=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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Apple Apple Apple....
All that babbling and you still failed to tell me how many ayahs in a portion. nope
This is because "portion" was the vaguest possible term you could use, despite all the backpeddling and empty rheotric. Why not just swallow your pride and admit it?Perhaps you are not cognizant of what the insertion of ayahs means.
The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
Thanks for the lesson in redundancy. Now please tell me how you differentiate between inserted text and original text. Thanks.
Please inform us how showing your ?proof-text? in its full intended context?.is ?sidetracking??.?
"Full context" and portion are 2 different concepts. Shall we look it up together or will leaving you the link suffice?
http//dictionary.reference.com/Showing the full context of your posited ayahs is not evading?
Sorry, but it is. Please see above.
Thanks once again for confirming the authority of my references.
You're hallucinating again. Take a deep breath and read it again.
Enoch was corporeally raised to God.
Your prime example (by using ?WarafaAAnahu?) cements our position.
Thanks for evading, again. How about answering the questions I posed regarding the logical paradox of omnipresence and your faulty understanding of "raised"?
Are you now ready to address the Arabic word ?bal??.and how it negates your posited 4.157?.?
Sorry, but my "portions" were in queue before you sidetracked. Common courtesy bro.
Peace,
Tay -
Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply?
Apple Apple Apple....
All that babbling and you still failed to tell me how many ayahs in a portion.
This is because "portion" was the vaguest possible term you could use, despite all the backpeddling and empty rheotric. Why not just swallow your pride and admit it?How many ayahs in a ?portion???
This would be as many as needed to show the context and meaning of your assertion.
Apparently, breaking with Islamic tradition is difficult, and you thought that positing 4.157 completely out of its context?.was somehow going to ?prove? your point.
Well?it didn?t.
Please tell us about the Arabic word ?bal? juxtaposed to the end of 4.157?.
Don?t keep running away from the scriptures that you are basing your eternal soul towards. wink
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Perhaps you are not cognizant of what the insertion of ayahs means.The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
Thanks for the lesson in redundancy.
So?now your Koran is redundant?.?
Now please tell me how you differentiate between inserted text and original text. Thanks.
Should we repeat our explanation once again?.since you seem to have failed to grasp it the first two times??
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Please inform us how showing your ?proof-text? in its full intended context?.is ?sidetracking??.?"Full context" and portion are 2 different concepts. Shall we look it up together or will leaving you the link suffice?
http//dictionary.reference.com/
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Showing the full context of your posited ayahs is not evading?Sorry, but it is. Please see above.
It?s too late to correct your one-hit wonder ayahs, now?..unless of course you want to go back and edit your initial reply in this thread?
Please?keep right on posting your position however you please?.plucked straight out of its intended context?and we will show you what it really means?by plugging it right back into its intended position within the text?
Perhaps?instead of name calling?you could actually start studying the mother-tongue that you are basing your eternal souls towards?.instead of defacing it out of its intended context...and pouring new meanings into the out-of-context-text?
Not very impressive?.by any standard?
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Peace Apple Pie,
You finally answered, in response to how many ayahs in a portion
This would be as many as needed to show the context and meaning of your assertion.
That wasn't so hard, was it? I'll put together a new effort addressing your proprietary definition.
Apparently, breaking with Islamic tradition is difficult, and you thought that positing 4.157 completely out of its context?.was somehow going to ?prove? your point.
Well?it didn?t
Actually it did. I provided the portion and you failed to refute it without expanding. Now that you've admitted you used the wrong word, we can try it again.
So?now your Koran is redundant?.?
No, your rhetoric is. And your reading comprehension is lacking as well. I'd double check my position before attempting sarcasm.
Should we repeat our explanation once again?.since you seem to have failed to grasp it the first two times??
Who is this "we" you keep mentioning? By the way, you never addressed the whole choosing sides thing. At any rate, you didn't explain how you differentiate between inserted text and original text. And you only addressed this once. Are you getting sleepy?
Here's what you stated
The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
The Arabic was divided up into ayahs at a later date?.hence, ayahs are artificial in nature.
You've provided no evidence, and no examples. Tell me where in this explanation one can find out how it is you differentiate between original text and inserted text. I hope I'm not asking for too much.
Thank you.
It?s too late to correct your one-hit wonder ayahs, now?..unless of course you want to go back and edit your initial reply in this thread?
Cop-out
Please?keep right on posting your position however you please?.plucked straight out of its intended context?and we will show you what it really means?by plugging it right back into its intended position within the text?
Please refine your use of the English language to the accepted definitions of words. You have enough on your plate redefining Arabic.
Perhaps?instead of name calling?you could actually start studying the mother-tongue that you are basing your eternal souls towards?.instead of defacing it out of its intended context...and pouring new meanings into the out-of-context-text?
I'm just playing by your rules Apples. Does that bother you? I told you I would do this months ago. You selectively read, I selectively read. You pull things out of context, I pull things out of context. You ask for portions, I provide portions. What's the problem?
Not very impressive?.by any standard?
Likewise. Kinda like looking in the mirror. wink
Peace,
Tay -
Tray ... or any one else who is game
We are all still waiting for you to show us where in the Quran it say JESUS was NEVER CRUCIFIED.
All you can produce are verses that says the Jews didn't crucify Jesus... This is straight out of the Bible like 90% of Muhammads material... after he twisted and distorted most of it..
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Salaam,
Well certainly it is said that isa has not been crucified by his enemies but one must also keep in mind before asking the wrong questions that he was also given victories by God . Humiliation was not his lot.
I certainly see no harm in the quran having Biblical material, or should I say material from the Vedas within it. The Bible is mostly material from the Vedas if you've read them.
Joe
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Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your response?
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This would be as many as needed to show the context and meaning of your assertion.That wasn't so hard, was it? I'll put together a new effort addressing your proprietary definition.
Putting your ?proof-texts? into their intended context is not hard at all?
You should try it sometime? wink
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Apparently, breaking with Islamic tradition is difficult, and you thought that positing 4.157 completely out of its context?.was somehow going to ?prove? your point.Well?it didn?t
Actually it did. I provided the portion and you failed to refute it without expanding. Now that you've admitted you used the wrong word, we can try it again.
4.157 is a dead ayah.
?Bal? erases it and replaces it with 4.158 & 4.159?
Period.
End of story.
Just face this undeniable fact of life.
Time to start standing up for what you believe in, instead of repeatedly running away from the word ?bal??
Let?s see if you run away yet again?.lol?. lol
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Perhaps?instead of name calling?you could actually start studying the mother-tongue that you are basing your eternal souls towards?.instead of defacing it out of its intended context...and pouring new meanings into the out-of-context-text?I'm just playing by your rules Apples. Does that bother you? I told you I would do this months ago.
What rules??
You selectively read, I selectively read.
You selectively read.
We do not.
You pull things out of context, I pull things out of context.
You pull things out of context.
We do not.
You ask for portions, I provide portions. What's the problem?
There is no problem.
You keep on posting in the same out-of-context manner (albeit the Muslim way)?.and we will put in all back into full context as it was intended to be?.
No problem at all?
Thanks?
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Peace Apple Pie,
You happened to catch me in an epiphanic moment. Grab a tissue cuz I have a confession...I admire and respect you. Really. No b.s. And I apologize for my antics. They've been mostly knee-jerk reactions. Perhaps it's the leo in me. I don't know. But what I do know are my own strengths and weaknesses. Linguistics and methodical research is not my cup of tea. It never was, and I don't think it ever will be.
Nevertheless, the reason I'm typing this is because I genuinely want to compliment you on your efforts. At the same time, I find it very sad. Not in the sense that you are sad, but this dialogue is sad. This back and forth debating has done nothing for me. I don't know about you, since I can't. But for me, it's been an utter waste of energy.
The way I see it, neither one of us can know for sure who's right and who's wrong. I mean in the sense of the big picture. No one can really know unless they've left this plane of existence and returned to talk about it. And even if they talk about it, only they know for sure. We don't know if they're telling the truth, and even if we believe something to be truth, it's still just knowledge, and knowledge is simply a compilation of expressions. The real truth should be felt.
So what's the point of all this debating? Is it to sharpen our own views? Is it to tow our own party lines? Is it to get closer to God? I don't know. I don't know why I debate. I thought I did. I thought I knew something. Turns out, the words typed on the screen are nothing more than my mind regurgitating what it believes to be something it can work with. And yet I see this. I am seperately observing what my mind has been doing. And it has not been doing anything to strengthen my self, only to feed itself. I hope this is understandable, because it is becoming crystal clear to me as I type.
So, I'm off for now. I'm sorry if I've offended you or anyone else. It wasn't me, it was my mind. wink
And I thank you for the dialogue throughout. Although I feel it was wasteful in the sense of time and energy, I am grateful as it has allowed me to objectively view my own antics. I'm sure you're a good person Apple Pie and I wish you the best.As for me, I'm done with debating and comparing and analyzing. It's been a few years now, and it really has done me no good. It's just confused me more than anything. It's time for me to return to the source. I'll be working on observing my inner chatter in an effort to strengthen my soul- too much mental noise is no good, I think.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace Joe,
You may be right. Either way, it's doesn't matter in the big picture. That's what I've been losing sight of. One can be a nuclear physicist and still have no inner peace. The mind is a machine. The soul is the essence. Strengthening the machine does nothing for the essence.
Peace,
Tay -
Greetings Tay,
Your honesty is most refreshing.
Thank you for being so candid?and telling us your thoughts?
May you find the truth through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
Take care?
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The truth is in us all. This is something Muslims dont understand because Muhammad left out the part about the New Covenant being placed in our inner parts and written in our hearts...
There is no escaping it, not only Muslims but all of us have this inner knowing of the New Covenant and what is right and wrong, that was giving to us all when Jesus brought in the New Covenant..
So because of the Covenant within us, Muslims will always have the doubt in the back of their mind when they read verses in the quran that contradict or violate the New Covenant.
Jer 3133 After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts
The New Covenant is always their... The Ego will try to ignore it but it will never go away
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Peace all,
321 If they debate with you, then Say "I have surrendered myself to God, as well as those who follow me." And say to those who have received the Scripture and the Gentiles "Have you surrendered?" If they have surrendered then they are guided, and if they turn away, then you are only to deliver, and God is watcher over the servants.
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then Say "Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God's curse upon the liars."
682 And his people debated with him. He said "Do you debate with me regarding God, when He has guided me? I do not fear that which you have set up except if my Lord wishes it so; my Lord encompasses all things with knowledge; will you not remember?"
4215 And those who debate about God, after they had been answered, their argument is nullified at their Lord. They have incurred a wrath, and will have a severe retribution.
So O believers, just deliver the message, make The God's curse upon the liars, do not fear that which the disbelievers set up, and wait peacefully for the Last Day.
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Peace Apple Pie, Albion,
ApplePie stated
Your honesty is most refreshing.
Thank you for being so candid?and telling us your thoughts?
Glad to hear it, and you're quite welcome.
May you find the truth through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
I'm sure there's good intention in your wishes, but I fear you've missed the point altogether. Nevertheless, thanks for the good vibes.
Albion stated
The truth is in us all.
Exactamundo!!
This is something Muslims don?t understand because...
That's where you'll lose me everytime. When we learn to cease generalizing via our self-imposed preconceptions, we can communicate. Until then, it's just a shouting match disguised as dialogue.
Seperation is a deluded choice, an illusion. We are one. The Muslims you're bashing are part of you. The Christians I bashed are part of me. We're all the same. We cannot seperate, no matter how much the mind insists on it.
Peace,
Tay -
Br mmkhan,
we should give all of the root mentioned in the dictionaries and not just- i think.
Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,There is a difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan.
It can be seen from the following verses
"Thaalika AL-KITAABU laa raiyba feehi, hudan-LILMUTTAQEEN" 22
"Shahru Ramadhaanal-lazee unzila feehi AL-QURAANU hudan-LIN-NAAS" 2185
Al-Kitaab is a guidance for Muttaqeen/ pious, so not anybody can be guided by Al-kitaab!
Al-Quraan is guidance for Naas/ people, so anybody can get guidance from AL-Qiraan!They both aren?t the same.
Another view
KTB is the root word of Al-Kitaab that means "Ordain/ destine/decree/transcribe/command/inscribe/write/record"
QRN is the root word of Al-Quraan that means "Proclaim/convey/call/reaherse/transmit/deliver/read/recite"My understanding and my current stand is as follows
"What we go through- form" is Al-Kitaab
"What we must convey, and must try and go through" is Al-QuraanAnd one thing is for sure that Al-Kitaab got the explanations for everything but only the pious can understand in detail unlike Al-Quraan which you and me , all can.
How?
We must have to look at the usage of actions/ events unfolding and the pattern of things unfolding in everyday. For example
"....... faghsilu wujoohakum wa aydiyakum ilal maraafiqi wamsahoo bi ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal ka'abaiyn....." 56
Most of the people to whom I met think that altering our actions by taking counsel of the learned is not mentioned. But if you were able to read it (Al-Quraan), you will get the explanation. But if you look at the actions or events (Al-Kitaab) you will not get the explanation unless you are pious enough.
This is just my personal understanding. All suggestions or comments are most welcome.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth?
Regards,
Thanks for comprehending ...........
hmm
hypno
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And this Al-Quran / The Reading is not that can be produced from other than Allah, but it is a confirmation, that is between his two hands and the explanation / details of Al-kitab / The Book there is no doubt in it from the Lord of the worlds.
Quran is the explanation, definitive of Al Kitab, kinda like a script of behavior.....Quran is just another attribute of Al Kitab
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Simple,
Kitab = book, writing, decree, law
Quran = Reading, Recitation, Study.
The article 'al' in context can imply 'this, that and the'. I'll just give an example. Say we are talking about the Quran and its use of kitaab and quran , You tell me 'The book clearly uses them differently' If the book was in our presence, your use of 'the' could imply 'this' or 'that' depending on the distance of the book from us (If it's far you meant 'that', if it's close you meant 'this'. If the book is only present in our minds while having this conversation you meant 'the specific book that you and I are discussing.' I hope you see what I mean.
I take the Kitaab in Surah 2 for instance to refer to the Arabic writing system and on a grander scale any writing system. In writing things down and reading things written down we find guidance, spiritual, physical and otherwise. This just goes along with the Quran's emphasis on reading and educating oneself. But it could mean. I don't think the letters have any hidden meanings. I came upon this conclusion independently but I have also seen it in a certain tafsir, the name and author of which escapes me now that I do not possess the book anymore.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Dear brother Anwar & all,
Salaamun Alaikum,The article 'al' in context can imply 'this, that and the'. I'll just give an example. Say we are talking about the Quran and its use of kitaab and quran , You tell me 'The book clearly uses them differently' If the book was in our presence, your use of 'the' could imply 'this' or 'that' depending on the distance of the book from us (If it's far you meant 'that', if it's close you meant 'this'. If the book is only present in our minds while having this conversation you meant 'the specific book that you and I are discussing.' I hope you see what I mean.
Allah says "Dthalikal Kitaab" or "Dthalika Al Kitaab". Dthalika is used for THAT not 'Al'.
And "Haadhal Quraan" or "Haadha Al Quraan". Haadha is used for THIS not 'Al'.
Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen.
May Allah guide us all towards His path.
Khan
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Peace,
This is going to be a bit difficult to try to explain to you but I will try. The demonstratives in Arabic in short are dhalika, hadhaa and dhaa. Variations of these based on tense and gender are u'laa, haa-ulaa', hadhaan, tilka, hadhihi and dhee.
As you can see what all of the first three have in common is 'dhaa.' This is the root of these demonstratives. We find in the Quran also dhaalikum, dhalikumaa and even dhalikunna.
I will explain why. the lika or dhalika is from laka (to/for you). The haa on the front of hadhaa is what is called haa at-tanbih. or the haa of attention. In Arabic there really is no difference between this and that. Even in English the two can sometimes be interchangeable. When you take a Modern Arabic class you learn that hadhaa means this and dhalika means that, but this is a ridiculous oversimplification. Especially when you start reading older texts and read the Quran seriously.
In short hadhaa can mean this or that, and dhalika can also mean this or that. Hadhaa is typically used for closer obects in Modern Arabic but you will see the rule broken in the Quran and in older texts. So 'dhaa' means 'what is in sight.' So, 'the book in sight' is dhaal-kitaabu. 'hadhaa' means 'Lo! what is in sight' so 'hadhaal-kitaab' 'Lo!The book in sight.' and dhalika is more like 'what is in your sight.' Again all of this is very literal, but helps to communicate the lack of any real difference between dhalika and hadhaa. This is beyond your basic Arabic, so if you can't see what I mean you don't have to argue me down. Just consider me crazy. It wouldn't be the first time.
Godbless,
Anwar