can GB democracy give freedom to people who live under dictatorship?
By not bombing them and attacking their coutry and killing their children sons and mothers?.. or by not helping others who to do the same?do i aks too much? let British people just leave others alone...
Well, Iraqis now killing innocent Iraqis in daily suicide bombings that is ok is it? Let Saddam gas the Kurds, yes? Let saddam destroy the marsh Arabs, yes? Let Saddam invade Iran and Kuwait and kill millions, yes? let saddam continue do these things, yes?
And no, killing your own people in suicide bombings is not the fault of the British People or anyone else's. You may disagree with the War, (and many British people disagree with the war) and that is fine. But British people are not telling Iraqis to kill other Iraqis in suicide bombings...
Why did the Saudi and Pakistani dictatorships fund the Taliban? so that they can oppress all the afganees? send the women doctors home, ban education of girls, ban music, ban television and introduce barbarous sharia law of chopping people hands off? I am sick and tired of people upholding brutal dictatorships around the world! When a Tyrant falls the shadow on the worlds lessens!
I wanst asking for World Democratic Government. God forbid!?.that would be a true dictatorship?!
No, Zlatan. I think you heart craves for dictatorship! You despise other peoples freedom and more so your own perhaps!
Just kidding -)You are trying strictly to separate/differentiate democracy from dictatrorship but the truth is that democrycy is a form of dictatiorship? and a very persuasive, cunning form, having so mighty propaganda that it deluded hundreds milons of people into believeing it a system close to perfect?when its actually a garbage?
Come Zlatan, give up this PRANOIA over democracy. Work to make democracy more effective rather than have such a pessimistic view on its application around the world.
And GB citizens enjoy less freedom than you percieve and people under so called dictatorships have some freedoms that GB citizens do not have...
Oh really like what?
Your personal liberties are injured in GB as well... they were probably injured in Pakistan also , but its only that you more prefer the way they are injured in GB?
Hey man I can publicly criticise my leaders without getting my head chopped off and I think that is very much preferable - don't you think?
Your alleged power to change your lider is only of a theoretical nature?(and it only gives an illusion that an individual can change something when in fact he cant or hardly can do it)and in theory you can even write letter to King fahd to give up of some of his power as well?
Who has ruled Saudi Arabia for all it's entire modern history?
House of Saud! Who ruled Britain in these periodsWinston Churchill to Tony Blair! We don't write letters Zlatan to our leaders begging them very kindly to give up their power! WE VOTE TO REMVOE THEM FROM POWER!It is also sad that thousands, if not millions get killed under dictatorships because they oppose the dictator. Can you see this happening under Democracy in GB? I think not!
Yes but if i am not mistaken GB with its people`s money helped thousands of iraqies get killed ? and probably others in recent years i am not so well informed on happenings throughout the world but i think they were also present in Afganistan a few years ago??
Who is killing Iraqis now in suicide bombings?
Do GB ciziens have freedom to keep up their earned income for themselves( not to be taxed) and prevent it being used for bombing others accros the world and helping World terorist No 1 US?
I think not...best wishes, Zlatan
What is wrong with Taxes? I think it is an excellent idea. Contributing part of your income for health, development and progress of the society that you live in is being a responsible individual. Is that not what Quran teaches? Create a equitable society? Taxes are one way of doing that.
Regards,
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Peace,
Zlatan, I agree on your point that some of our freedom here in the UK is taken away, but I think that less is taken than in other coutries and I appreciate that. But in this country we can strive for the good things and if more people agree with us then we can be successful where as in the eastern countries if people talk of anything revolutionary or positive for mankind there is more of a chance to get decapitated as Lotetree stated. Creativity would have a better chance of flourishing in Britain better than in Saudi Arabia at this moment in time.
I think the problem lies within the whole community and unless the people change and strive for good we will not get there.
Nural
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hello everybody , peace , salaam, best wishes
heres an insightful article from an insightful site and it has a lot to do with the topic..
http//www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski72.html
The Myth of Democratic Peace Why Democracy Cannot Deliver Peace in the 21st Century
by James Ostrowski
best wishes,
Zlatan
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Do GB ciziens have freedom to keep up their earned income for themselves( not to be taxed) and prevent it being used for bombing others accros the world and helping World terorist No 1 US?
I think not...What is wrong with Taxes? I think it is an excellent idea. Contributing part of your income for health, development and progress of the society that you live in is being a responsible individual. Is that not what Quran teaches? Create a equitable society? Taxes are one way of doing that.
Regards,
i will quote my answer from the fabulous article
http//www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski72.html(start of quote)
My suspicion is, even if the world pondered the question and was inexorably drawn to the common sense definition of peace proffered herein ? the absence of violence or the palpable threat of violence against persons and their property ? most people and most politicians and most intellectuals would recoil in horror at the prospect of such a world.It?s not that these people don?t like peace in general terms; it?s just that there are many things they value more highly. Many of these things can only be achieved by the use of democratic violence or the palpable threat of democratic violence against persons and their property. That is why we live in such a violent world. We are lying in the bed we have made. Most people don?t want peace, not really. If they did, it could be achieved without enormous difficulty since "There is no way to peace; peace is the way." end of quote
best wishes
Zlatan
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What is wrong with Taxes? I think it is an excellent idea. Contributing part of your income for health, development and progress of the society that you live in is being a responsible individual. Is that not what Quran teaches? Create a equitable society? Taxes are one way of doing that.
Regards,
Do you believe that ?Quran? is suggesting us to force the people to be good? That we should force them to do the charity, to speak nice words, to help the one`s neighbor and similar?
And that we should go around with the guns and force passerbys to help old people accros the street?
Besides , the claim that coercive taxation contribute to the health, developement and progress is imo outrageous and highly unproven?.
According to my investigation and pondering, all the progress and development is not due to the coercive taxation, but inspite of it!
And the capital in private hands, in the hands who have earned it and deserved it, and know how to make it, and how to make use of it, best serves to the developement and progress...and not in the hands of the bureaucrats...who are, in general, proven squanderers
Surely, coercive taxation, coercive social security etc might benefit some members of society at the expense of the others ?( and in some cases, it might be argued , even that benefit is only in the short run... the long run consequences could be devastating)...
in that respect even for a robbery can be claimed that it improves the health and the standard ?that of the robber?
For Naci?s doctors alleged experiments on live people could be also argued that they led to the progress of a science..... even for wars , no matter how unjust their cause was?
the end does not justify the mean?at least not always?
what progress in the world can be achieved through a coercion?
As said in the conclusion of the quoted article.
"There is no way to peace; peace is the way."
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Hello Zlatan,
You convinced me! I have been so blind!!!
Democracy BAD
Dictatorship GOOD.Can you please recommend a brutal Dictatorship. I want to emigrate there so that I can count myself very lucky to escape the Great Evils of Democracy! And when they break my bones with their sticks in my beloved Dictatorship Country, because I happen to say that the Dictator looked like a Goat, I will call each broken bone a blessings upon my body -)
Just kidding chap -)
We are quite happy in our democracy chap. We know it is not perfect but it serves us best. You are welcome to join us. But you are also free to setup your own Dictatorship. Then you would be known throughout the world as "Zlatan The Dictator" and what a honour it will be for you. You can then mould people to your image of perfections. You will then find that happiness that you have been looking for, the happiness that comes from the power to make people in your own image. It will be a paradise on earth for you. What achievement!!! Long live Great Leader Zlatan, peace be upon him -)
Just joking with you chap -)
All the best to you...
Regards,
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Peace...
I am sick and tired of people upholding brutal dictatorships around the world! When a Tyrant falls the shadow on the worlds lessens!
so whats you gonna do next, declare the war to the USA- e.i. the greatest of all the Tyrants?
We don't write letters Zlatan to our leaders begging them very kindly to give up their power! WE VOTE TO REMOVE THEM FROM POWER!
You mean, in the same way like the Jews and other German citizens who were ALLOWED to VOTE and to REMOVE Nacis? and Hitler ? when they came to power through legal democratic procedure?
We don't write letters Zlatan to our leaders begging them very kindly to give up their power!
Oh yes you DO! That?s exactly what you have been doing-many british antiwar people WERE BEGGING them, and yelling and screaming and protesting and YOU WERE WRITING THE LETTERS to the dictators?-not to go to the war with YOUR money and YOUR resources?.. to an obviously imperialistic and unjust war?!!!
But alas!?. nothing could have been done?.the criminal, bureaucratic and dictatorial mayority LEGALLY(through a democratic procedure!!!)robbed the minority and commited the aggression, murders and other atrocities helping The United States of The Great America to terrorize the world??with YOUR money and YOUR resources...
best wishes
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Peace...
I am sick and tired of people upholding brutal dictatorships around the world! When a Tyrant falls the shadow on the worlds lessens!
so whats you gonna do next, declare the war to the USA- e.i. the greatest of all the Tyrants?
I don't have to Zlatan because he will be out office in another 3 years whether he likes it or not. I bet you can't say this of a Dictator like Saddam can you?- even after he gased the Kurds, made war on Iran killing millions, destroyed the lives of millions marsh Arabs, and invaded Kuwait? you even can't protest against the dictator like Idi Amin? (he probably would eaten you for his lunch!!!, just kidding -))
We don't write letters Zlatan to our leaders begging them very kindly to give up their power! WE VOTE TO REMOVE THEM FROM POWER!
You mean, in the same way like the Jews and other German citizens who were ALLOWED to VOTE and to REMOVE Nacis? and Hitler ? when they came to power through legal democratic procedure?
Oh Zlatan, is Hitler the only excuse that you can bring up against Democracy? As I said before NATSY party had democractic origins but Hitler made it into a dictarship. But Hitler is the past, we are the present and our children will be the future. It will be worthwile for you to work towards ensuring that likes of Hitler, Saddam, Idi Amin, do not take power in this world!!!
We don't write letters Zlatan to our leaders begging them very kindly to give up their power!
Oh yes you DO! That?s exactly what you have been doing-many british antiwar people WERE BEGGING them, and yelling and screaming and protesting and YOU WERE WRITING THE LETTERS to the dictators?-not to go to the war with YOUR money and YOUR resources?.. to an obviously imperialistic and unjust war?!!!
Hey Zlatan, at least all the protestors were not sent to a Gulag did they or massacred as they were protesting in Tianenmen Square? They expressed their democractic right to protest and so they have and they were safe in doing so. Can you say that about dictarship? Will you be able to do this in fron of the "Great Leader" of North Korea?
But alas!?. nothing could have been done?.the criminal, bureaucratic and dictatorial mayority LEGALLY(through a democratic procedure!!!)robbed the minority and commited the aggression, murders and other atrocities helping The United States of The Great America to terrorize the world??with YOUR money and YOUR resources...
best wishesOh man you make my heart bleed -)
What about the millions who died in the Russian Gulags under Stalin?
And the millions died in Combodia under Poll Pot?
And the millions died in the Iran and Iraq war under saddam?
or the millions expelled by Idi Amin?
and the Holocaust under Hitler?go to the war with YOUR money and YOUR resources?..
And what do Saudi Rulers do with their peoples money and resources - the billions of petro-dollar revenues? - They build palaces for themselves and squandar this vast wealth on American made milliatary hardware!!! and of course funding the "Talibanic" regimes around the world.
Saddam squandered his people oil wealth on building Palaces for himself buying Military Hardware from the Russians and making war on Iran and Kuwait!!!!
No Zlatan. DICTATORSHIP is BAD man. Understand this. IT IS BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD....
Regards,
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I wrote
I wanst asking for World Democratic Government. God forbid!?.that would be a true dictatorship?!
Imagine a world government, democratically elected according to the principle of one-man-one-vote on a worldwide scale. What would the probable outcome of an election be? Most likely, we would get a Chinese-Indian coalition government. And what would this government most likely decide to do in order to satisfy its supporters and be reelected? The government would probably find that the so-called Western world had far too much wealth and the rest of the world, in particular China and India, had far too little, and hence, that a systematic wealth and income redistribution would be called for. Or imagine, for your own country, that the right to vote were expanded to seven-year-olds. While the government would not likely be made up of children, its policies would most definitely reflect the 'legitimate concerns' of children to have 'adequate' and 'equal' access to 'free' hamburgers, lemonade, and videos.
In light of these 'thought experiments', is there any doubt about the consequences which resulted from the process of democratization that began in Europe and the U.S. in the second half of the nineteenth century and has come to fruition since the end of World War I?
Read the rest of the Hans-Hermann Hoppe's article Down with Democracy here
http//www.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe12.html
best wishes, Zlatan
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Read the rest of the Hans-Hermann Hoppe's article Down with Democracy here
Go and read what I have written!
Regards,