Was Jesus Created...?
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I would close this topic because your post is so assinine.....
Thats another way of saying you can't debate at a rational level...
We know what you're trying to do. We are not interested.
Why try to make yourself sound important by speaking in the "Majestic Plural" all the time.
The last 3 post in this thread look like a panic attack to stop the truth from being told
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Peace be upon you,
I find it amusing that of the responses that were given to the original question, no one gave the answer he was hoping. So he then had to tekll us to CONCENTRATE on the verse he hoped we would give. No response was given to the verses given in response to the original question.
Furthermore, by what stretch of the imagination can we say that "Isa, son of Marium" is being compared to "The God"? The comparison is isa, son of Marium" to "Adam". Both are created. All of creation is created, there is none but the One God, all else is illusion.
Did I miss something?
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Why try to make yourself sound important by speaking in the "Majestic Plural" all the time.
....Because I know I'm not alone when voicing the concern. I don't need to do multiple personalities like you.
The key word is 'khalaq', 'create'. 359 say that Isa was created just like Adam. Apple Pie's analysis blatantly ignores the 'khalaq'. But we know Apple Pie will ignore that because a detail like that won't prevent Apple Pie from twisting facts.
Apple Pie, albion, we know you want us to convert to Christianity.
We are not interested.
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Peace be upon you,
The only conversion that should take place is from "religion"(sects) to peacefulness(islam).
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Because I know I'm not alone when voicing the concern
Not only do you try to make yourself sound important by speaking in the "Majestic Plural" like God does, but you also try to say you are also "All Knowing" like God is too.. interesting!!!!... Are you sure your not God?
we know you want us to convert to Christianity.
Wait !!.. I take that back, God isnt paranoid so you cant be him !!
But your still speak in the Majestic Plural, so you must be just trying to make yourself sound important for some reason.
LOL!! And what is so bizzare is
No!!. what is bizarre is a two horned creature called Dhulqarnain... And how Muhammad made up that character from one on Daniels Dreams, in the Book of Daniel.
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Peace be upon you ,
No!!?. what is bizarre is a two horned creature called Dhulqarnain... And how Muhammad made up that character from one on Daniels Dreams, in the Book of Daniel.
Hmmm kind of like the virgin birth story that was written before biblical times. Seems you "religionists" are only comfortable going back to the bible, but never before it, yet want to scream "copycat" all the time.
If you stopped being a SECTARIAN and joined in the journey towqards peacefulness, then ALL of these stories would bring you to a common agreement.
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... And how Muhammad made up that character from one on Daniels Dreams, in the Book of Daniel.
1-) Do you think Mohammad copied or made up? Between you and Apple Pie decide your position...
2-) Does the fact that you see similarities with the Bible form your conclusion that Mohammad took this from the Book of Daniel? Can you somehow prove your assertion since you seem so confident it is the absolute truth. Come on we want proofs.
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Apple Pie,
Amazingly?not only does the classic Arabic tell us that Jesus is the equivalent or similitude ?Mathalu? of ?allah??but we are also told that Jesus is present with ?allah??as ?allah? is not alone?!
Your premise relating to the logical comparison is wrong and you know it!
The logical construct of the verse is not what you allude to
It is a comparison of eesa to adam in the sight of GOD. Your definitions do not cover the logical construct of the verse and it is clearly wrong.
3.59?
The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be". And he was.
Jesus was told "be" then he was. Your explanation ignores the second part of the verse too which contradicts you.
It is interesting to note that we did not see your rendering of this verse, why would this be I wonder?
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Salaam,
Thats another way of saying you can't debate at a rational level...
There was no debate in the first place. At least your friend made it seem that way. Is that a Christian thing, to fake like you are doing something, even in a sincere manner, when they are not? Well anyways, there was no debate, all I did was answer a question and your friend decides 'Hah, I've got you, it really says this'. Too bad your friend has poor grammar skills.
Are you actually friends? I do not think your denial of Jesus being the All-Mighty god would sit well with him. Maybe you're even the anti-Christ in his eyes.
Joe
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Seems you "religionists" are only comfortable going back to the bible, but never before it, yet want to scream "copycat" all the time.
Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say ?The guidance is God?s guidance.? And if you follow their wishes after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against God.
And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous.
And they said ?Be Jews or Nazarenes so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of those who set up partners.?
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The only conversion that should take place is from "religion"(sects) to peacefulness(islam).
There is only ONE Prince Of Peace and its definately not Muhammad
When thy Lord inspired the angels I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. THEN SMITE THE NECKS AND SMITE OF THEM EACH FINGER.
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level. So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them
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Wow. Is it me having a de ja vu or do we have a cheap replacement for pricesszed. I hope ApplePie is more rational than this one.
The admins are being lenient. I don't mind Apple Pie, but I would really love to have albion kicked out like Omar Bakri off Britain.
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Greetings All,
I appreciate all of the replies.
It is interesting that not a single individual attempted to refute the low-hanging fruit of sura 81?in which Jesus is demonstrated to be co-equal with the ?allah? of the Koran.
It is completely understandable, as the Koran most obviously portrays Jesus as God Almighty?same as the Holy Bible from which it borrows itself from.
Islam may not agree with these statements?however, the Koran sure does?
Sura 81 is a thread, in and of, itself?
Continuing with 3.59?
3.59 consists of two separate comparisons.
The first of these compares Jesus to ?allah?.
As demonstrated in the previous post, the first portion of 3.59 tells us that Jesus is the similitude/equivalent of ?allah?, and that Jesus is ?inda?, i.e. with ?allah?.
Let?s now dig a little deeper into this ayah?
Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu
Observe the first particle?
= ?inna?
?inna? definition
One of the particles which annul the quality of the inchoative it is a corroborative particle, corroborating the predicate; governing the subject in the accusative case and the predicate in the nominative case; and may generally be rendered by verily, or certainly, or the like; exactly agreeing with the Greek ?hoti? #G3754, as used in Luke 7.16 and in many other passages in the New Testament;
Luk 716 And1161 there came a fear5401, 2983 on all537 and2532 they glorified1392 God,2316 saying,3004 That3754 a great3173 prophet4396 is risen up1453 among1722 us;2254 and,2532 That3754 God2316 hath visited1980 his848 people.2992
(Observe that this example given by Lane proclaims Jesus as God)
though it often seems to be nothing more than a sign of inception, which can hardly be rendered at all in English; unless in pronunciation, by laying stress upon the predicate, or upon the copula. It must be used when it occurs inceptively, having nothing before it upon which is syntactically dependent, with respect to the wording or meaning.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 103 - 111
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 35Thus, this is what we are told from the very start of this ayah
? ?Inna? corroborates i.e. confirms; makes more certain; supports with evidence or authority the predicate (which expresses what is said of the subject, i.e. Jesus)
? It is a sign of inception i.e. origin
? Coupling this with ?mathalu? and ?inda? tells us quite clearly that the origin of Jesus has always been with ?allah?.
Next?
Look at the fascinating classic Arabic definition for Jesus?
= ?eesa?
?eesa? definition
Plural. Proper name; Jesus. Having a white color inclining towards black or reddish white, or white. Whiteness mixed with somewhat of red hue; whiteness in which is a mixture of clearness with slight darkness; or yellowish whiteness.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, p. 2210
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 396 ? 398Rounding-out the first comparison of 3.59?
? Jesus is compared and confirmed as a co-equal with ?allah?
? Jesus has always existed with ?allah?
? Jesus was not created
? Jesus is a plural noun, hence?He is more than one?an obvious clue to His Triune nature
? The name Jesus means ?whiteness mixed with somewhat of a red hue??an obvious clue to Him being the sacrificial Lamb?This covers the first part and comparison of 3.59.
Are there any questions before we look at the second comparison and half of this ayah??
Thanks?
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SaLaM AP
I answered your initial question. Its only fair you answer mine now. I see you are really good at analysing verses. Will you please analyse this verse with the same scrutiny as with the above verse. The verse is
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with God, then He will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
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I answered your initial question.
Why do we need to explain a verse that the quran itself contradicts in other verses
"Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right shall have nothing to fear or regret"
"Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures),and the Christians and tha Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"
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SaLaM AP
I answered your initial question. Its only fair you answer mine now. I see you are really good at analysing verses. Will you please analyse this verse with the same scrutiny as with the above verse. The verse is
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with God, then He will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
Let?s take a look at this ayah in context?
Those who said "That Allah, He is the Messiah Mary's son," had disbelieved, and the Messiah, said "You, Israel's sons and daughters, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, that he who shares/makes partners with Allah, so He had forbidden on him the Paradise, and his shelter/refuge (is) the fire, and (there are) no victoriors/saviors to the unjust/oppressors." (572)
Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha huwa almaseehu ibnu maryama waqala almaseehu ya banee isra-eela oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakum innahu man yushrik biAllahi faqad harrama Allahu AAalayhi aljannata wama/wahu alnnaru wama lilththalimeena min ansarin
Those who said "That Allah (is) third (of) three." had disbelieved, and (there is) no Allah except from one Allah, and if they do not end/stop from what they say, a painful torture will touch those who disbelieved from them. (573)
Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha thalithu thalathatin wama min ilahin illa ilahun wahidun wa-in lam yantahoo AAamma yaqooloona layamassanna allatheena kafaroo minhum AAathabun aleemun
So do they not repent to Allah, and they ask Him for forgiveness, and Allah (is) forgiving, merciful. (574)
Afala yatooboona ila Allahi wayastaghfiroonahu waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun
The Messiah Mary's son is not except a messenger, the messengers had past/expired from before Him, and his mother (was) always very truthful, they were eating the food; look/see how We clarify/explain to them the signs/evidences, then look/see where they be turned away . (575)
Ma almaseehu ibnu maryama illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu waommuhu siddeeqatun kana ya/kulani alttaAAama onthur kayfa nubayyinu lahumu al-ayati thumma onthur anna yu/fakoona
Summary of 572-75
- People had disbelieved that God (god in the case of the Koran) is the Messiah (Jesus)
- Jesus told the people to worship God, his Lord and theirs
- Jesus tells them not to share partners with God
- The disbeliveers said that God is a third of three
- There is only one God
- Jesus is a messenger
Conclusion
- Muslims are those people that disbelieved that God is the Messiah (Jesus)
- Jesus tells people to worship God (the Father), as stated in the NT
- Jesus tells them not to share God, as stated in the NT
- Disbelievers say that God is a Third of Three, confirming what the Holy Trinity is not
- There is only ONE God, as dictated by the Holy Bible
- Jesus was sent by God.
Reference
(Joh 173) And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. -
SaLaM Albion and AP
Why do you think the verses are contradicting the verse i posted?
"Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right shall have nothing to fear or regret"
"Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures),and the Christians and tha Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"
The summary of the verse 5.72 - 5.75 is as followed.
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "Allah is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with Allah, then He will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "Allah is a trinity!" There is no Allah but One Allah. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.
Would they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.
Summary AND conclusion of 5.72 - 5.75
1] People who say Allah is the son of Mary are rejectors.
2] Jesus said to serve Allah
3] Jesus said who ever sets up partners with Allah will get it really bad on the day of judgement
4] Those who rant about trinity are rejectors and unless they stop ranting they are doomed to hell
5] Ask Allah for forgivness becoz Allah is so forgiving and so merciful
6] Son of mary , Jesus, was no more than a messenger.So maybe you are looking at your Bible instead of the Quran. Or maybe you were looking at the wrong verses. In any case, i have corrected your mistake, becoz i am just so nice . I would hate to believe you intentionally changed the meaning of the verse, but that would just not make sense since you are sooo good in arabic. Or perhaps it was a mistake? What say you ApplePie?