THEFT PUNISHMENT
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Salaam all.
Interesting discussion.
I just wan't to bring to your attention that there is a situation /condition in which both the cutting and the marking of hands would not be possible, namely when the thief has no hands. We are not created equal, most of us have two hands, some have only one, and others don't have any. Because someone have no hands doesn't necessarily prevent him/her from becoming a thief. So if we catch a handless thief (whether the thief was born that way or because of an accident or maybe even from previous cutting hand punishment for the person's previous stealing), what should we cut or marks?
salam.
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Peace rachmanadi,
Yes, i know, thank you for bringing it to our attention...thats what the discussion was leading up to...see, if the statement is 'cut their hands' there are two options
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Cut/mark the hand.
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Cut the hand off.
Both are interpretations of the original statement...and if both are correct, then which makes more sense? One correct extraction of the law in the statement can't be from the two because we already see that there are two possible options stemming from that one statement. That and the fact that we see in this day and age (even back then) people do not need hands to steal...I mean it's a seperate issue WHY the law is there...but what do you do with a handless man who steals? Thats where both interpretations fail and it must be looked at from another angle...God obviously means something else here. Which brings us to option three...
- Cut resources off or seperate the thief from etc...which is open for discussion...
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salam Marie .
Salam Fahad,
In the light of the Reading, jazaan/reward doesn't imply systematically a physical punishment
jazaa can be reward,recompense,requital,punishment
Agree, but according the context reward,recompense fit better
ok . recompense . and the recompense/reward is to amputate the hands .
but how can u say that it cannot be physical punishment ?
Because the answer to your question is given in 539, the robbers must repent and make reparations after their wrongdoing.
539 means ,if the thieves repent they must be forgiven . so only the repeat offenders' hands will be amputated .
take a look at 533 . the reward can be physical punishment.
This is not the same context, please read before and after 533 (war).
u said the reward cannot be a physical punishment . i showed u it can . it can also be the punishment in the case of theft .
I insist only on one point, one cannot stop reading 538 at this satge
"Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma
The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut their hands "
because "bimakasaba/from what they gained illegally " is a key word to get a full understanding of this verse.The verse does not say ?you shall cut/seperate their hands from what they gained illegally? . The translation is ?cut off/seperate their hands as a punishment for what they have earned?
Then 538 can have new meaning
The male thief, and the female thief, you shall separate their hands from what they gained "illegally".
every other meaning , huh ?
you forgot to put ?AS A PUNISHMENT? in between .
it clearly means ?separate/amputate their hands AS A PUNISHMENT FOR WHAT THEY HAVE EARNED .? , not ?separate their hands from what they gained "illegally".?salam.
fahad. -
Then 538 can have new meaning
The male thief, and the female thief, you shall separate their hands from what they gained "illegally".
and by the way ,where is the reward/recompense in only seperating their hands from what they have earned ? the owners get their stolen stuff back , but what is the recompense for the thieves then ? where is the reward ?! oh , u even left the word "reward" out of your new meaning and translation of 538 .
no "reward" in your new meaning of 538 . and no reward for the thieves. !
peace.
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Peace all...
If the punishment is to fit the crime...eye for an eye...how does taking a loaf of bread from a store=becoming handicapped?
Further, there is no compulsion in the deen. chopping off hands is forcing someone not to steal...i still haven't figured out the handless theif analogy, but i suppose in this day and age anything is possible.
To me, the story of Joseph explains what we are to do. If Joseph was depicted as GOD-serving, enough that an entire chapter was devoted to him, unlike any other man in quran, we cannot assume that his choice in dealing with the "thief" was contrary to GOD's way, as he was continually rewarded by GOD for his actions.
Eye for an eye, but mercy is better...so, not cutting a thief's hand off is better, even if you think that's what it means...and we are to follow that which is BEST.
There is one exception to the eye for an eye rule, thoroughly explained in the quran adultery.
This is singled out as a gross offense by name, and the eye for an eye scenario would not work...you slept with my wife, so I'll sleep with yours? This is a case where even exchange for the crime committed leads to more problems rather than peaceful solution, which is why not only is a specific punishment given, but GOD in the quran tells us not to mercifully let the offenders go without the punishment. Specific rules, specific consequence, no exceptions.
Everywhere else, you can seek justice, but mercy is better, and ultimately, the punishment is in GOD's hands.
If you are merciful to the thief, he may repent. If he continues, and is never caught...he will still get his from GOD...perhaps in this life, more than likely also in the next.
My two cents.peace,
brian -
Peace all,
I have no problems with accepting that if there is a verse in the quran that say's "poke the eye out of any man who dares to look at any other woman except his wife"...I assure you i would comply...The thing is...if there is a slightest possibility that poking, chopping or marking is not there, i don't want to end up doing/accepting any of these things and thinking it's a law from God. After all, it's all fun and games till someone loses an eye...
The problem i see here is, there are three possible interpretations...The literal two, marking and chopping off and the figurative, seperate resources etc.
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Chopping off If one claims this is a law from God, then it opens up all possible manner's of abuse...one can get his hands chopped off for stealing an apple ten times...
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Marking Acceptable...and seems good especially for cases like child molesters etc and also thieves...it can be utilised universally except for the case of the handless thief...btw have any of us ever seen a handless thief or heard of one? I'm not saying that there is an unwritten law that thieves without hands will never steal...because thats just weird...i'm curious...
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Seperating resources etc Seems good but doesn't seem to imply any punishment as law...could this mean that after the thief gives his apologies, refunds, recompenses the stolen party...one can administer the local brand of justice? One can't claim that form of justice is a law by God though...and can be changed if deemed unworthy, injust or plain stupid...
The case of the handless thief...well, chopping off is out...marking his foot would not be going with the law (maybe it's spirit?), in any case, we can't follow the law to the letter then, unless its option three...We could also have option four where we let him off because we know handicapped people already get the best/free parking and less taxes...so why not let him have his day in the sun...or maybe scratch option four...
1a)The thing is, a govt can claim chopping off as God's law, thus something that can't be overturned incase of a travesty or abuse of the same, if incase they treat it as a manmade justice system, then it can be touched and overturned in favour of something more appropriate that wouldn't allow such abuse...thats the problem with option 1 and the fact that i'm not too keen on amputation especially since it is not the only interpretation.
2a)I'm okay with marking...but with the handless thief means it can't be universally applied so we improvise?
3a)No punishment deemed by God but making sure the recompense is dealt with...and then a manmade justice system advocating or recommending a punishment is good...at least we get to change the laws if they are moronic...
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You are right, Saladin In , aydeehuma can designate physical hands, if we assume that the 2 hands have to be cut.
If only one hand is to be cut (as the sunnis claim), it cannot.So, aydeehuma in can be either literal or figurative.
No, assuming it is literal, 2 questions (to sum up what other people have said)
- Why do you claim the hand should be amputated, and not simply marked ?
- How do you punish recidivists ? Do you cut off their feets ?
- Do you really think my 2 hands have to be amputated if I steal a egg, as if I steal a bullock?
If the punishment is to be the same whatever has been stolen, can this law really be compatible with the law of equivalence " an eye for an eye... "
And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
Peace
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peace savage_carrot .
1231 does not tell to what extent the hands were cut , or how deep the cut was . so when God tells us to cut the hands , without telling any limit , it definitely means to cut the whole hand
Whoa...how did you get to this conclusion? If your uncle doesn't tell you how much you are supposed to give to your great aunt Tilly (but you know you have to)...you will magically turn over your entire bank account to her? When the context in 1231 is clear that you don't just hack your hands off after seeing a man no matter how wondrous he is...and the fact that you yourself admit there is no mention of how much (a finger/a thumb etc) How in the world do you say lop off the entire thing?
cuz if there was a limit ,God would have said so . 1231 does not contain any command . it is a story of the past . all necessary details have been given in it . details about how much of their hands they cut are not necessary , right ? BUT in case of 538 , the verse contains a COMMAND FOR US TO CARRY OUT , if we were supposed to cut the thieves' hands to a certain limit , the limit would have been provided in detail .
also checkout (again, sigh) 2071 , 2649 , 533 , 7124 . thats how .
I think Marie's explanation of 538 is pretty good though...
you r free to believe . peace .
EDITED.
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Peace saladin,
cuz if there was a limit ,God would have said so
Once again, if we cut our hand, it doesn't mean we cut our hand off...it can mean we cut our hand...we marked our hand...God does ask us to use reasoning...
also checkout (again, sigh) 2071 , 2649 , 533 , 7124 , 1231 . thats how .
You still have not proved that it's cutting rather than cutting off...If you are trying to link brutal tactics as that of execution as evidence that cutting must mean cutting off, we also have exile/banishment included in 533...the rest talk about pharoah, a fine upstanding role model...and as seen 1231 is marking, if you still think it's cutting OFF of both hands, I dare you to show me how you can cut off your left hand after cutting off your right.
you r free to believe . peace
As are you...but if one starts a discussion, we must talk about all the points...I for one don't want to hold on to a wrong belief especially when it involves body parts and knives...Peace.
after other user edited previous post
Okay, lets say 1231 is not important...doesn't matter...we still need to address the issue of cut vs. cut off...
If God has not provided the details it does NOT mean its the whole hand, it could be that the interpretation is up to us, keeping in mind the law of equivalence...that still makes cutting OFF an extremely unlikely interpretation when you can't gauge the worth of one hand to the goods stolen and the fact that we should NOT have to at all, unless the thief has stolen someone else's hand by hacking it OFF...it is absolute madness to start discussing the worth of body parts to goods stolen...whereas on the other hand (pardon the pun), recompensing the person whose goods have been stolen by work or monetary value etc is something within the realms of reason...
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Peace Saladin,
Do you really agree with this ?
http//www.apostatesofislam.com/media/video/handcutting_video_islam_200kbps.wmv
Or would you prefer that the 2 hands shall be cut off ?
what are u trying to show bro ? agree with what ?
yes . 2 hands shall be cut off. -
Salaam all.
Interesting discussion.
I just wan't to bring to your attention that there is a situation /condition in which both the cutting and the marking of hands would not be possible, namely when the thief has no hands. We are not created equal, most of us have two hands, some have only one, and others don't have any. Because someone have no hands doesn't necessarily prevent him/her from becoming a thief. So if we catch a handless thief (whether the thief was born that way or because of an accident or maybe even from previous cutting hand punishment for the person's previous stealing), what should we cut or marks?
salam.
salam rachmanadi.
how do we cut the hands of a thief who doesnt have any hand ? we dont .
the stolen stuff should be returned to the owners if possible .
the state can decide what the punishment for such a thief should be , or if there should be any punishment or not . -
SaLaM Saladin
I want to put u on the spot and ask you if that is fair and what YOU will do.
According to you, if someone steals, cut off their hands. OK, assume you stole my bucket of KFC. I found you, and i cut your hands off. Assume you have a family. A wife and 2 children. That is why you stole my bucket of KFC, so u can feed them.
NOW, i cut ur hands off, which u completely agree with. The next verse
Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes reparations, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
How will it help you if God accepts your repentance or not? now you cant feed your family, you cant feel your children. What good has it done, that GOD forgave u?
I want to know, how would YOU feel if your hands were cut off AND what YOU will do once you repent i.e. How will u support your family now? -
Salaam all,
Aha so now Saladin is in action again.
You seems to like to cut off things if I can remember correct!?
Wasn't it you who thought that behead someone was OK.
You scare the hell out of me with your cruelty.
Sis Majidah
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Wasn't it you who thought that behead someone was OK.
You scare the hell out of me with your cruelty.
u are just trying to be more merciful than Allah . u just try to change the commandments of Allah because u think they are brutal and unjust .
Allah knows what is better for us . trust Him .
peace . -
I want to put u on the spot and ask you if that is fair and what YOU will do.
According to you, if someone steals, cut off their hands. OK, assume you stole my bucket of KFC. I found you, and i cut your hands off. Assume you have a family. A wife and 2 children. That is why you stole my bucket of KFC, so u can feed them.
salam Jaxal .
under such conditions ,the laws can be relaxed , . for example a man has murdered someone to save the life of his family . he was forced to do it .now he did commit a crime . but because he was forced to do it , then his punishment should not be exactly the same of a normal murderer .
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SaLaM Saladin
I want to put u on the spot and ask you if that is fair and what YOU will do.
According to you, if someone steals, cut off their hands. OK, assume you stole my bucket of KFC. I found you, and i cut your hands off. Assume you have a family. A wife and 2 children. That is why you stole my bucket of KFC, so u can feed them.
NOW, i cut ur hands off, which u completely agree with. The next verse
Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes reparations, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
How will it help you if God accepts your repentance or not? now you cant feed your family, you cant feel your children. What good has it done, that GOD forgave u?
I want to know, how would YOU feel if your hands were cut off AND what YOU will do once you repent i.e. How will u support your family now?salam Jaxal.
the laws are to be applied in a islamic system . an unislamic system produces injustice and poverty etc which lead to crime .
if someone forced to steal because of poverty and hunger , i believe the laws should be relaxed .
we are encouraged to help the poor and needy , by being charitiable .
under such system the need to steal should not arise .
but if the thief repents then he should be forgiven (539) . the hand cutting punishment is for repeat offenders . -
SaLaM Saladin
So now you believe that hands should be chopped off of repeat offenders? Alright, Same scenario.
You come back and steal my bucket of KFC. I catch you again. According to you, i should chop ur hands off. You repent, God forgives. How will you feed your family now?