salat = meeting to administrate the islamic state
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Peace be upon you Marie,
I do not translate salaat directly to meditation, I translate it as "process", and the verses you have brought have made this position even stronger.
The PROCESS is meditation(attafakkur, attadabbur)
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Peace be upon you Danish,
(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he process.
In the beginning we have one of the actions that a submissive person is suppossed to carry out, then we have NOR, the another statement that he did not "salaat".
This would be a redundant statement if salaat equals commitment.
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Peace Kyle,
Peace be upon you Marie,
I do not translate salaat directly to meditation, I translate it as "process", and the verses you have brought have made this position even stronger.
The PROCESS is meditation(attafakkur, attadabbur)
the word salat doesn't occur in the verses I quoted. From these verses, there is no specifis time to ponder reflect/meditate in the creation, the Reading...
I prefer the definition of the meditation as the process of deeper reflexion (attafakkur, attadabbur) than the process of getting into a TRANCE state according to your last statement.
Our salat is due to the God (1082, 6162), one can follow closely (salla) the God's system through the process of meditation
Peace
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Instead, meditation is the way to get in touch with the UNSEEN that we are to trust in, so we can get the help from the God, with patience, to help reprogram our behavior. Just like TV and Radio programs us all day, we must purify ourselves from this worldy programming and maintain our process(salaat) of meditation to cleanse ourselves.
How can you "lose" the understanding of feeding the poor for example. Especially when they walk among you begging for food? That makes no sense. But what you CAN LOSE is the PROCESS by which you learn, therefore someone else can gain access to your mind and program it themselves. (Willie Lynch)
So Al Salaat = The Process, and that process is meditation. It is our ability to learn, to PROGRAM ourselves.
Does the definition "Al Salaat = The Process of turning toward God" satisfy you ?
Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional.
Where did you find in the quran that we need to get into TRANCE to learn and program ourselves ?
Peace
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Peace all,
Just my two cents about "inna alssalata kanat AAala almu/mineena kitaban mawqootan" (4103)
Another word with the same root than "mawqootan" is used in 485
- Whoever intercedes a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control/has control/ is Watcher/ watchful constantly over all things. over all things.
Man yashfaAA shafaAAatan hasanatanyakun lahu naseebun minha waman yashfaAA shafaAAatansayyi-atan yakun lahu kiflun minha wakana AllahuAAala kulli shay-in muqeetan
In the word muqeetan, there is the notion of the continuity, durability, constancy. The God has control all time over all thing and not at specific time. This notion may be common between muqeetan (485) and mawqootan (4103)
The verse 7023 illustrates this notion
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Except the MUSALLEEN. (Who are Musalleen?).
Illa almusalleena -
Who are always maintaining their salat / MUSALLEEN are those who always follow the Divine System..
Allatheena hum AAala salatihim da-imoona
We can join the congregations of Salat at any time we wish like for example in this forum )
In the same way we can organize a meeting for the salat at any time or day suitable and fixed by the community.In the light of 485, I wonder if we can read/understand the last sentence of 4103 in other manner
inna almu/min AAala alssalati (decree) muqeet
The believer should observe constantly this decree (salat)Looking for your thoughts
Thanks
Peace Marie,
What is the meaning of mawqootan in the dictionaries ?
- Whoever intercedes a good intercession, he will have a reward of it; and whoever intercedes an evil intercession, he will receive a share of it. And God has control/has control/ is Watcher/ watchful constantly over all things. over all things.
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Peace JM,
Peace Marie,
What is the meaning of mawqootan in the dictionaries ?
Thanks for your question, I will try to translate correctly what I have read in my dictionnary
waqtun mawqoot wa muwaqqat (here is the time which is dscribed by mawqoot and muwaqqat), it means ma7dood (limited, confined, defined, delimited, limited, restricted, finished).
"alssalata kanat AAala almu/mineena kitaban mawqootan" means that salat is decreed upon the belivers in definite (muwaqqata) times (awqat).The verb waqqata something means to declare, show, explain, make obvious, elucidate, clear up its limit (7ddahu).
The verb yaqitu When it is used in its negative form lam yaqit means he doesn?t appreciate, calculate, estimate, evaluate, measure, judge, predict a limit of something, in other word this thing is not limited by a number.
We can note that the verbs Waqqata and yaqitu can be used independently of time
About muqeet (485). unfortunatelyI didn't find anything.
Hope that helps
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Salat sounds better as 'commitment' than 'meditation' as it becomes more pro-active and dealing with other people and the environment which is in the same vein as the messages in the Quran. Not to discount meditation, but I dont think that act is something central to Islam, more of a peripheral act to help raise individuals to other levels of awareness.
As for masjids, I'm still clueless on that one, although seeing that as something non-physical, more of a 'temple' within ourselves is appealing. We've all seen how physical institutions always fall into ruin, usually by corruption which is caused by greed and the need for power. There are a few nice articles on the main freeminds site about the 'Islamic Republic' and such that detail nice systems that dont include leaders, but representatives dealing in the open always.
Anyway, peace all, continue the debate, its much appreciated.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
the word salat doesn't occur in the verses I quoted.
I know
From these verses, there is no specifis time to ponder reflect/meditate in the creation, the Reading...
Correct, we have to bring it all together.
I prefer the definition of the meditation as the process of deeper reflexion (attafakkur, attadabbur) than the process of getting into a TRANCE state according to your last statement.
Many people are turned off by the word TRANCE. But we go into TRANCE many times a day anyway, even though many do not understand it to be trance. Daydreaming is going into trance. Its not some spooky type of thing where you are in some type of stargate dimension or other ridiculousness, it is a very ordinary occurence. But we must MASTER this and be aware of this. We must GUARD ourselves from falling into these states unaware because we pick up bad conditionings this way. We must learn to put ourselves into Trance through meditation in order to reprogram our Minds/SPirits(nafs). This is the PROCESS how we purify the Nafs.
Our salat is due to the God (1082, 6162)
Yes, the God is on the Throne, we must ascend to that level through meditation.
one can follow closely (salla) the God's system through the process of meditation
I would say that it is the process(salaat) of meditation(attafakkur, attadabbur), which is turning to the God, patiently and persistently, so we may recieve HELP.
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Peace be upon you JM,
Does the definition "Al Salaat = The Process of turning toward God" satisfy you ?
No, although we are turning to the God through the process(salaat) of meditation. We are turning towards the qibla(focus) so that we can recieve wisdom from the God.
idolfree1 wrote
Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional.Where did you find in the quran that we need to get into TRANCE to learn and program ourselves ?
I find it in the God's Kitaab(the universe). I have studied meditation from the perspective of those before us and thier metaphors even match up, specifically the "medi=middle" which WUSTA refers to, and the merging of day and night, etc.
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Peace be upon you Beatnik,
Salat sounds better as 'commitment' than 'meditation' as it becomes more pro-active and dealing with other people and the environment which is in the same vein as the messages in the Quran
(339) So the forces of control(malaika) called him while he is maintaining "salaat(sallee)" in the private chamber...
"salaat" has nothing to do with dealing with other people. Yes, we do deal with people when we "hajja" (debate), when we invite to righteousness, we deal justly, etc. But salaat has nothing to do with this. Salaat is incoming information so that we cna purify OUR nafs(minds/spirit), THEN we can go into the world and support the Message.
Not to discount meditation, but I dont think that act is something central to Islam, more of a peripheral act to help raise individuals to other levels of awareness.
Well you are going to eventually get to a point where you dont capatalize the word "islam" and you will understand this is not about a religion, it is about the TRUTH of LiFE, we must pecefully submit(islam) to TRUTH. Meditation is a BIG part of life, and the MOST IMPORTANT as verified by the response of those in hellfire. Thier first answer to the question of WHY THEY ARE THERE Is that they were NOT of those who processed(meditated).
(7442) "What made you enter/follow in Hell ?"
(7443) They said "We were not from those who processed(meditated)."As for masjids, I'm still clueless on that one, although seeing that as something non-physical, more of a 'temple' within ourselves is appealing. We've all seen how physical institutions always fall into ruin, usually by corruption which is caused by greed and the need for power. There are a few nice articles on the main freeminds site about the 'Islamic Republic' and such that detail nice systems that dont include leaders, but representatives dealing in the open always.
The God says that the rejectors are not allowed in the masjids, this can only be a "mental" place where there is a veil preventing the mind or rejectors from reaching. Certainly rejectors cannot be detected by us so easily to be able to prevent them from entering a a building. Even this website, is it possible to prevent rejectors from entering here? Just think about it.
Anyway, peace all, continue the debate, its much appreciated.
Debate without arguing is always beneficial to us all D
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Peace be upon you,
I just wanted to post this again so it did not get lost and would be addressed.
(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he "salaat/Salli".
In the beginning we have one of the actions that a submissive person is suppossed to carry out, then we have NOR, then another statement that he did not "salaat".
This would be a redundant statement if salaat equals commitment because the claim is that charity is one of the commitments. The NOR gives is clear indication that salaat and charity are seperate comitments in themselves, therefore salaat cannot be "commitment".
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Peace be upon you JM,
Does the definition "Al Salaat = The Process of turning toward God" satisfy you ?
No, although we are turning to the God through the process(salaat) of meditation. We are turning towards the qibla(focus) so that we can recieve wisdom from the God.
What does it mean, in concrete terms?
Is it physical, or symbolic ?
Could you quote the verse when you found this info ?idolfree1 wrote
Meditation is the process of getting into a TRANCE state, which is what happens when you daydream or get emotional.Where did you find in the quran that we need to get into TRANCE to learn and program ourselves ?
I find it in the God's Kitaab(the universe). I have studied meditation from the perspective of those before us and thier metaphors even match up, specifically the "medi=middle" which WUSTA refers to, and the merging of day and night, etc.
Where can I read this kitaab ? And find in it that we need to get into TRANCE for salat ?
Peace
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Peace Kyle,
MEDITATION means to contemplate, ponder, reflect, think deeply, weigh-in mentally, mode of trance, mental concentration.
COMMITMENT means a pledge or promise to do something, dedication to a course of action, engagement, obligation, duty, involvement, undertaking liability, entrust, to do or perpetrate, to engage and bind.
PROCESS means a procedure, course, method, instruction, application, illustration of how to.
PROCESS OF MEDITATION means a course, method or procedure in order to contemplate, ponder, reflect, etc. An application to think deeply and to concentrate.
Given the above definitions, salaat cannot possibly mean, simply process. There is no specific method or course in order to meditate mentioned in Quran. Besides, there are several ways/methods/techniques of meditation, hence the ?plurality? (processes of meditation). The word meditation in itself is mentioned in the Quran to mean ponder, reflect, contemplate (see Marie?s post).
(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he process.
This not only sounds hilarious but ludicrous. A stranger would go berserk about what ?process? is this verse talking about and going head-over-heels trying to find the ?process/method of meditation? in the Quran.
On the contrary, let me ask you 3 questions pertaining to that verse
- Who is ?he? mentioned in that verse?
- What is meant by ?charity? in that verse.
- Out of many translations below, which one do you proclaim or accept to be the correct one or none at all.
M. Asad
for he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,R. Khalifa
For he observed neither the charity, nor the contact prayers.Mohsin Khan
So he neither believed nor prayed!Ahmed Ali
For he neither believed nor prayed,M. A. Qadri
Neither did he believe it to be true, nor did he offer the prayer.A. J. Arberry
For he confirmed it not, and did not pray.Muhammad Sarwar
The human being does not want to believe the Truth, nor does he want to pray.Sher Ali
For, he neither accepted the Truth nor observed Prayer;A.M. Daryabadi
He neither believed nor prayed,Abdul Mannan
For this person neither accepted the truth nor offered Prayer.E.H. Palmer
For he did not believe and did not pray;G.A. Parwez
Tell the person who does not testify to Our Law of Mukafat; who does not take the straight path;Shabbir Ahmed & Liaqat Ali
For he neither stood by the Truth, nor did he follow it.M.A. Khan
But he did not confirm, nor prayed;Mohammad Ahmed & Samira
So he did not give charity nor he prayed.Muhammad Ali
So he accepted not the truth nor prayed.Progressive Muslims
For he did not believe nor support.YUSUFALI
So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!PICKTHAL
For he neither trusted, nor prayed.SHAKIR
So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,Although there are abundance of verses related to our commitments/obligations, a few such verses, as examples, that begs your attention to commitments/obligations/duites (emphasis on underlined)
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The One who made the earth habitable for you, and the sky a structure. He sends down from the sky water, to produce all kinds of fruits for your sustenance. You shall not set up idols to rival GOD, now that you know.
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You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me.
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Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor shall you conceal the truth, knowingly.
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We made a covenant with the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except GOD. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe your obligations/commitments (Salat) and purify (Zakat) them". But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse.
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We made a covenant with you, that you shall not shed your blood, nor shall you evict each other from your homes. You agreed and bore witness.
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Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.
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We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.
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O people, eat from the earth's products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.
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He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
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Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they uphold these obligations (Salat) and keep them pure (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
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O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.
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It is decreed that when death approaches, you shall write a will for the benefit of the parents and relatives, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.
There is absolutely NO ?process or processes? NOR ?process of meditation? involved in dealing with such and abundance of other basic obligations/duties/commitments throughout the Quran and NEITHER does such obligations have anything to do with dusk and/or dawn. Sallaa and Zakaa are mostly found mentioned together. This simply means to uphold your commitments/obligations/duties (sallaa) as commanded in the Quran (examples underlined above) and to keep them pure (zakaa).
As I mentioned earlier It is our commitment/obligation/duty to understand and act upon all fundamental underlying principles mentioned in the Quran, in order to live a basic, simple and a happy life. This commitment/obligation/duty to do just that is ?salaat?.
God bless.
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Peace Kyle,
We must learn to put ourselves into Trance through meditation in order to reprogram our Minds/SPirits(nafs). This is the PROCESS how we purify the Nafs.
You always repeat the same thing but you don't bring one verse to support your view from the Reading. Salat is explained and detailed in the light of the Reading but I cannot force you to see it because you already choose your own definition.
Peace
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Peace be upon you Joe and all,
Thanks for the reminder.
Here is an old article I wrote that should help anyone interested see more where I am coming form.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1174
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Peace be upon you Danish,
All you did was state that my understanding was foolish. You still have not addressed why the verse has "charity" NOR "salaat". This discredits the argument of "commitment" because it is saying that salaat and charity are two different concepts by putting "NOR".
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Peace be upon you JM,
No, although we are turning to the God through the process(salaat) of meditation. We are turning towards the qibla(focus) so that we can recieve wisdom from the God.
What does it mean, in concrete terms?
We are dealing with mental concepts, not physical, but the results can be seen concretely. We have to realize that the God speaks the truth when He states that He does not change th econdition of a people until they change what is in thier MINDS/SPIRIT(nafs). This is a change within, so do not look for "concreteness".
So HOW do we change what is within? By leaqrning the truth and PROGRAMMING our MINDS/SPIRITS through the process(salaat) given to us by the God.
Is it physical, or symbolic ?
It is meta-physical. The point of focus(qibla), the focus that the God says we should ALWAYS FACE, cannot be physical or we would have to be facing a concrete building right now. To "face" the qibla means to take on the characteristics of the focus(qibla). What is the focus? The "masjid al haram" or "The place of hearing and obeying the restrictions", which we have learned is a place WITHIN, this is how th erejectors are forbidden, because it is a mental level that their "veils" prevent them from reaching.
Could you quote the verse when you found this info ?
Ayman has a good article on Free Minds site called "whats in a name" which can help you with this.
I find it in the God's Kitaab(the universe). I have studied meditation from the perspective of those before us and thier metaphors even match up, specifically the "medi=middle" which WUSTA refers to, and the merging of day and night, etc.
JM
Where can I read this kitaab ?Everywhere you look, from the horizons to within our Spirit(nafs)
JM
And find in it that we need to get into TRANCE for salat ?You have to study Trance, just like marketing advertisers do which is why MILLIONS of dollars are spent on commercials and advertising, the "process" WORKS!
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Salat is explained and detailed in the light of the Reading but I cannot force you to see it because you already choose your own definition
What is your view? Do you also hold "commitment(singular)" as your understanding?
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Peace Kyle,
All you did was state that my understanding was foolish. You still have not addressed why the verse has "charity" NOR "salaat". This discredits the argument of "commitment" because it is saying that salaat and charity are two different concepts by putting "NOR".
O man, O man, my entire previous post just flew over cuckoo's nest.
"Charity and commitment" are discredited but "charity and process" seems credible to you without any proper explanation whatsoever AS PER THE QURANIC VERSES? What a bummer! Talk about short cuts and foolish understandings.
Kyle, you can meditate during dusk and dawn and daydream inbetween all you want, I shall stick to the understanding of salaat to mean commitments/obligation/duties as clearly ordained on us. And ah yes, I do meditate every now and then and not specific to dawns and dusks, which by the way, is also an obligation.
Have a cheerful day and GOD bless.