Was Jesus Created...?
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All,
What does the Koran state regarding Jesus being "created" or self-existing....?
Please be prepared to bring forth Koranic material for your position...
Thanks...
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SaLaM AP
She said "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human has touched me?" He said "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it "Be", and it is."
The verse is pretty self-explainatory.
Well...this English rendering leaves alot to be desired...
What is your position...?
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SaLaM AP
I will choose to keep my opinion on this subject to myself, for the time being. But basically, When Mary asked the angel how she could be pregnant when no man has touched her. The angel replies tht it is easy for God to do. All God has to say "Be" and it is done.
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PEace be upon you,
The several verses already listed show that "isa" was CREATED, like all other creation.
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Greetings All,
Thanks for your replies?
Let?s concentrate on the most popular Koranic ?proof-text? used in the ?creation? controversy of Jesus?
3.59?
Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu
Our position is thus?
Jesus was not created.
Furthermore?Jesus is co-equal with God.
3.59 amply demonstrates these points?
Let?s look?
The authors?, who penned the Muslim book of faith, first used the following Arabic term when comparing Jesus to ?allah??
= ?Mathalu?
?Mathalu? definition
Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root ?mathala?, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 - 526Already?we can clearly see the comparison of Jesus to ?allah? is one of
? Similitude
? Equivalent
? Analogue
? Resemble
? Bear a likenessNow?look at the next Arabic term used when comparing Jesus to ?allah??
= ?inda?
?inda? definition
A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place. The vicinage, or the quarter, tract, region, or place, of a person or thing. Used in the manner pf a preposition, though properly a prefixed noun signifying a place (or anything local); of time when prefixed to a noun signifying a time denoting presence, i.e. perceptible presence, and also ideal presence, or rather the place of presence; and nearness, or the place of nearness; or the utmost nearness, and therefore it has no dim.; i.e. it is primarily used in relation to that which is present with a person (or thing), in any adjacent part or quarter with respect to that person (or thing); or in relation to that which is near to a person (or thing); thus is signifies at, near, nigh, by, near by, or close by, a place, or thing; with, present with, or in the presence of, a person or persons, or a thing or things; at the abode of a person; at the place of , or in the region of, a thing; or among , or amongst, persons or things and at, near, nigh, or about, a time; and at, or on, or upon, denoting the occasion of an event or an action; here; with; by; at the point of; about; from; in the presence of. The word denotes the idea of nearness, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place.
is generally best rendered in the estimation, or sight of Allah. Sometimes it denotes comparison. Not alone.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2170 - 2172
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 391Amazingly?not only does the classic Arabic tell us that Jesus is the equivalent or similitude ?Mathalu? of ?allah??but we are also told that Jesus is present with ?allah??as ?allah? is not alone?!
The blatant fact that ?allah? is not alone is confirmed elsewhere in your book of faith, as demonstrated in this grouping?
Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin
81.19 That he truly is a Holy messenger's Word.
Occurrences of ?laqawlun? in the Koran 3
Locations 69.40, 81.19, 86.13We already know that sura 86 is discussing Jesus?.and that Jesus is the WORD spoken of in 86.13?
Then?
Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin
81.20 Of power at of the throne highly positioned/distinguished.
Here we are informed that ?the Holy messengers Word? i.e. Jesus, is ?inda??or present at the throne.
Furthermore?we are told that Jesus is ?quwwatin? at the throne?.i.e. singular; meaning ?and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread?
Interestingly?.the authors? of the Koran make the special point of illustrating that two things are ?twisted? together to make one?!
Then?
MutaAAin thamma ameenin
81.21 Obeyed there at the same time or place, faithful/loyal.
Absolutely amazing?..the ?two? that are actually ?one? are now to be ?mutaAAin??i.e. ?Obeyed one; who is entitled to be obeyed?
Thus?.it is crystal clear that Jesus is God Almighty.
Straight from the Muslim book of faith, as penned by its? authors?
Comments thus far?.?
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SaLaM AP
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with God, then He will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
Edit
Analyse this verse. Especially the part
.....Whoever sets-up partners with God, then He will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
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Don't bother with the missionary, nothing you say will change Apple's mind. Just let Apple Pie rant, as if anybody here's gonna be converting to Christianity anyway...
Apple Pie We know what you're trying to do. We are not interested.
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Salaam ApplePie,
For one who does not know a thing about basic arabic grammar you sure do try to make it seem like you do. You make no sense in your proposition. I would close this topic because your post is so assinine, but even the person whose mind is like a monkey may express what they believe no matter how far it deviates from the plain presentation of a matter.
Joe
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LOL!! And what is so bizzare is, he cannot even defend his own beliefs via his own book , yet, he wants wants Al-Quran to prove what he and his book cannot...the divinity of Jesus! Apple Pie, is a fine example of pride and imagination run amok.
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I would close this topic because your post is so assinine.....
Thats another way of saying you can't debate at a rational level...
We know what you're trying to do. We are not interested.
Why try to make yourself sound important by speaking in the "Majestic Plural" all the time.
The last 3 post in this thread look like a panic attack to stop the truth from being told
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Peace be upon you,
I find it amusing that of the responses that were given to the original question, no one gave the answer he was hoping. So he then had to tekll us to CONCENTRATE on the verse he hoped we would give. No response was given to the verses given in response to the original question.
Furthermore, by what stretch of the imagination can we say that "Isa, son of Marium" is being compared to "The God"? The comparison is isa, son of Marium" to "Adam". Both are created. All of creation is created, there is none but the One God, all else is illusion.
Did I miss something?
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Why try to make yourself sound important by speaking in the "Majestic Plural" all the time.
....Because I know I'm not alone when voicing the concern. I don't need to do multiple personalities like you.
The key word is 'khalaq', 'create'. 359 say that Isa was created just like Adam. Apple Pie's analysis blatantly ignores the 'khalaq'. But we know Apple Pie will ignore that because a detail like that won't prevent Apple Pie from twisting facts.
Apple Pie, albion, we know you want us to convert to Christianity.
We are not interested.
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Peace be upon you,
The only conversion that should take place is from "religion"(sects) to peacefulness(islam).
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Because I know I'm not alone when voicing the concern
Not only do you try to make yourself sound important by speaking in the "Majestic Plural" like God does, but you also try to say you are also "All Knowing" like God is too.. interesting!!!!... Are you sure your not God?
we know you want us to convert to Christianity.
Wait !!.. I take that back, God isnt paranoid so you cant be him !!
But your still speak in the Majestic Plural, so you must be just trying to make yourself sound important for some reason.
LOL!! And what is so bizzare is
No!!. what is bizarre is a two horned creature called Dhulqarnain... And how Muhammad made up that character from one on Daniels Dreams, in the Book of Daniel.
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Peace be upon you ,
No!!?. what is bizarre is a two horned creature called Dhulqarnain... And how Muhammad made up that character from one on Daniels Dreams, in the Book of Daniel.
Hmmm kind of like the virgin birth story that was written before biblical times. Seems you "religionists" are only comfortable going back to the bible, but never before it, yet want to scream "copycat" all the time.
If you stopped being a SECTARIAN and joined in the journey towqards peacefulness, then ALL of these stories would bring you to a common agreement.
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... And how Muhammad made up that character from one on Daniels Dreams, in the Book of Daniel.
1-) Do you think Mohammad copied or made up? Between you and Apple Pie decide your position...
2-) Does the fact that you see similarities with the Bible form your conclusion that Mohammad took this from the Book of Daniel? Can you somehow prove your assertion since you seem so confident it is the absolute truth. Come on we want proofs.
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Apple Pie,
Amazingly?not only does the classic Arabic tell us that Jesus is the equivalent or similitude ?Mathalu? of ?allah??but we are also told that Jesus is present with ?allah??as ?allah? is not alone?!
Your premise relating to the logical comparison is wrong and you know it!
The logical construct of the verse is not what you allude to
It is a comparison of eesa to adam in the sight of GOD. Your definitions do not cover the logical construct of the verse and it is clearly wrong.
3.59?
The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be". And he was.
Jesus was told "be" then he was. Your explanation ignores the second part of the verse too which contradicts you.
It is interesting to note that we did not see your rendering of this verse, why would this be I wonder?