Monistic Panentheism

yfn123

Peace Tay,

I am going to take a long break from FreeMinds Forum. I'll reply to your post when I get back.

Anwar Azim

Peace Anwar,

You stated

The CPU is likened to the brain. I can hardly see how the CPU is likened to the mind.

As Neo stated, they are one and the same.

8< 8< 8< snip snip snip >8 <8 <8

Tay

Tay

Peace Nadia,

also even if it happens then, could it just be something that was given to you because it was the right time as opposed to something that came solely out of your own efforts?

I suppose. Seems a bit random but I wouldn't rule it out. I saw "the Skeleton Key" the other night, and one line from the movie that stuck with me..."It can only happen if you believe". Perhaps we all have these experiences and just give them different names, or perhaps only those that believe can truly feel the effects of the inspirations/intuitions. And perhaps those that believe can work on catalyzing these inspirations through their own efforts. I'm beginning to think this is possible, from my own experiences.

does that mean that there was nothing that made that particular spider that particular spider (indv entity)? Thus all spiders are the same, thus everything is the same?

I've been chewing on this for a few days and, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure. This touches on the rest of your replies so I'll run with it from here...

On the one hand, I see and experience the "Oneness". On the other, I see and experience the indivuality. I find myself asking, "Is it the mind that tricks us into thinking we are seperate entities? Is this the true essence of the ego, of Iblis?? Afterall, it was Iblis that seperated from the path. But of course, seperation cannot happen unless God allows the seperation, or better yet, unless God decides on a seperation. But then again, if God is Omnipresent, then can seperation ever even happen?

This is the mystery of all mysteries.

God is everywhere.
I am here.
God is here.

Is there seperation?
Is there individuality?

I don't know, but it seems to me that God's omnipresence and our individuality are at odds.

What are your thoughts?

Peace,
Tay

Tay

Peace Anwar,

A break is always good. Enjoy yourself and take your time.

Peace,
Tay

savage_carrot

Peace Tay,

I suppose. Seems a bit random but I wouldn't rule it out. I saw "the Skeleton Key" the other night, and one line from the movie that stuck with me..."It can only happen if you believe". Perhaps we all have these experiences and just give them different names, or perhaps only those that believe can truly feel the effects of the inspirations/intuitions. And perhaps those that believe can work on catalyzing these inspirations through their own efforts. I'm beginning to think this is possible, from my own experiences.

It could possible...but I would also say what you are targeting and how would/could be a factor...

On the one hand, I see and experience the "Oneness". On the other, I see and experience the indivuality. I find myself asking, "Is it the mind that tricks us into thinking we are seperate entities? Is this the true essence of the ego, of Iblis?? Afterall, it was Iblis that seperated from the path. But of course, seperation cannot happen unless God allows the seperation, or better yet, unless God decides on a seperation. But then again, if God is Omnipresent, then can seperation ever even happen?

This is the mystery of all mysteries.

God is everywhere.
I am here.
God is here.

Is there seperation?
Is there individuality?

I don't know, but it seems to me that God's omnipresence and our individuality are at odds.

I would tend to disagree on the ego bit, because being an individual doesn't mean you are following your ego. You could have an opinion and it doesn't necessarily follow that it is egoistical, or rebellious. Tom could think a certain way and Bill could think a certain way, why do we have to be the same for there to be no seperation? There is unity in diversity as you said as well (don't remember which post now). I think that our individuality is in perfect harmony with God, think a.i...it's created, individual yet seperate? Thoughts?

Nadia

edit sp corr

neo

God is everywhere.
I am here.
God is here.

Is there seperation?
Is there individuality?

God can't be one with humans; humans can't be a part of god. However, god's intellect can be ever-present over us - but that's distinguished from god physically being 'everywhere'. So yes, there is individuality.

Tay

Peace Nadia, Neo,

Nadia, you stated

I would tend to disagree on the ego bit, because being an individual doesn't mean you are following your ego. You could have an opinion and it doesn't necessarily follow that it is egoistical, or rebellious.

I'm not speaking of ego as rebellious nature or in any negative sense, ie, pride. Think more in terms of

The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ego

We are told in the Qur'an that Iblis split from the path. Iblis is the only character beside mankind mentioned as not being in perfect harmony with God. Everything else submits. Do you see the connection?

Tom could think a certain way and Bill could think a certain way, why do we have to be the same for there to be no seperation?

Thinking is exactly the point. What we think does not define us, it only defines the sum total of experiences.

There is unity in diversity as you said as well

Of course. And I still believe that, as humanity, we are one in our diversity. But what I'm grasping at right now is beyond the effects of the diverse environments. What I'm grasping at is what lies under the consciousness that experiences the diversity. I'm trying to understand that being that remains when the mind stops talking, and reflecting, and projecting, etc. That silent entity that simply observes without judgement, that listens and feels and empathizes without word or mental construct, is the real me. The mind is just a product of it's environment. All we can do is direct the mind, but who is doing the directing?

Neo, you stated

God can't be one with humans; humans can't be a part of god.

Why not? The Qur'an tells us that God is closer than the jugular vein, and the jugular vein is an internal part of the human anatomy. What could be closer than the internal human anatomy?

However, god's intellect can be ever-present over us - but that's distinguished from god physically being 'everywhere'.

What, exactly, is the difference?

Peace,
Tay

neo

Why not? The Qur'an tells us that God is closer than the jugular vein, and the jugular vein is an internal part of the human anatomy. What could be closer than the internal human anatomy?

I don't think that verse was meant to be taken literally because that would mean there's a discreet distance between the 'god' that is apparently within us and our 'minds'. A more consistent way of interpreting that verse would be to mean god's intellect is omnipresent ('the all seeing eye') since we are god's creation.

However, god's intellect can be ever-present over us - but that's distinguished from god physically being 'everywhere'.

What, exactly, is the difference?

Peace,
Tay

Intellect is not tangible, however god being physically present is tangible (meaning its consequences can effectively be measured...). Our universe is tangible (i.e. detectable through our senses) and god is defined as the intangible (I'm pretty sure the Qu'ran explicitely states that god is beyond our senses) thus there's a direct incoherency between the universe we know and god's attributes.

Tay

Peace Neo,

you stated

I don't think that verse was meant to be taken literally because that would mean there's a discreet distance between the 'god' that is apparently within us and our 'minds'.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a distance within us. Please elaborate.

Intellect is not tangible, however god being physically present is tangible (meaning its consequences can effectively be measured...). Our universe is tangible (i.e. detectable through our senses) and god is defined as the intangible (I'm pretty sure the Qu'ran explicitely states that god is beyond our senses) thus there's a direct incoherency between the universe we know and god's attributes.

As you know, the closer we look at the tangible, the less tangible anything really is. Certainly, God is beyond our thought processes. But I still don't see this as an answer to the problem of me being "here" and God being "here".

The problem comes in understanding what "here" really is. I am amidst a field of atoms that are comprised of nearly 100% space, or nothing. Yet I have self awareness amidst this nothing. So what seperates me from the nothing?

Peace,
Tay

neo

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a distance within us. Please elaborate.

If you interpret it literally, the statement "closer than the jugular vein" sets up a locale for the 'closeness' of god right? It's closer than the left ventricle, it's closer than our vocal chords, it's closer than the jugular vein however it's not closer than, say, the frontal lobe of the brain. For example, if I say "I'm closer than two blocks from where you live" it mplies I live somewhere between you and two blocks; meaing the distance is greater than 0 but less than 2. Thus there's a discreet distance between 'god' and 'us', if the statement was interpreted literally.

As you know, the closer we look at the tangible, the less tangible anything really is. Certainly, God is beyond our thought processes. But I still don't see this as an answer to the problem of me being "here" and God being "here".

The problem comes in understanding what "here" really is. I am amidst a field of atoms that are comprised of nearly 100% space, or nothing. Yet I have self awareness amidst this nothing. So what seperates me from the nothing?

Peace,
Tay

I think saying 'nearly 100% space' is a bit misleading since it isn't. It's true there's a lot of 'space' relative to the number of particles within an atom, but it's not 100%. Reality as we exerience it is still tangible (as is the jugular vein ); it can be seen, heard, felt, and smelt. God is not tangible and god is inpenetrable to our senses. Also, if god was 'with us' then it would imply god's attributes would be reduced to the finite and it would no longer be 'god'. If you assume the contrary, which is 'we transcend the tangible reality and live in gods realm' - you'll have to explain how the universe, which is bound by time, can reside inside eternity where time doesn't exist. And then you'll have to explain how infinite can be divisible and broken up into discreet quantities. Not to mention that it would mean we are all 'gods'.

Tay

Peace Neo,

If you interpret it literally, the statement "closer than the jugular vein" sets up a locale for the 'closeness' of god right? It's closer than the left ventricle, it's closer than our vocal chords, it's closer than the jugular vein however it's not closer than, say, the frontal lobe of the brain.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. You've taken one view and applied it as universal. The way I see it, the jugular vein is within. God is closer to us than the jugular vein, or, God is closer to us than the body part that is within. If God is closer than that which is within, then something else is being demostrated here. This does not set up a locale, but in fact, demonstrates the transcendance of any possible locale we can fathom in tangible terms. I'm not saying that my view is the right view, just that it is a possibility that happens to work.

I think saying 'nearly 100% space' is a bit misleading since it isn't. It's true there's a lot of 'space' relative to the number of particles within an atom, but it's not 100%.

What is the statistic you refer to by saying "a lot of space", if it's not nearly 100%?

Reality as we exerience it is still tangible (as is the jugular vein ); it can be seen, heard, felt, and smelt.

and tasted wink
but that doesn't mean it's really there. All perception only takes place in the mind. Green to me may not look the same as green to you, though we both may like green. We'll never know if it's perceived the same way because the only place the perception exists is in the mind.

God is not tangible and god is inpenetrable to our senses. Also, if god was 'with us' then it would imply god's attributes would be reduced to the finite and it would no longer be 'god'.

What is finite? Time and space? These are illusions. They do not exist. The only thing that exists is thought/consciousness/awareness. Everything else is just theory... more thought.

Just because God seems beyond our physical senses does not mean we are not immersed in God's energy.

If you assume the contrary, which is 'we transcend the tangible reality and live in gods realm' - you'll have to explain how the universe, which is bound by time, can reside inside eternity where time doesn't exist.

I don't make that assumption. My assumption is only that there is one possible reality and we are swimming in it. Time does not exist, nor does space. It's always "Now" and I'm always "here".

Peace,
Tay