Is Swine Hallal
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PEACE, TANVEER,
When you admitted that for you and the others, lahma khinzerin means "meat of the pig", hence, the pig is haram, you destroyed your entire argument, because now you have no argument for muslims not eating the fat of swine or products made from its hooves. How do you reconcile this? Please don't reply with..."I've already answered that". State your Quranic reply briefly and coherently, thanks.
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Peace PB,
I will keep reposting until you answer.
You have difficulty understanding that when Allah says lahma khinzeerin is forbidden for mankind in 6145, that it is forbidden for Jews too, as Jews are part of mankind. The only way your twisted logic will work is if Jews are not part of mankind, and mankind verses don't apply to Jews, which is absurd. According to you then, Jews are not part of mankind but aliens ! rotfl
You also have difficulty understanding that when Allah says that the food of people of scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to the believers, that it means that whatever has been made lawful to the people of scripture according to THEIR SCRIPTURE is also lawful to the believers. If they also followed Qur'aan, then they would not be people of scripture anymore, would they ? and then there will be no difference between their food and believers food anyway. You just don't get this, and your twisted logic creates a contradiction for yourself.
You think with your twisted logic that lahma khinzeerin is not haram for Jews by focusing only on 6146 and ignoring 6145, therefore making lahma khinzeer halal for Jews, and because 55 says that food of Jews is halal for believers, you think lahma khinzeer is halal for believers too, but by saying that you create a SERIOUS contradiction with 6145 and 53, and trap yourself in a contradiction loop. You can choose to listen to our explanations, or be destined to be trapped in your self created contradiction loop by conjecturing in the word of Allah and inventing lies to Allah !
What you fail to realize is that 6146 is a continuation of 6145 because of the word "AND" at the beginning of 6146. That makes it clear that the 2 additional categories of food made haram for Jews in 6146 are IN ADDITION TO the 4 categories of food made haram for Jews in 6145 (Jews are included in mankind), and that was the punishment for the Jews for their rebellion.
6145 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or lahma khinzeerin, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6146 AND for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.So according to these 2 ayaat, the food made haram for Jews is as follows
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
ALL OF THE ABOVE WERE MADE HARAM FOR JEWS. 1-4 haram for mankind including Jews. 1-6 haram for Jews (5 and 6 haram only for Jews in addition to 1-4 as a punishment for their rebellion).
Keeping this in mind, 55 becomes very clear, and there is NO CONTRADICTION between 6145, 6146, and 55.
55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
Food of Jews (people of scripture) = everything except 1-6 mentioned above = lawful for mankind
Mankind's food = everything except 1-4 mentioned above = lawful for Jews (them) (the 5 and 6 were made lawful for them by Allah through 55)
Therefore NO CONTRADICTION. Q.E.D.
You won't answer to my 2 questions that I have been asking you over and over, because those 2 questions will expose your twisted logic immediately
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According to your twisted logic, dead meat, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah", are also halal for mankind per 55, because Allah did not make dead meat, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" haram for Jews in 6146. But then that would contradict 6145. How will you resolve this contradiction ?
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Given that Allah, in 6146, does not forbid the Jews to eat lahma khinzeerin, hence, according to your twisted logic it was lawful to them, and ayat 55 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, whatever it means, has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6145; How will you resolve this contradiction ?
PS In this post I have used the HAFS verse numbering.
I have already replied to your questions in my previous posts. Don't be lazy and rude, and read my previous posts. Because of your laziness I will give you the link to my post in which I answered your question
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52491#52491
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SaLaM PRIEST
He Has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Allah, did not make swine haram for anyone...that's the point, get it?
Once again, please put more efforts in your post roll
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Peace mmkhan,
Please look at the word "HAADOO" is that really means "JEWS"?
If so, then what is the difference between 6146 and 551?
According to Dictionary of Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar
HAADOO (prf. 3rd. p. m. plu.) Who are Judaised.
YAHOODI Jew, JudaisedSo, no difference between 6146 and 551
Peace brother Tanveer,
Unfortunately, we have to turn towards dictionaries to understand AlQuraan. But actually I am looking for any reference from AlQuraan itself for such usage. Is there any?
Regards,
MMKhan
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PB,
How do you know 560 is metaphorical, does Allah say that it is a metaphor/similitude? What is your Quranic "gauge" for determining the difference? Regardless, lahma khinzerin cannot be the flesh of pig...and that is a fact. If not, then, by all means, provide your Quranic proof.
The quranic gauge is the context it is used in al quran and 'common sense/logic'. As I have said before how humans turned into pigs is IRRELEVANT to the context of this discussion. If you keep throwing it in without even answering it yourself and/or the other questions posed repeatedly in this thread, thats revealing in and of itself.
Regardless, lahma khinzerin can be the flesh of pig...and that is a fact.
The quranic proof has been presented to you many times in this thread alone. You ignore it, you do not address it and keep on presenting the same cut and pastes...reminds me of another user...ah well.
- Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
Yes.
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position? (UNDER DISCUSSION)
Erroneous. Has been explained by my previous posts. It is what happens when one believes that lahma khinzeerin is also in 560 without checking the transliteration and/or not knowing the meaning of lahma khinzeerin. It is a repeated point which is trying to be eluded by throwing in metaphorical vs literal when that is IRRELEVANT to the context of this discussion of pig meat. Here it is yet again
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
savage_carrot wrote
Transliteration 560Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli
There unfortunately, is no lahm(meat) in 560, there is just khanazeera.
Transliteration 6145
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
There is, however, lahm in 6145 and the others...
- Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran. (UNDER DISCUSSION)
They consistently mean the same thing. Pig meat OR meat of pig.
- In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? Please post that ayat, thanks.
This has been asked too many times in the same thread with no response from you. Where is the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat "blood", "dead meat" and "that which is dedicated to other than God"?
Please post that ayat, thanks.Are the jewish people part of mankind? If al quran is for mankind then jewish people are somehow excluded? The verses for mankind forbidden the meat of pig are NUMEROUS. Please address the GLARING questions that are posed by your cut and pastes.
- If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
Allah did make the meat of pigs haram for jewish people in al quran itself They are part of mankind. Quran is the guidance to mankind. Swine meat is forbidden for mankind (inclusive of the Jewish people no matter what some might say) in al quran, so is dead meat, so is blood, so is that which is dedicated to other than God, so are all the restrictions that come in it. End of story.
For further explanation, the verse concerning what is forbidden to the jews specifically, tells us of the additional restrictions for their transgressions, in the past. As long as they believe in al quran, then they are forbidden what mankind is forbidden. Why are the Jewish people on ONE side and 'Muslims' on the OTHER? What happened to quran being the guidance to ALL mankind without EXCLUSION?
All of these apply to those that believe in the quran, to those that don't it's IRRELEVANT. They have their own path.
While replying, please have the courtesy to actually and personally reply to the points posted instead of cutting and pasting like a bot. Thank you!
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SC,
PBM How do you know 560 is metaphorical, does Allah say that it is a metaphor/similitude? What is your Quranic "gauge" for determining the difference? Regardless, lahma khinzerin cannot be the flesh of pig...and that is a fact. If not, then, by all means, provide your Quranic proof.
The quranic gauge is the context it is used in al quran and 'common sense/logic'. As I have said before how humans turned into pigs is IRRELEVANT to the context of this discussion. If you keep throwing it in without even answering it yourself and/or the other questions posed repeatedly in this thread, thats revealing in and of itself.
Common sense, if that is what you are using to justify your assertion, should also tell you that, Allah, does not use a word to mean two distinctly different things. To do so would create an obvious discrepancy. Given that khinzerin means "to see something as bad", ill seeming meat and ill seeming behavior have as a common denominator--"ill seeming/something seen as not good".
Regardless, lahma khinzerin can be the flesh of pig...and that is a fact...They consistently mean the same thing. Pig meat OR meat of pig.
Please don't confuse fact with opinion/conjecture, they are not the same thing. If your assertion can be true, then your position contradicts ayat 55 and 6146. Please explain the following
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
PRIOR to the Jews rebelling, 5 and 6 were halal for them and mankind.
Now, even after they rebelled, these 5 and 6 remained halal for mankind in general.
Now, Jesus, was allowed to make part of what was forbidden the Jews halal, however, Allah, does not tell us what he made halal, but it was either 5 or 6.
Now, given that the muslims were part of mankind, for whom these things remained halal, and ayat 55 says that muslims food is lawful to the Jews, well, 5 and 6 with the coming of Al-Quran, made 5 and 6 halal for the Jews.
Now, given that 6146 does not mention khinzerin as one of the haram foods of the Jews, swine, then, it was never made haram for the Jews by Allah. With this in mind then, ayat 55 makes their food halal to us, and given that Allah never made meat of swine haram to the Jews, then, swine is halal for muslims. I simply cannot make this any clearer. If you cannot get it now, well, then it is not for you to get.
The quranic proof has been presented to you many times in this thread alone. You ignore it, you do not address it and keep on presenting the same cut and pastes...reminds me of another user...ah well.
I'm not ignoring anything. My position is, your's and Tanveer's assertions, simply make no sense. Both of you simply cannot grasp the interplay of 5, 55, and 6146.
PBM 1. Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
Yes.
A HUGE step forward. I would love to see you prove this to muslim ummah at large. With Allah as your witness, would you eat food you knew was cooked in pig fat/lard?
Regarding khinzerin , I addressed this above.
This has been asked too many times in the same thread with no response from you. Where is the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat "blood", "dead meat" and "that which is dedicated to other than God"?
Please post that ayat, thanks. Are the jewish people part of mankind? If al quran is for mankind then jewish people are somehow excluded? The verses for mankind forbidden the meat of pig are NUMEROUS. Please address the GLARING questions that are posed by your cut and pastes.I don't know why Allah doesn't specifically name the above items as being haram for the Jews and I am not going to conjecture about it. Do you or Tanveer know? If so, please enlighten us. However, I do KNOW the following for a fact. Allah, specifically, in ayat 6146, names the category of animals which He DID make haram to the Jews, and NONE of which include the animal pig, do you agree? Allah, also makes clear, the particular PART--the fat/shahama of two specific animals--oxen and sheep. Once again, no mention of the animal pig.
PBM 5. If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
Allah did make the meat of pigs haram for jewish people in al quran itself They are part of mankind. Quran is the guidance to mankind. Swine meat is forbidden for mankind (inclusive of the Jewish people no matter what some might say) in al quran, so is dead meat, so is blood, so is that which is dedicated to other than God, so are all the restrictions that come in it. End of story.
LOL! end of story? wishful thinking D. You have yet to explain the why Allah makes no mention of the animal--pig, in the category of haram animals in ayat 6146. Until you can do this, you are only following conjecture.
For further explanation, the verse concerning what is forbidden to the jews specifically, tells us of the additional restrictions for their transgressions, in the past. As long as they believe in al quran, then they are forbidden what mankind is forbidden. Why are the Jewish people on ONE side and 'Muslims' on the OTHER? What happened to quran being the guidance to ALL mankind without EXCLUSION?
PRIOR to Al-Quran and the Messenger Jesus, what category of animals and animal parts, DO WE KNOW FOR AN ABSOLUTE QURANIC FACT, were haram for the Jews to eat?
Looking forward to your's abd Tanveer's responss. wink
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PB,
Common sense, if that is what you are using to justify your assertion, should also tell you that, Allah, does not use a word to mean two distinctly different things. To do so would create an obvious discrepancy. Given that khinzerin means "to see something as bad", ill seeming meat and ill seeming behavior have as a common denominator--"ill seeming/something seen as not good".
Its funny you should say that...ironic really, lets refresh our positions
SC Khanazeer = pig , Lahma Khinzeerin = pig meat.
PB Khinzerin = ill seeming behaviour? , Lahma Khinzeerin = ill seeming meat
It's clear when put side by side what is consistent and what isn't.
Also clear that metaphors are gauged by CONTEXT and NOT the LITERAL words used...if the word used Khinzerin literally means ill seeming behaviour, then we are not supposed to be eating the meat of the ill seeming behaviour in 6145. Way to go consistency yeah!
Please don't confuse fact with opinion/conjecture, they are not the same thing. If your assertion can be true, then your position contradicts ayat 55 and 6146. Please explain the following
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
PRIOR to the Jews rebelling, 5 and 6 were halal for them and mankind.
Now, even after they rebelled, these 5 and 6 remained halal for mankind in general.
Now, Jesus, was allowed to make part of what was forbidden the Jews halal, however, Allah, does not tell us what he made halal, but it was either 5 or 6.
Now, given that the muslims were part of mankind, for whom these things remained halal, and ayat 55 says that muslims food is lawful to the Jews, well, 5 and 6 with the coming of Al-Quran, made 5 and 6 halal for the Jews.
Now, given that 6146 does not mention khinzerin as one of the haram foods of the Jews, swine, then, it was never made haram for the Jews by Allah. With this in mind then, ayat 55 makes their food halal to us, and given that Allah never made meat of swine haram to the Jews, then, swine is halal for muslims. I simply cannot make this any clearer. If you cannot get it now, well, then it is not for you to get.
Please don't confuse fact with opinion/conjecture, they are not the same thing. Praise the God for not having such convoluted explanations/opinion/conjecture in the quran, as are being proffered outside of it, in regards to pig meat being halal...whereas ALL the so called extremely weak discrepancies are already answered, yet we have the SAME cut and paste again...suffices to show who is reading and who isn't.
Please post the ayat where jesus made certain foodstuff lawful for the jewish people first before assumptions are made...Thanks!
I'm not ignoring anything. My position is, your's and Tanveer's assertions, simply make no sense. Both of you simply cannot grasp the interplay of 5, 55, and 6146.
That is completely subjective opinion...
PBM 1. Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
Quote
Yes.A HUGE step forward. I would love to see you prove this to muslim ummah at large. With Allah as your witness, would you eat food you knew was cooked in pig fat/lard?
What a hoot! I can't believe you wrote that! This coming from someone who wants the whole PIG to be HALAL...Go prove that to the muslim ummah at large!! And whats with the hypothetical questions? Stay on topic, this adds nothing to the discussion.
I don't know why Allah doesn't specifically name the above items as being haram for the Jews and I am not going to conjecture about it.
Lordy, yet you can drag one item out from a list of four and say thats the one I will conjecture about?
However, I do KNOW the following for a fact. Allah, specifically, in ayat 6146, names the category of animals which He DID make haram to the Jews,
In addition to the preceding verse with the logical connector AND...why do you forget that?
LOL! end of story? wishful thinking . You have yet to explain the why Allah makes no mention of the animal--pig, in the category of haram animals in ayat 6146. Until you can do this, you are only following conjecture.
You have yet to explain why you pick one item out of a list of four, disregard AND, consider the jews to be outside mankind when the guidance in the quran is for ALL mankind.
PRIOR to Al-Quran and the Messenger Jesus, what category of animals and animal parts, DO WE KNOW FOR AN ABSOLUTE QURANIC FACT, were haram for the Jews to eat?
In al quran we KNOW FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT what was/is forbidden to mankind and what was additonally forbidden for the jewish people in the past.
edited to add a not and italics
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SaLaM PRIEST
Tell me who God is forbidding the meat of pig here
He Has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Is it -
a] Muslims
b] Batman
c] Mankind
d] Flipper the dolphine
e] Jews
f] Superman -
Peace Jaxal,
In answer to your question...
Tell me who God is forbidding the meat of pig here
2172. O you who believe, eat of the good things We have provided for you, and be thankful to God; if it is Him you serve.
2173. He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful. -
Peace all,
^^Its a good point that i've highlighted in my post here
All of these apply to those that believe in the quran, to those that don't it's IRRELEVANT. They have their own path.
The people who have these restrictions are those who believe in al quran.
To those that don't believe in it, what does it matter what the quran says? To those that don't have al quran...how does it apply? It doesn't. So if you have access to the reading, you believe in it...those restrictions apply. The jewish people will not be reading the quran for their restrictions unless they believe in it, that makes them believers...and what applies to the believers, applies to the believers.
So it follows that ALL food is lawful to believers EXCEPT that which is forbidden to the believers in the quran. The quran tells us what is EXPLICITLY forbidden to believers 2173, 53 and others.
edited to add last para
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SaLaM zenje
I know brother. The question was aimed at PRIEST. He admitted that the Quran came down for everyone. He admitted that All mankind should follow the Quran. But for some reason, he has a problem that Quran didnt mention jews while forbidding the meat of pig. For some reason , he is excluding jews from mankind.
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.In answer to your question...
Tell me who God is forbidding the meat of pig here
2172. O you who believe, eat of the good things We have provided for you, and be thankful to God; if it is Him you serve.
2173. He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.Does this mean Muslims can kill and eat Mammals like Dolphins and Whales, and primates like apes, chimps and monkeys?
All these are forbiden under the Food Laws of Christians and Jews for obvious moral reasons
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SC,
PBM Common sense, if that is what you are using to justify your assertion, should also tell you that, Allah, does not use a word to mean two distinctly different things. To do so would create an obvious discrepancy. Given that khinzerin means "to see something as bad", ill seeming meat and ill seeming behavior have as a common denominator--"ill seeming/something seen as not good".
Its funny you should say that...ironic really, lets refresh our positions
SC Khanazeer = pig , Lahma Khinzeerin = pig meat.
PB Khinzerin = ill seeming behaviour? , Lahma Khinzeerin = ill seeming meat
It's clear when put side by side what is consistent and what isn't. Also clear that metaphors are gauged by CONTEXT and NOT the LITERAL words used...if the word used Khinzerin literally means ill seeming behaviour, then we are not supposed to be eating the meat of the ill seeming behaviour in 6145. Way to go consistency yeah!
Main Entry KHANIZA compound word comprised of khinz-bad and ara- I see it bad; to stink; to be evil; to be bad; dirty; piggy; pig/swine/hog; proud; greedy; stubborn, obstinate, stupidly perverse. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 166
The above definition establishes that I am being consistent. The common denominator in my position is that, khinzerin="ill seming". Now, "ill-seming", can be apply to many things and not create a discrepancy. Your wanting to make khinzerin a literal animal on one hand, and a similitude on the other, is not only being inconsistent, but oppositional to Allah and His Quran. If your position is accepted, then, Al-Quran can be accused of having a discrepancy. Now, while khinzer is the name for pig in the Arabic language, one must be certain that that is how Allah is using it in His Quran. You continue to support that khinzerin=the animal pig, because you cannot intellectually grasp the interplay between ayats 53, 55, and 6146, or, maybe you do, but denial is preferrable to conceding this point/argument to me...which is it? wink
PBM Please don't confuse fact with opinion/conjecture, they are not the same thing. If your assertion can be true, then your position contradicts ayat 55 and 6146. Please explain the following
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
PRIOR to the Jews rebelling, 5 and 6 were halal for them and mankind.
Now, even after they rebelled, these 5 and 6 remained halal for mankind in general.
Now, Jesus, was allowed to make part of what was forbidden the Jews halal, however, Allah, does not tell us what he made halal, but it was either 5 or 6.
Now, given that the muslims were part of mankind, for whom these things remained halal, and ayat 55 says that muslims food is lawful to the Jews, well, 5 and 6 with the coming of Al-Quran, made 5 and 6 halal for the Jews.
Now, given that 6146 does not mention khinzerin as one of the haram foods of the Jews, swine, then, it was never made haram for the Jews by Allah. With this in mind then, ayat 55 makes their food halal to us, and given that Allah never made meat of swine haram to the Jews, then, swine is halal for muslims. I simply cannot make this any clearer. If you cannot get it now, well, then it is not for you to get.
Please don't confuse fact with opinion/conjecture, they are not the same thing. Praise the God for not having such convoluted explanations/opinion/conjecture in the quran, as are being proffered outside of it, in regards to pig meat being halal...whereas ALL the so called extremely weak discrepancies are already answered, yet we have the SAME cut and paste again...suffices to show who is reading and who isn't.
Yes, Al-Quran is devoid of convoluted explanations and, while mine are not as well, I do dislike having to do so much explaining. The only reason why I've had to explain at length as I have, is because you have not been able to intellectually connect the dots i.e. ayats 53, 55, and 6146, to this point.
Please post the ayat where jesus made certain foodstuff lawful for the jewish people first before assumptions are made...Thanks!
345 When the angels said O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
346 And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
347 She said My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
348 And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.
349 And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
350And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
PBM I'm not ignoring anything. My position is, your's and Tanveer's assertions, simply make no sense. Both of you simply cannot grasp the interplay of 5, 55, and 6146.
That is completely subjective opinion...
Actually...it's not. You're a smart girl and down the road this will eventually make sense to you, insha-Allah.
PBM 1. Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
Quote Yes.
A HUGE step forward. I would love to see you prove this to muslim ummah at large. With Allah as your witness, would you eat food you knew was cooked in pig fat/lard?
What a hoot! I can't believe you wrote that! This coming from someone who wants the whole PIG to be HALAL...Go prove that to the muslim ummah at large!! And whats with the hypothetical questions? Stay on topic, this adds nothing to the discussion.
I can prove this to ummah at large, that is not the problem. The problem, as you and Tanveer are illustrative of for the moment, is denial...the rejection of what has been proven.
PBM I don't know why Allah doesn't specifically name the above items as being haram for the Jews and I am not going to conjecture about it.
Lordy, yet you can drag one item out from a list of four and say thats the one I will conjecture about?
Hmmm...what, exactly, is my conjecture?
PBM However, I do KNOW the following for a fact. Allah, specifically, in ayat 6146, names the category of animals which He DID make haram to the Jews.
In addition to the preceding verse with the logical connector AND...why do you forget that?
The "and" does not detract from my above statement, now does it? wink
PBM LOL! end of story? wishful thinking . You have yet to explain the why Allah makes no mention of the animal--pig, in the category of haram animals in ayat 6146. Until you can do this, you are only following conjecture.
You have yet to explain why you pick one item out of a list of four, disregard AND, consider the jews to be outside mankind when the guidance in the quran is for ALL mankind.
My assertion is very plain, that being, Allah, specifically, in ayat 6146, names the category of animals which He made haram to the Jews and, thus far, despite your blustering, you have not denied nor disproven this fact...now have you? I've proven my assertion that, Allah, never names the pig as haram for the Jews to eat. Now, why he didn't do something else, well, that is for you to figure out.
PBM PRIOR to Al-Quran and the Messenger Jesus, what category of animals and animal parts, DO WE KNOW FOR AN ABSOLUTE QURANIC FACT, were haram for the Jews to eat?
In al quran we KNOW FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT what was/is forbidden to mankind and what was additonally forbidden for the jewish people in the past.
Well, before Al-Quran was revealed, as ayat 6146 and 350 indicate, where does Allah make the pig haram for the Jews to eat? You have yet to provide this evidence and it is critical to your position. Without this evidence, you are only conjecturing.
Waiting with bated breath for your evidence.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
SaLaM zenje
I know brother. The question was aimed at PRIEST. He admitted that the Quran came down for everyone. He admitted that All mankind should follow the Quran. But for some reason, he has a problem that Quran didnt mention jews while forbidding the meat of pig. For some reason , he is excluding jews from mankind.
I'm not all excluding the Jews from mankind at all. My argument is...before the coming of Al-Quran, the Jews were never forbidden to eat swine. In ayats 6146 and 350, Allah tells us this.
6146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
350 And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
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Salaams PRIEST_BOKMEI,
Regarding khanzeer, I read your posts on MWU and the ongoing debate here. Very enlightning, but one question comes in mind, and that is
I can understand khanzeer to mean bad, rotten, ill-seeming, etc., contextually in verses 2173, 53, 6145 and 16115 but how do you understand verse 560 to mean the same, where khanzeer is used? Your thoughtful insight will be helpful.
Take care and GOD bless.
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PEACE, DANISH,
Glad you dropped in. D
Regarding khanzeer, I read your posts on MWU and the ongoing debate here. Very enlightning, but one question comes in mind, and that is
I can understand khanzeer to mean bad, rotten, ill-seeming, etc., contextually in verses 2173, 53, 6145 and 16115 but how do you understand verse 560 to mean the same, where khanzeer is used? Your thoughtful insight will be helpful.
Take care and GOD bless.
560 Say "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah. those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
560 Qul hal onabbiokum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata walkhanazeera waAAabada attaghooti olaika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawai assabeel.
Main Entry KHANIZA compound word comprised of khinz-bad and ara- I see it bad; to stink; to be evil; to be bad; dirty; piggy; pig/swine/hog; proud; greedy; stubborn, obstinate, stupidly perverse. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 166
First, we can conclude that, Allah, really didn't transform human beings into the animals "apes" and "pigs", His Laws simply do not work like that. Now, given that khaniza is defined both as an animal and something ill-seeming, the next thing we must conclude is...which definition is Allah using in Al-Quran? As you know, it cannot be both, hence, the use of any term must be used in consistent fashion throughout Al-Quran, otherwise, a discrepancy would occur. As I said to SC and Tanveer, something "ill-seeming", can be applied to food, as well as, human conduct/speech. In ayat 560, khaniza is used to describe something ill-seeming --human conduct. The people's behavior being discussed in ayat 560, was obviously immoral, hence, the righteous, could easily see their behavior as ill-seeming/immoral/khaniza.
Hope this helped. Looking forward to your insights as well.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
Will you plz answer the question?
I've answered your question.
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SaLaM PB
I will be more specific. Who is God forbidding from eating pigs meat in the following verse
He Has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
So, in the above verse, who is God forbidding ?
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
In the thread Pork & Logic, it has been conclusively shown according to Qur'aanic context, arabic language, grammar, and logic, that lahma khinzeerin as used in 6145 means meat of pig.
Following is the link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2074&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
In 6145, Allah clearly makes meat of pig, dead animals, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" HARAM FOR JEWS (that ayat is for mankind and mankind includes Jews).
WHY DO YOU KEEP IGNORING 6145 ???
6145 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6146 AND for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.The "AND" at the beginning of 6146 shows that both 6145 and 6146 are connected and 6146 is a CONTINUATION of 6145. In 6145 Allah tells explicitly what things are haram for all mankind, including Jews, and in 6146 He tells us what things are ADDITIONALLY haram for Jews only.
SO ACCORDING TO THE 2 AYAAT, THE LIST OF HARAM FOOD FOR JEWS IS AS FOLLOWS
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
ALL OF THE ABOVE WERE MADE HARAM FOR JEWS.
1-4 haram for mankind including Jews.
1-6 haram for Jews (5 and 6 haram only for Jews in addition to 1-4 as a punishment for their rebellion).Keeping this in mind, 55 becomes very clear, and there is NO CONTRADICTION between 6145, 6146, and 55.
55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
Food of Jews (people of scripture) = everything except 1-6 mentioned above = lawful for mankind
Mankind's food = everything except 1-4 mentioned above = lawful for Jews (the 5 and 6 were made lawful for them by Allah through 55)
Therefore NO CONTRADICTION. Q.E.D.
NOW PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS
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Given that 6145 lists food made haram for mankind, and that mankind includes Jews, Why do you keep ignoring what Allah EXPLICITLY makes forbidden for Jews in 6145 ?
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The "AND" at the beginning of 6146 clearly shows that 6146 is a CONTINUATION of 6145, so you cannot isolate 6146 from 6145. Why do you keep ignoring the "AND" at the beginning of 6146 and keep isolating 6146 from 6145 ?
Why do you keep rejecting parts of the word of Allah (e.g. 6145) ?
1338 And those to whom We have previously given the Scripture rejoice at what has been sent down to you, but there are some of the groups that reject parts of it.
- Given that Allah, in 6146, does not forbid the Jews to eat dead meat, blood, lahma khinzeerin, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah", hence, according to your twisted logic it was lawful to them, and ayat 55 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, dead meat, blood, lahma khinzeerin, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah", then has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6145 where Allah has clearly made dead meat, blood, lahma khinzeerin and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" HARAM FOR MANKIND, WHICH INCLUDES JEWS. How will you explain that ?
You won't answer my questions that I have been asking you over and over, because these questions will expose your twisted logic immediately.
Please stop ignoring 6145 WHERE ALLAH HAS CLEARLY FORBIDDEN LAHMA KHINZEERIN TO JEWS, and stop ignoring the "AND" at the beginning of 6146, clearly showing that 6146 is a CONTINUATION OF 6145, so both 6145 and 6146 have to be considered TOGETHER, and not in isolation.