The Heavenly Feud Account
-
Peace all.
I'm sure some of you have read Khalifa's ideas about the Heavenly Feud. It goes into a lot of detail and explains our purpose here on Earth, among other things.
Although he did use Qur'anic verses for justification, a lot of details were clearly not based entirely on the Qur'an.
As such, I'd like to discuss the account to see what parts of it make sense Qur'anically, what parts cannot be right, what parts must be right, etc. Just a basic analysis of the article. I do think it is an interesting account and I think the issue does deserve further study.
Here's the article I'm talking about http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/introduction.html
And please, let's not let this devolve into a thread about Khalifa himself, Submitters, Code 19, etc. We are merely discussing an article about the Qur'an and its merits, or lack thereof.
Peace all.
Note The end of the article does talk about Code 19. For the purposes of this thread, please only discuss the Heavenly Feud account in the article and ignore the other stuff.
-
Let me try to get the discussion rolling. Some subtopics within the account
- The article claims 3869 is a reference to the Heavenly Feud.
Khalifa translated the verse as "I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society.
Shakir translated the verse as I had no knowledge of the exalted chiefs when they contended
Freeminds translated the verse as "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarrelled."
And other translations mostly speak about high chiefs or past leaders.
Is there any support for Khalifa's translation? It is interesting to note that directly after 3869, the sura gives the familiar account of the creation of Adam and the angels prostration before him. This seems relevant to the translation of 3869.
- The article claims that 230, where God says He will place a trustee/representative on Earth, refers to Satan. Most translators, I believe, think it refers to Adam. Is there reason to believe one over the other?
The article goes on to claim This is precisely what God decided to do in response to Satan's claim that he could be a god; God appointed him a temporary god on the tiny speck Earth (230, 3660). As for those who agreed with Satan, they were given a chance to kill their egos and submit to God's absolute authority. While the vast majority of the guilty creatures took advantage of this opportunity, a miniscule minority consisting of about 150 billion creatures failed to take advantage of this offer (3372).
3372 does mention humanity deciding to accept a trust/covenant. Does that verse fit with the article's description?
-
The article uses 2218 to show that those many souls that initially questioned God's power in the Heavenly Feud but who later repented became the animals, the mountains, the trees, etc. Most interpretations of the verse seem to think of this verse as showing that animals simply follow God-made laws of nature, and in this way submit to God. Is there any evidence for tying 2218 to the alleged Heavenly Feud?
-
The article claims 5023 and 5027 refer to a jinn companion that is assigned to each of us at birth. Most translators interpret the "companion" to be an angel who records our deeds. Evidence for one interpretation over the other?
-
The article claims that the jinn are descendants of Satan and, hence, whisper Satan's point of view to us. They have free will like humans but, continues the article, jinns sided more with Satan's point of view in the Heavenly Feud while humans, who even though they doubted God, sided with God's point of view more. The article uses 1850 to show that Satan was a jinn and that he has "offspring." 727 does refer to devils, plural (shayateen) who are the allies of the disbelievers. Are these shayateen the "offspring" of the jinn known as Satan? Also, see 4336.
Peace.
-
Peace,
My reading of the Scripture supports the view that we 'humanity' as well as the 'jinn' have been placed on this planet as a last chance to redeem ourselves from previous sin/actions. I believe the story of Adam and his mate is a description of how we ended up here (i.e. each person who eats from the forbidden tree is born on this lowly planet with no memory of the events that led him/her here).
Having said all that, I am strongly against the story related by RK in-which Satan challenges God's dominoin and is given planet earth to prove his point! This story has its background in the fabricated Christian teachings and is not supported by the Scripture (be He glorified that any of his creation would challange His glory and power).
-
Peace,
Heaven wasn't a place out there somewhere, heaven refers to the higher thinking early mankind(adam=sanskrite for mankind) had, and lost when they listened to their ego's(satan(hebrew)&iblis(greek)=rebel). Heaven refers to the higher thinking, and by thus the adam story is a metaphore. The idea of a heaven before the earth, comes from the Greeks, and is ignorant mythology with no theological bases in the Quran. It is sad people don't see this and investigate their pre-programmed view on heaven and hell. People already have a filled-in view of heaven and hell, so they can't see how heaven and hell are used in the Quran. Rashad was a good man, but he was still sunni, even though he refuted the hadith, they still formed his visions on how heaven and hell are, he even believed God will come on Judgement day, while God is everywhere, and is already here. But he already made good ideas, and saw it was meant metaphoricaly in the Quran. So even though a couple of years ago i found his theories interresting, they are based on mythology, and go against the Quran.
Heaven(Djenna=the garden we can't see=symbolic for understanding Reality and attain bliss because of it) is the higher thinking that we can attain in this life and will continue in the next life, and will produce things that God compares with rivers of milk and honey. Hell(Gehenna) is the destruction of truth and logic, and is a barriere(Jahim) that will block understanding the truth and progress. So the heavenly feud, most likely refer to when the first societies argued with each other, and society broke because of it, and lost their development, as God also says there were powerfull nations in the past. Angels don't appear in the Quran, as malika refer to 'the ones in control', which mostly refer to powers in nature, angels are Egyptian mythological creatures and have no basis in the Quran. So this concept of angels or humans arguing in the mythological Greek heaven is unfounded and is not to be found in the Quran. Also the Quran refer to heaven and hell in this life as much as the next, although people are blinded by the already programmed concept that it is only in the next life.
-
Those who believe and obey God,
-
For them is good news in the life of the world and in the life to come. There is no changing the words of God. That will be the great triumph.
-
For what you possess will pass, but what is with God will abide. We shall certainly award those who persevere a recompense in keeping with their deeds.
-
We shall invest whosoever works for good, whether man or woman, with a pleasant life, and reward them in accordance with the best of what they have done.
As Rashad already pointed out it already starts here.
-
We are your friends in this life and in the Hereafter where you will get whatever your hearts desire, and have whatsoever you ask for,
-
As a gift from the forgiving, ever-merciful (God)." Whose word is better than his who calls to God and does the right, and says "I am of the obedient?"
-
So when we heard the guidance we believed in it; and he who believes in his Lord will neither fear loss nor force.
-
Some of us have come to submission, and some of us are iniquitous.'" Those who have submitted have taken the right course;
-
But those who are iniquitous will be fuel for Hell.
As you can see, accepting reality and the truth, is rewarded with heavenly thinking, and those that deny are immediate stuck in hell, that burns away logic and understanding. -
(Say) "If they keep to the right path We shall give them water in abundance to drink
-
In order to try them through it. But whoever turns away from the remembrance of his Lord, will be given increasing torment by Him."
Because you deny the truth, you will torment yourself in this life and the next.
-
Why, they who have earned the wages of sin and are enclosed in error, are people of Hell, where they will abide for ever.
-
But those who believe and do good deeds are people of Paradise, and shall live there forever.
Attaining heaven already happens for a part by accepting the truth, and living by it. -
Do you think you will find your way to Paradise even though you have not known what the others before you have gone through? They had suffered affliction and loss, and were shaken and tossed about so that even the Apostle had to cry out with his followers "When will the help of God arrive?" Remember, the help of God is ever at hand.
It is difficult to attain the higher view of accepting the truth.
- And hasten for the pardon of your Lord, and for Paradise extending over the heavens and the earth, laid out for those who take heed for themselves and fear God.
Paradise is as well on earth...........
572..........." Whosoever associates a compeer with God, will have Paradise denied to him by God, and his abode shall be Hell; and the sinners will have none to help them.
Paradise is denied when you deny the truth, and by thus refers that accepting the truth is connected with Paradise, and denying it will result into hell, burning away logic, and will only create barrieres of illusions(Jahim).
-
Those in Hell will call to the inmates of Paradise "Pour a little water over us, or give us a little of what God has given you." They will answer "God has verily forbidden these to those who denied the truth.
-
And (many a one) there is among them who says "Allow me (to stay back at home), and put me not on trial." Surely they have put themselves on trial already, and Hell will enclose the unbelievers from all sides.
Hell already encloses you when you deny the truth, this doesn't only include Quran, but the whole reality of this creation itself. If maintaned till death, this hell will continue when they are created again, and they will be trapped again behind their barriere(Jahim).
- For those who obey their Lord is excellence. For those who fail to obey, the reckoning will be hard, even if they possess and give as ransom all that there is on the earth, and as much more; and Hell will be their abode How wretched is its wide expanse! Can a man who knows what has been revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, and one who cannot see, be the same? They alone take warning who are wise,
As you can see by this verse, denying the truth is followed immediately with hell, burning away their understanding. As the word hell and the word truth are always connected together in the Quran.
104
4. By no means. He will be thrown into Hutama.
5. How will you comprehend what Hutama is?
6. It is the fire kindled by God
7. Which penetrates the hearts
8. (And) vaults them over
9. In extending columns.Let's now read the verse again
- I had no knowledge of the higher Assembly when they discussed it among themselves.
3869 Say! ?I had no knowledge of the top leaders of the past, and of their disputations. - ?I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarrelled.
3869 (There) was not from knowledge to me with the group/assembly/nobles, the highest/mightiest when they dispute/controvert/argue.
3869 Say, 'It is a grand story, and yet ye turn from it!' I had no knowledge of the exalted chiefs when they contended.
3869"No knowledge have I of the Chiefs on high, when they discuss (matters) among themselves.
3869I had no knowledge of the Highest Chiefs when they disputed;
3889 I had no knowledge of the exalted chiefs when they contended
This can say about many things, humans in power, or humans of the higher thinking, but clear that it is in the past, and that they argued. But indeed, it is intruiging to start a new investigation. As i don't agree with rashad's interpretation.
Ahmed Ali
"Hell, The word Jahannam is of hebraic origin, consisting of Ji, valley, and Hannam, and meant the Valley of Hannam, south of Jerusalem, where in ancient times human sacrifices were made to Moluk, the deity of the Ammuniyin, and burnt, thus signifying the altar of humanity's sacrifice. in the Quran, heaven and hell are not eternal kingdoms as in the Bible, but contingent to and coterminous with the heavens and earth, as is evident from verses 106 to 108 of surah 11
And those who are doomed, will be in Hell For them will be sighing and sobbing,
Where they will dwell so long as heaven and earth endure, unless your Lord will otherwise. Verily your Lord does as He wills.
Those who are blessed will be in Paradise, where they will dwell so long as heaven and earth survive, unless your Lord wills otherwise This will be a gift uninterrupted.Paradise is a state of bliss, enjoyably worldy, so is Hell described as "the fire kindled by God which penetrates the hearts. it vaults them over in extending columns," in 1046-9. It is, thus, a sacred archetypal symbol, carrying both a moral and psycho-social meaning within its tautology and eschatological ultimacy. So is Yaum-al-Hasr, the day of Resurrection, the completion and consummation of life on earth. in the metonomy of the Quran resurrection signifies the rising of the dead so that each feel in person the effects of his good and evil deeds done on earth."
Peace
-
-
Salaam arnoldyasin
That's all very well said and done but what about the poor miserable lives that the children live and start off with in Africa? Accepting the truth and living by it will bring them heaven whatever that maybe in the next life forever but it's certainly not in my eyes heaven in this world for them. You just have to see the video clips and photos of these kids to understand.
In my opinion I don't agree that heaven exists in this world as well unless I come across a verse that supports this view.
PEACE
-
Peace,
Yes, i understand, and i had the same dillema too. But you have to understand that it is the higher thinking that will cause people to as much as they can to bring 'heaven' to everybody. You say you want a verse that tell you directly that heaven can be attained here on earth, then first you have to understand that heaven is not a physical place, but a state of mind, that will be continued in the next life. So if you take of your glasses of 'heaven is only in the next life', then you will see that the Quran says as much about Djenna in this life as in the next. Most people in the western world are trapped in their illusion, their hell, that they don't really care about the starving people in this world. Their Jahim=barriere stops them from really caring and helping. You have to understand is that you can be in the most miserable place, and still be in the heaven of your mind, even though there is so much misery in this world, i feel the bliss of accepting the truth and reality. That is heaven, accepting the truth and knowing what to do with reality. Most people in this world are stuck in their own made hell of illusions, that will stop them from growing their selfs(nafs). Most western people know there are people starving every day on the other side of the earth, but still they keep their money for themselves, still don't help the people over there, because their Jahim=barriere in thinking causes them not to make the right decisions. Imagine if people would save money for a while and then go to Africa themselves to help people over there, not just some little groups, imagine that every person on earth would feel this responsibility, then the problem would be solved. A lot of problems would be solved if it was handled like this, but people are stuck in their illusion they live now, the illusion of the importants of work, of going on holiday and so on. They know they're wrong, so this knowing they're wrong will stop them from growing, and by thus creating hell for others. If people would understand reality and the truth, that they're created, that this life is real, because most people live in doubt whole their lives, then they would understand that just taking action is possible for them, most people live in the illusion that they can't help those people, they say that to themselves.
If nobody had listened to Hitler or other leaders because they would understand reality, then there wouldn't be wars. Because then we wouldn't create hells that are results of our inner hells, that fool themselves we have to listen to leaders, that it is a 'duty' to fight. Imagine if all the people would have stopped listening to Stalin, and would have looked at him, that they aren't scared anymore of him, when people realise that we give power to such people, that we can brake the cycle, then there would be more peace. It is because we don't act to serve real freedom, to give heaven to everybody, that will stop us also from attaining the higher level, because we know it is the truth.
Then we arrive again on the starving people, on the people who are innocent victims of war or terror. Why are they the causulties of other peoples hells, of other peoples illusions? For a part they themselves are also stuck in their personal illusion, what keeps them from making the right decisions and actions. Don't jump yet, let me finish. If you understand reality, how it is structered and how its laws are and so on, it is like you trying to eat soup with a fork, because you don't understand the reality of the soup, how it is structered, then your stuck behind a barriere of growth and taking the right actions that will cause to give the right fruits in life. Most people on earth live like this, stuck in their man-made traditions and understandings of this world, these are all illusions, and they know deep inside that is true, but still they keep feeding their hell. So they are victims of the western people's hells, that don't give them the help the western world can really offer. And they are victims of their own made hells, their own made illusions. Put these together and we see the results on tv everyday. Everybody is eating life with a fork instead of a spoon, and will never grasp the real possibilities in this life and the next. How you believe this life to be, will cause you to act and behave in a certain way in this life, so if you believe in illusions, your actions will also be like illusions, because you will never understand the laws of cause and action God created, so people surrender themselves mostly to somebody else's illusion and let them be ruled by them(the people in politics, husband, village traditions, religion traditions and so on). God says in the Quran, that if people haven't reached the message, so they can brake away from their illusions, then they're not responsible, and will attain the higher thinking in the next life, that will take away all the grief they had in this life. But this shows that people how do have the revelation can reach a partial heaven, we can in this life reach a higher thinking that will move on to the next life. And this higher thinking will give results of bliss, because the truth is just pure bliss to me. It is sad still that kids are the victims of other people's illusions, but this will be forgotten in the next creation.
But to attain this understanding, you have to be in an enviroment that allows that. So on earth we can only walk a little part of the stairs to the higher thinking. Only in the next life we can freely walk the stairs up. But you have to understand that it is our actions that will create a heaven and hell, not because God creates a mythological place where people burn or drink from rivers of milk. It is our behaviour in the next world that will make it a heaven for everybody. So this also applies to this life as well. So this life is not a test, it is a place where people must get rid of their illusions, otherwise they will take those with them to the next life. The people who didn't had no chance to develop their selfs, will not be held accountable for it, till they reached 40. God will not jduge people on that, and will them allow to leave their self-made hells, in the next life. But i believe God gives everybody the chance in their life, where ever you live, to reach a higher understanding, that will create results that are compared to rivers of milk.
When we die our conciousness will return to the Quantum field, this is even proven trough research, and will be thus confronted with the truths that are stored in it. This will be like a confrontation with God, a 'meeting' with Him. God made a law that only by maintaining your illusions, your hells, your denials of the truth(kufr), that when we are created again after the new big-bang, they will continue to be stuck in their illusions and will not get out of it unless God wants to. But the persons who have reached a higher acceptance by acknowledging the truth, and the most important truths are believing in one God and live righteous(truth that coincides with your conciousness) and that you will be confronted with yourself(the last Day), are to be allowed to have a higher level in the next creation. People who develop an even higher thinking(Djenna=garden we can't see, because it is in our thinking) then they will have a higher level in the next life then the people who only had the 3 basic truth's, as told in sura 55. Then it is the higher understanding that will create ultimate bliss for everybody, while a part will still be stuck in their illusions, but will not be able to let their hell's their illusions, touch other people. There will a barriere, that will not give them any chance of effecting the next life, as people who have the higher understanding will have the power.
I recommend also you to read my article on the afterlife
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0
As it will also give some insights how i think like i do. I'm still putting all the things together, also the question you gave me will be put into it. These are hard questions, but the Quran still gives me answers that coincides with what i say above. In time i will finish an article that eloborates on all these subjects.
Peace
