pets and animals

99percentcow

i was at a safari park yesterday, and a petting zoo a few days before. Whilst I was there I couldn't help but be amazed by all the different types of animals, their differences, their brilliant colours, textures, patterns and behaviours.

I couldn't help but stare in amazement at God's creations. Reading about how endangered some of these species are whilst watching the lions and tigers caused me to shed a tear...

And it made me wonder. Do these animals go to heaven when they die? I wonder if they believe in or know about their creator? And do they have the ability to choose between right and wrong, or do they use instinct alone? So are animals born Muslims? Instinct Alone Muslims?

Whilst in the monkey section, I had a brief conversation with one of the Safari Park rangers, who was telling me about monkeys. I asked if they might come and jump on me. She said they might do, but if they did it would be only to steal something... eg sunglasses or a dummy, or things out of pockets...

Does that mean the monkeys are thieves and have sinned? Or are they safe because they don't know that it is wrong to steal? I have been told all children under the age of 10 automatically go to heaven because they are not able to distinguish between right and wrong.

And if this is the case, can we argue that we too as humans can use our inbuilt instinct to know the difference between right and wrong (that develops as we grow older) combined with our intellectual ability, and our logic and reason... which would mean that the Qur'an, although useful and helpful and re-assuring) could be viewed as unnecessary, though incredibly useful.

This analogy may help communicate my point you can take an exam without reading the study guide before hand, but if you do read the study guide first and learn the answers, you will do much better in the exam. However, if the pass mark is only 50% you may still have a chance to pass using no study guide, only common sense, instinct, logic and reason...

arnoldyasin

Peace,

First of all, it is your thinking that is a place heaven or not, heaven is not a physical place, the next life, the next earth is. It is our Djenna(=garden we can't see) that will create the beautifull place as desribed in the Quran, as the state of mind described as Gehenna(=place of destruction) that will be a barriere(=Jahim) to create higher enviroment, and the results of their behaviour in the next life is described as agony and pain. So we can attain the first steps of heaven or hell here on earth. So the real question is, will there be any animals in the next life?

There is not a thing that moves on the earth, no bird that flies on its wings, but has a community of its own like yours. There is nothing that We have left out from recording. Then they will all be gathered before their Lord.

So they will be gathered before God, returned to Him. And they are submitters as all things are submitters.

Many of the jinns and human beings have We destined for Hell, who possess hearts but do not feel, have eyes but do not see, have ears but do not hear, like cattle, even worse than them. They are people unconcerned.

Here are cattle declared better then rejecters of the Truth.

Do you see how all things in heavens and the earth, the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, trees and beasts, and men in abundance, pay homage to God? Yet there are many who deserve the punishment. And whosoever God disgraces will have none to raise him up in honour. God does verily as He will.

Here is shown they too pay homage in their own way, as they submit to God's laws.

God says in the Quran multiple times that He will initiate and repeat His creation, so if the planets and all are created, then this also includes the life on it.

To Him will you all return God's promise is true. It is He who originates creation, then will revert it, so that He may reward those who believe and do good things in all justice. But those who deny the truth will receive boiling water to drink and grievous punishment, for they disbelieved.
104 To Him is your ultimate return, all of you. This is GOD's truthful promise. He initiates the creation, then repeats it, in order to reward those who believe and lead a righteous life, equitably. As for those who disbelieve, they incur hellish drinks, and a painful retribution for their disbelieving.
It is verily He who initiates and repeats.
1448 On the day when the earth shall be changed into a different earth, and the heavens (as well), and they shall come forth before Allah, the One, the Supreme.
1448The day will come when this earth will be substituted with a new earth, and also the heavens, and everyone will be brought before GOD, the One, the Supreme.

3681 Is not the One who created the heavens and the earth able to recreate the same? Yes indeed; He is the Creator, the Omniscient.

Part of the structure of creation is life, not only us, but also the animals and all.

4222 You will see the transgressors worried about everything they had committed; everything will come back and haunt them. As for those who believed and led a righteous life, they will be in the gardens of Paradise. They will receive whatever they wish from their Lord. This is the great blessing.

So i believe that animals indeed will be part in the next creation, as is also proven in Quantum physics, as we and all creation will remain as imprints in the field, the mother-book, and will be created new again, and our conciousness will join our new bodies again, the same will be for the animals and all.

Read this short intro on the scientifical approach to the next creation
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0

As for the monkeys being thieves, of course not. It is about intention, monkeys cannot be put under the same category as human behaviour, otherwise eating animals is also murder and we should be punished for it.

As for the age of ten, this made up number, and falls under the same category as turning 18 gives you the right to vote. The real age in the Quran is 40, before that age you are not responsible for understanding the Reality and Truth, after that you will be held accountable for your rejection of the Truth. But this doesn't mean you can do what you want till your forties, because if you know your wrong, then it fall s under your responsibility and you will be held accountable for it, so in this world we have to judge on the maturity of the person, not a direct age, while God gives a limit of 40 for understanding and accepting His message, as it takes a long time for the development of knowing that you need to reject the illusion that will only create hell in this life and the next.

4615-17 We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him arduously, gave birth to him arduously, and took intimate care of him for thirty months. When he reaches maturity, and reaches the age of forty, he should say, "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Let my children be righteous as well. I have repented to You; I am a submitter."
It is from these that we accept the righteous works, and overlook their sins. They have deserved Paradise. This is the truthful promise that is promised to them.
Then there is the one who says to his parents, "Woe to you; are you telling me that (after death) I will come back to life? How come those who died before us never come back?" The parents would cry for GOD's help and say, "Woe to you; please believe! GOD's promise is the truth." He would say, "Tales from the past!"

As you can see, maturity of life revolves around the age of 40, which is also an important age in psychology, and in neurology, as it after the age of 39, the memory and some other brainfunctions will start declining. Also is to been seen, that rejection or acceptance creates immediate hell or heaven, as can been attained here in this life, and will be prolonged in the next.

As that your concience is enough idea, i don't agree in total, as it took philosophy years and years to develop the humanrights and democracy ideas that were already in the Quran 1400 years ago, so no, concience is not enough for all things in life. As it is also determined and structured by your surroundings and not only directly part of your instinct. If you grow up in a family and surroundings where adultery is allowed and even promoted, it would not give a bad feeling in your concience, this also applies to many other harmfull behaviour. So your concience is important and one of the main sources of knowing right from wrong, that is why the Quran mostly talks about what is true in Deen and not immediately what is right or wrong as you already most of those,thar is why the Quran mostly gives laws and advises for societies, and gives true information about some history, and it is the guide to Reality.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace 99percentcow. I have maintained for some time now that we all have an 'in-built' instinct of right and wrong,...which can be expanded/strengthened by experience,knowledge,scriptures etc,thus leading to good deeds...Or contracted/weakened by covering up 'reality',being deliberately ignorant/selfish,and indulging in inappropriate deeds.

I feel animals have the same instinct,but their form and functions can be different,so their 'morality' can be different to that of humans.
I believe heaven and hell are metaphors for 'states of mind'(ie hopeful,peaceful,happy=heaven,... excessively stressed, very unhappy, very unpeaceful without appropriate reasons=hell.)
I believe animals have free-will too,but maybe incline more to peace than us,or have less opportunities to create large-scale mischief than us.
I dont believe that 'death' is the end of life for anyone,but all beings (human or animal.) will travel to other dimensions or new 'bodies'/forms.
Most children are already in 'heaven' anyway... This is because they are full of joy/happiness/peace,and have not corrupted their natural 'instincts for good...
Peace all. ps;Yes i agree,what matters is not just the study guide (ie quran or bible etc.)
but the application of your natural instinct for good,to your surroundings,environment,situation,context,and applying any source of knowledge that you find personally beneficial...

phoenix1

peace arnoldyasin,

democracy existed before the quran. So did human rights. These concepts have been alive since the dawn of time.

If you grow up in a family and surroundings where adultery is allowed and even promoted, it would not give a bad feeling in your concience, this also applies to many other harmfull behaviour. So your concience is important, but the Quran is important to form it for you.

By teaching their child that adultery is OK, they have influenced his self. He has moved away from his inner conscience and is following his parents. Now he can either learn through experience that adultery is wrong, or stay in the dark and suffer.
Sometimes, even the quran can teach people that killing people is ok.

I do agree that taking the quran along with our conscience is the right way to go.

And if this is the case, can we argue that we too as humans can use our inbuilt instinct to know the difference between right and wrong (that develops as we grow older) combined with our intellectual ability, and our logic and reason... which would mean that the Qur'an, although useful and helpful and re-assuring) could be viewed as unnecessary, though incredibly useful.

That, 99percentcow, is pretty much true.
We have to realize that the Quran isn't the only thing God has given us. What if every copy of the quran was destroyed?
What about the people who lived before us? when all these scientific facts in the quran weren't yet revealed to be facts (i think they might serve a different purpose as well)? They didn't have clear cut proof (if that really is what it is) that the quran is the "work of God."
Paganism made much more sense than the quran's teachings at the time it was revealed.
My point is, conscience comes first, then comes the quran (so that we actually learn something good from it). But if we don't have the quran, then our conscience is enough.

unknownuser

Peace phoenix and all. Couldnt agree more phoenix...Excellent post...

phoenix1

peace

about the animals...
i don't think they can be subject to the same requirements as us. They aren't intelligent enough to have a conscience. They follow their instincts. The sole purpose for most animals is their survival. They live to survive.
We, on the other hand, are different. We know when following our 'survival instincts' is wrong, and we have to control them.
For example, emotions are important to our survival. We can't make decisions without them. yet we shouldn't make our decisions based solely on our emotional response to something.
Animals always follow their emotional response, unless they are a bit more intelligent (like monkeys).

So if we take heaven to be a state of mind, how much heaven animals feel is how much of a conscience they have which i think relates to their intelligence levels.

99percentcow

Peace Arnold
Thanks so much for taking the time to write your reply to me. I appreciate that, and found your comments really interesting... Especially intrigued by the link to the Quantum Physics theories about the afterlife!

So would you say that it's a possibility that the reality that we are aware of NOW, could well be our own heaven or hell that we are currently living as a direct result of what we did in a past life? It would stand to reason that when you are having a "bad patch" in your life that it is a punishment for something.
Maybe in a past "world" and "life" we had the chance to read the Qur'an (or similar guide book) and then we lived our "lives" and died, were resurrected and then came to Earth as we know it... but that might be considered a bit of an unfair trick, if you had taken the test, passed with distinction, and then found out your reward was yet another test...?!

And do you think we WOULD remember the past life, or that we would NOT remember it? In the example you gave at the beginning, it implies we do die and come back as something else; we just don't realise it (eg if you have training, the part of you that didn't know what you have just learnt "dies" and is replaced by the part of you that knows the knew bit of info)

I can't honestly say I have ever remembered any of my past lives, (though I know some people claim to) but maybe it is an explanation for things like de'ja vu or certain dreams...? Or maybe this is getting far fetched?!

Interesting topic though! Would be happy to discuss further!