The problem with Islam
-
LoteTreeThough we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards
Yes, very responsible. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be the first to agree with you if they weren't burnt to a crisp.
Ah yes the Tragedy of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But this is what you said
Yes, certainly evolved. We can now kill millions of people a minute instead of the inefficient hack and slash rate going on in 6th century Arabia.
and I said
But we ARE NOT KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now ARE WE!?
Are we killing MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now chap?
But we do have the POWER TO WIPE ALL LIFE ON EARTH! Therefore we have been indeed quite reponsible with this POWER -)
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can flyFor me the Quran is history ? No, it's MY story (21/10) not HIS story.
Your story? I see. That's why perhaps you can use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly and cows laying eggs yeah?
Just kiddin -)
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
Where are you getting your definitions from? Since when do 'fundamentalists' reject history? If you ask these 'muslim fundamentalists', to prove thier points, they will tell you things FROM HISTORY
Fundamentalist are "anti-historical" in the sense that they "accept" their own history and discards all. They are anti-historical in the sense that they believe that both Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad experienced God in the same way as we do now. But history tells us different. God of Abraham is indeed was different from the God of Moses, and God of Moses is different from the God of Muhammad in historical sense. But I guess that is a different debate -)
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
spiritual guide ? You mean like we do 'aum's on it and we can fly or something ? Have you actually read the Quran or do you enjoy speaking without any basis whatsoever?
Yes, chap, I have studied it for two years and even memorised six "sifaras" by heart! So you can say I have read it -)
and your next question to me would be have you understood it?
The answer is yes and this is my answer
Quran is A TRUTH not the whole Truth and surely not the ONLY TRUTH, it will guide you in the direction of God, but to find God you must go beyond it because Quran is not God -)And if you think Spiritual Guide means "aum" and flying then obviously you know nothing about spirituality of human beings. Homo-Sapiens are also Homo-spiritual... -)
I say read chap, read all that is available in a "spirit" of "openess" and not use Quran as a block in your mind -)
Regards,
-
Good posts LoteTree. Not to be a jerk or anything but can we try to stick with the main questions oops
Shall I let mquran's question go unanswered chap?
-)Regards,
-
LoteTreeBut we do have the POWER TO WIPE ALL LIFE ON EARTH! Therefore we have been indeed quite reponsible with this POWER
As I said, tell that to the chargrilled humans after the atomic bomb was dropped on them. They may not be so quick to agree with you.
To you, one life or even a million lives may be worthless, but not according to the Quran (5/32). I wonder who's uncivilised now?Your story? I see. That's why perhaps you can use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly and cows laying eggs yeah?
Just kiddin
Is your mental retardation a curable problem?
Fundamentalist are "anti-historical" in the sense that they "accept" their own history and discards all. They are anti-historical in the sense that they believe that both Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad experienced God in the same way as we do now. But history tells us different. God of Abraham is indeed was different from the God of Moses, and God of Moses is different from the God of Muhammad in historical sense. But I guess that is a different debate
Right, so you're making up your definitions as you go along. Good stuff
The answer is yes and this is my answer
Quran is A TRUTH not the whole Truth and surely not the ONLY TRUTH, it will guide you in the direction of God, but to find God you must go beyond it because Quran is not GodSo after 2 years of reading, memorisng and understanding, you came up with this?
41/53 al-quraan is AL-HAQQ
22/6 Allah is al-haqq
So both Allah and Al-Quraan is al-haqq, the ultimate truth. So im afraid your assertion is false. Al-Quraan is only 'a truth' to you because you'd love to cling to your modernist nonsense which is really a guise for first world oppression.
And if you think Spiritual Guide means "aum" and flying then obviously you know nothing about spirituality of human beings. Homo-Sapiens are also Homo-spiritual...
Ah good, please define for me 'spirit' and i'd like to see if al-quraan is a 'spiritual guide'
-
Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?Regards,
-
Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?You couldn't wipe the floor with a mop
i ask nothing but simple straightfoward questions and you simply ignore them. Wait till you meet people with REAL knowledge. THEY'LL wipe the floor with YOU.
-
Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?You couldn't wipe the floor with a mop )
You are right there chap! I will get my servant to do it for me!!!
-)[
i ask nothing but simple straightfoward questions and you simply ignore them. Wait till you meet people with REAL knowledge. THEY'LL wipe the floor with YOU.OOOO I am really really scared!!!
It's like being in the school playground!!!
As the kids will say, just wait till my big brother gets hold of you for using me to wipe the floor!!!But hey, I thought you WERE THE PERSON with REAL KNOWLEDGE, oh Sorry I forgot YOU DON'T TRUST YOUR REASON DO YOU?
Please RESPECT RIZ'S wishes and aswer HIS QUESTIONS ok?
If you want verbal jousting with me then lets open a thread, yeah?
-) -) chill chap tranceRegards,
-
wow
Don't worry Elke, mquran and I are old "friends" -)
He is just recovering from wounds from our last battle under a different thread... -)
As for wipping floor with him don't worry
I was joking!
I don't think I will be able to lift him because I am such weakling... -)Regards,
-
Peace Riz, all,
Try to address the following if possible
-Reconstruction of the kaba
-Bringing back the stone (assuming Muhammad would have detroyed/discarded it)
-Why did the Muslims become so divided and fight so bitterly when the Quran says that God was happy with them and that their hearts were united. I read an article denying that these civil wars happened, but these are recorded even by non-muslims.
-Traditional way of prayer. Main issues being 5 times a day and bowing to Kaba. Why would the unbelievers impose 2 extra prayers on themselves?
-Why was there such little resistance?
-Not even Muhammads own family remained to the Quran. Why/how what possible motive?
Looks like the post in which I tried to answer all this has been completely ignored. I will post the link to that post, so you can read it again
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=49406&highlight=#49406
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST, HOW WILL THAT AFFECT HOW YOU WILL BE JUDGED ON THE LAST DAY ?. Who cares what the past people, including Muhammad's family did, and how and why they did it. All that you need is in Al-Qur'aan, and all the historical and personal examples needed for our guidance are in it.
It looks like brother Zenje's posts are indeed going unread.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
-
Hey guys.
Tanveermd your earlier posts did not go unnoticed or unread and the same with zenje. Its not like I haven't ever seen those verses, but they don't address the issue.
You ask why it matters what happened in the past, so let me explain my view. What Muhammad and his followers did was and still is very important to know and understand. If Muhammad considered the Shrine in Mecca to have some significance, then there is no reason we should not do the same. You can't simply discard history just because it is hard to understand or doesn't fit with you interpretation of the Quran. Muhammad was an excellent example whom we should try to follow as the Quran itself states. To me the question of the Sunna has never been if we should follow it, rather how do we know what tradition tells is us true? If one is to discard all rituals and practices in Islam not directly found in the Quran, then there is much to explain regarding the events after Muhammads death. Some of which I posed above. If Muhammad did infact perform some sort of Pilgrimage, then why should we pretend it never happened and walk away blindly? Does the Quran not ask us to perform the pilgrimage to the ancient shrine? It doesn't say Abrahams shrine, it is simply the ancient shrine. God has made this shrine a shrine for the people it says. Whether or not it was once a pagan shrine doesn't matter, it has been made a shrine for the people and rededicated to God. Looking at it like that it is certainly possible that we are to perform a pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad, his closest disciples, and his family are all recorded to have done so. If anyone is to simply disregard all of these accounts simplly because his/her interpretation doesn't fit with such events, then the person has to explain where/how/when these practices came in. You can't simply point to verses in the Quran that say rely on the Quran alone because relying on the Quran alone I can also see there being a pilgrimage to Mecca.
The point of this all is to practice Islam like or similar to the way Muhammad practiced it, because as the Quran says, he was an excellent example. You might say that he practiced it just like the Quran says, but the Quran is so vague in many areas and therefore Muhammad himself obviously had his own interpretation which God never objected to. If this included a pilgrimage, then there is no reason no to perform a pilgrimage. Now people here claim that all of this pilgrimage stuff was invented after Muhammads death. This would not be hard to believe if the accusations weren't against Muhammad closest disciples and family. At this point these accusations need some serious explanations. Did Israel betray Moses? Did Judas betray Jesus? Yea, sure, but there Prophets still had very close disciples and certain family members who never betrayed them. Muhammad is no exception. To say that Muhammads daughters, wives, best friends all betrayed him is quite a big accusation and without any clear evidence backing it, why should anyone believe these accusations? Once again, the Quran is not clear evidence against the pilgrimage. Sure certain foriegn and pagan practices might have been added to it, but to say the pilgrimage to Mecca was invented by Muhammads closest believers who stuck by him through good and bad, fought many battles by his side, never betrayed him, and whose hearts were unified as the Quran states, you have some serious explaining to do.
-
Dear Riz,
You are right, what Muhammad and his followers did and said is very important to us. However, where does it say that Muhammad was ever in Mecca? And what he did there?
If you look closer at the basis for your perception, you will see that most of this is from the Hadith-collections, or history-books based on tell-tales.Concerning shrines, do you remember the story about Moses and his people building a physical shrine because they did not have any tangible symbol to pray to?
Why do you think God says that suddenly, now it is OK to have a physical shrine to pray in front of?
Has God changed His mind? ?I do not see pilgrimage as a bad thing, but all for the right reason. To go somewhere in order to perform rituals in front of a shrine, well, could there be a better reason to assemble then to copy the straying people of Moses?
Best regds
Ali Omar
-
Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are going to throw out such claims then you better have some evidence backing it up. A lack of evidence is not evidence either. Where does it say Muhammad was in Mecca? Besides the Muslim tradition and history, it fits with the Quran. The Quraysh, the shrine, the pilgrims, and probably other elements which I am missing. Quraysh were in Mecca and no one will deny this, Arab pilgrims used to go to the Kaba for ages and this is accounted for by non arab sources predating Islam such as Ptolemy. Besides, Islam spread outwards from Mecca and no where else. Also if you are to believe Muhammad was foretold in previous scriptures, then you must accept he was in Mecca because these prophecies not only describe Muhammad in Arabia, but mention Mecca. It can be found in Hindu prophecies, Biblical prophecies, and others. Here is one such example http//www.mostmerciful.com/twin-events.htm
So if you want to disregard muslims historians, non muslim historians, other scriptures, thats fine but present some evidence or explanation. The Quran is not a history book, it is a confirmation of the old books, a news of the coming judgment, and a guide. It assumes the audience knows what it refers to an many instances. Why would God say, 'and Muhammad was in Mecca'? Once again, just because the Quran doesn't say Muhammad was in Mecca doesn't mean he wasn't there. It proves nothing and it is highly illogical to throw out so much based on the absense of the Mecca in the Quran.
-
Salaamun alaikum,
Riz So if you want to disregard muslims historians, non muslim historians, other scriptures, thats fine but present some evidence or explanation. The Quran is not a history book, it is a confirmation of the old books, a news of the coming judgment, and a guide. It assumes the audience knows what it refers to an many instances. Why would God say, 'and Muhammad was in Mecca'? Once again, just because the Quran doesn't say Muhammad was in Mecca doesn't mean he wasn't there. It proves nothing and it is highly illogical to throw out so much based on the absense of the Mecca in the Quran.
Where Muhammad was doesn't matter. What matters is where WE are. Al-Quraan is all-consuming prophecy of HUMANITY. Our lives, our being and our existence. Look at your own life and look at the book. Does your life concord with that is right according to the book? You're not going to be asked about where Muhammad was, don't worry.
-
You mean to tell me, if he was in Jerusalem, he would have inclined to the kuffar (17/73-75) ? Would he have retreated in Badr ? Or perhaps been harsh to the companions ?
Would anything in the Quran change if Muhammad was somewhere other than Mecca, Riz ?
If so, what?
-
Dear Riz,
Correct me if I?m wrong, but as far as I am aware, there is only one single place in the whole of Qur?an where ?Quraish? is mentioned, in 106.1.
What sources can we find telling more about these people? They must be very important as much of the history depends on their existence in a certain place at a certain time, although the Qur?an doesn?t seem to put much emphasis on it.
Not even the important place, Mecca itself, is mentioned, so again, where does it all come from?Prophesies are all fine and dandy, problem is, there are so many of them that searching long and hard enough, there is no problem finding prophesies to fit almost any situation. It only takes slight adjustments here and there.
Maybe you get the notion that I am a skeptic?
Not thereby saying there is no truth in any prophesies, mind you, but I believe a little skepticism may be good.It is correct as you say, the Qur?an is not a history book, and it confirms what came earlier. I.e. the Qur?an can not confirm what is not in it.
It does mention Moses, and it does mention that the people he was leading went astray and built a shrine to pray towards. And this was not good.
Was the form of the shrine wrong and therefore it is OK to pray to a shrine formed differently? A different form and/or a different place makes it into something else than an idol?Best regds
Ali Omar
-
Ok lets just for some reason pretend that Jerusalem wasn't under Byzantine control during Muhammads life but rather under the control of some pagans who had enough authority to chase out this man and his followers.
Muhammad flees from Jerusalem after being persecuted. According to the 'fake' history, Muhammad was persecuated by idol worshippers in his hometown. Not Christians, not Jews, but those who worship idols. Not just any idolators, but Arab idolators namely the Quraysh. Were their Arab idolators in Jerusalem at this point? Were the Quraysh ever in Jerusalem? Why did they alone harass Muhammad at this point and not the Christians or Jews who later were a problem in Yathrib? What about the shrine? It wasn't the temple mount because that was not there at this point, it was destroyed by the Romans. So where is this "constructed Shrine", the Shrine whose Lord the Quraysh were to serve? (524, 1063)
Did Muhammad not take back his original city from the idolaters? Or will you deny this also simply because it is not mentioned in the Quran? If you want to write your own history, thats fine, but assuming he did take back the city, the city could not have been Jerusalem. Jerusalem was captured after Muhammads death.
Ok so lets just assume that Muhammad was infact born and lived in Jerusalem. Besides the fact that at this point he would not have been an unlettered Prophet anymore, his native langauge would have been Aramaic . So the Quran would have been revealed in Aramaic. Is this Quran in Aramaic? Is there a single verse that is not in Arabic? His original location was clearly in Arabia and therefore the Quran came down in Arabic.
-
Salam everybody,
I think the Quraish who we are told in Qur'an belonged to Petra or Madain Saleh or one of those important centres of the Caravan Route. Actually, Mecca was not one of them. Taif was, but less important. It must be one of the north.
Because Riz, the Bible says that the new prophet would come from the tribes of Kedar, and these tribes settled on what we call now Jordan. Anybody knows something about Qurayza??? Have they anything to do with Quraish?
Anyway, we dont have much info from Saudi Arabia because of obvious reasons (they have so much to hide) and we know just from written words (that they wrote) that Kaaba was a temple dedicated to Allat, al Uzza and Manat. What happens if it's not like that? Petra and MAdain Saleh are clearly signs that they hosted shrines to these goddesses but I beliebe the Kaaba in Mecca is an hindu temple and Shiva the main god. God and not goddesses...
I don't have any doubt about Muhammad having migrated to Medina but I still doubt that he iniciated all the conquests of Arabia. A prophet is not a conqueror. He was not a king neither as Daud and Sulaiman were.
Anyway, we could spend all life discussing this. If it was important, Allah would have tell us. Probably we'll now what is wrong in the Sunni way but it will be difficult to know the truth about the beginning of Islam.
Peace,
nur
