THEFT PUNISHMENT

jonny_k

So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!

salam .
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

Khi- Salam. have to clarify this even if it's after a long time now. Those verses you stated dont have any mathematical relation as is the case of the verse 538 and 1231 the sum of both which is 43 and 19 verses after 1231 the word 'cut' is mentioned again in relation with the women cutting their hands. So it is this relation which gives the answer. GOD Bless!

Fahad1

So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!

salam .
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

Khi- Salam. have to clarify this even if it's after a long time now. Those verses you stated dont have any mathematical relation as is the case of the verse 538 and 1231 the sum of both which is 43 and 19 verses after 1231 the word 'cut' is mentioned again in relation with the women cutting their hands. So it is this relation which gives the answer. GOD Bless!

salam dear bro khizar .
i dont believe that the koran depends on "mathematical relation"s to be explained . the koran is fully detailed .

take care .

salam.
fahad.

marie

Salam Fahad, all,

In the light of the Reading, jazaan/reward doesn't imply systematically a physical punishment

jazaa can be reward,recompense,requital,punishment

Agree, but according the context reward,recompense fit better

ok . recompense . and the recompense/reward is to amputate the hands.

You cannot be are affirmative, my question is do you make the best reading of this verse (3918 )?
The God knows best

Below is my own reading of 538

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahuAAazeezun hakeemun

In other word one can read it in this way

you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands for/from what they gained 'as' a reward 'and' a deterrent from God
faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma bimakasaba jazaan nakalan mina Allahi

You can find the same sentence in 7836

A reward from your Lord, a generous gift.
Jazaan min rabbika AAataan hisaban

but how can u say that it cannot be physical punishment ?

Because the answer to your question is given in 539, the robbers must repent and make reparations after their wrongdoing.

539 means ,if the thieves repent they must be forgiven . so only the repeat offenders' hands will be amputated.

I don't share your understanding because 539 gives an additional information/explanation to 538. 'The repeat offenders..' is only your own interpretation.

Does the God forgive you only once for each error ?
(1725)

Salam

Fahad1

peace sister marie.

You cannot be are affirmative, my question is do you make the best reading of this verse (3918 )?

i believe i do .

Below is my own reading of 538

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahuAAazeezun hakeemun

In other word one can read it in this way

you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands for/from what they gained 'as' a reward 'and' a deterrent from God
faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma bimakasaba jazaan nakalan mina Allahi

u rearranged the verse to suit your meaning . that is not how to arrive at the best understanding . the verse is understood best as it is , without any rearrangement .

peace.

marie

Peace brother Fahad, all,

u rearranged the verse to suit your meaning . that is not how to arrive at the best understanding . the verse is understood best as it is , without any rearrangement .

I cannot force you to see my point, all what I tried to do in my last post is to show you that jazaan (a reward) can be linked to "from the God" like nakalan (deterrent). The verse remains the same one

A reward and deterrent from the God for the male thief, and the female thief is "faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma bimakasaba" = "you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands for/from what they gained."

There are several complementary and coherent readings for the Reading, It is upon us to follow the best of it (3918 ). In order to attain this goal we have to consider the whole Reading.

Here another derivative for the verb QataAAa

et des fruits abondants
Wafakihatin katheeratin
Never interrupted, never too far./Neither ending; nor forbidden.
La maqtooAAatin walamamnooAAatin

Let us compare the form of the verb "qataAAa" in the verses where it is used as to cut virsus other verses where "qataAAa" has a symbolic meaning

In the first case, the verb used is qattaAAa which means to cut/mark

their hands and feet be cut off on alternate sides (533)
tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin

and cut/mark their hands (1231)
waqattaAAna aydiyahunna

the women that cut/mark their hands (1250)
alnniswati allatee qattaAAna aydiyahunna

So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides (2071)
falaoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin

I will cut-off your hands and feet from alternate sides (2649)
laoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakummin khilafin

and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines (4715)
wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum

The same form with a symbolic meaning is also used in other verses

their mutual relations will collapse with them./and all excuses have abandoned them(2166)
wataqattaAAat bihimu al-asbabu

all is severed between you(694)
laqad taqattaAAabaynakum

And We separated them into twelve tribes as nations (7160)
WaqattaAAnahumu ithnatayAAashrata asbatan

And We divided them through the land as nations. (716
WaqattaAAnahum fee al-ardi omaman

their hearts are severed.(9110)
taqattaAAa quloobuhum

But people have torn their unity wide asunder(2193)
WataqattaAAoo amrahum baynahum

(2353 )

and sever your family ties (4722)
watuqattiAAoo arhamakum

Regarding the verses above, in 538 the verb QataAAa is not used in the same form like in 533, 1231, 1250, 2071, 4715

faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma -538-

I think each detail in grammar and orthography is important to have a better understanding of the Reading.

Salam

Fahad1

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

peace marie .
do u believe it is "hands" or "resources" . u previously said that u believed it is physical hands ?

marie

Salam Fahad,

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

do u believe it is "hands" or "resources" . u previously said that u believed it is physical hands ?

As I stated it in my previous message, there is not only one reading of some verses, then the two understandings are coherent because the Reading is rich in meanings. In the light of the Reading, Aydee can be understood as physical hands or power...
According the context of each verse, we choose the meaning which feet and make sence regarding the whole Reading.

IMHO, the amputation of their hands is excluded because the Reading gives us several examples where a specific form of the verb qataAAa is used to mean to cut in its literal meaning 'qattaAAa'.

'qataAAa' in 538 should be considered in its symbolic meaning and that doesn't imply any physical contact with The male thief, and the female thief hands.

The God knows best.

Salam

Fahad1

peace marie .

As I stated it in my previous message, there is not only one reading of some verses, then the two understandings are coherent because the Reading is rich in meanings. In the light of the Reading, Aydee can be understood as physical hands or power...
According the context of each verse, we choose the meaning which feet and make sence regarding the whole Reading.

if someone has multiple understnding for the verses like for example about the seven heavens (some say iy means seven universes , some say it means 7 layers in teh sky/atmosphere ) then it is ok . only God knows teh true meaning of those verses . we do not know for sure .

but these verses (like 538 ) that contain the law do not have multiple understandings . it can only have one .

hands or resources ? only one .

peace .

marie

Salam Fahad,

but these verses (like 538 ) that contain the law do not have multiple understandings . it can only have one .

hands or resources ? only one .

peace .

The law ordained in 538 remains the same one whatever the several readings

The notion of the physical hands in FM's translation is also valid because we are told to cut from their resources what they earned with their hands.
1111 illustrates the same idea

Condemned/perished is the hands (yada) of Abu-Lahab.

The word yada is one of the dual form of yad/hand and means the two physical hands of Abu-Lahab, but in the linght of the context, this what Abu-Lahab makes with his two physical hands which is Condemned/perished.

What I suggested as an explanation for 538 is similar than FM's translation. If the male thief, and the female thief spent what they have stolen, it should be cut from their resources.

Salam

Fahad1

salam marie and all .

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands,

Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma

also why is there a "from" in your translation . if u think it is "resources" , it would translate as "cut off their resources" not "cut off FROM their resources" ?

salam.

marie

salam marie and all .

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands,

Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma

also why is there a "from" in your translation . if u think it is "resources" , it would translate as "cut off their resources" not "cut off FROM their resources" ?

salam.

Sorry, I edited my last post and maybe contains the answer to your question

What I suggested as an explanation for 538 is similar than FM's translation. If the male thief, and the female thief spent what they have stolen, it should be cut from their resources.

to cut off FROM their resources only the equivalent of what they have stollen, the equivalent of the damage caused (jazan bimakasaba/the equivalent for what they earned).

Fahad1

peace marie.

What I suggested as an explanation for 538 is similar than FM's translation. If the male thief, and the female thief spent what they have stolen, it should be cut from their resources.

to cut off FROM their resources only the equivalent of what they have stollen, the equivalent of the damage caused (jazan bimakasaba/the equivalent for what they earned).

but that is not what the verse states . it only says "cut off their hands(resources, according to you)"

also , do u still link joseph's story with 538 ?

peace.
fahad.

marie

Peace fahad,

What I suggested as an explanation for 538 is similar than FM's translation. If the male thief, and the female thief spent what they have stolen, it should be cut from their resources.

to cut off FROM their resources only the equivalent of what they have stollen, the equivalent of the damage caused (jazan bimakasaba/the equivalent for what they earned).

but that is not what the verse states . it only says "cut off their hands(resources, according to you)"

I had given you the example of 1111 Condemned/perished is the hands (yada) of Abu-Lahab which mean Condemned/perished what Abu-Lahab did with his hands.

If you agree with this understanding, you can also agree that "faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi" mean cut or cut off what they earn with their two hands, "jazaan bimakasaba" explains what we have to cut off.
In the same way than 1111, In 538 the physical hands are not concerned but what one did with his hands.

also , do u still link joseph's story with 538 ?

The Reading is an excellent criterion, personnally I don't link joseph's story with 538 because this is not the same form of the verb qataAAa; we read iqtaAAoo....not qattiAAoo... which is specific to mean to cut both in the literal and symbolic meaning (see my previous posts).

Salam

Fahad1

also , do u still link joseph's story with 538 ?

The Reading is an excellent criterion, personnally I don't link joseph's story with 538 because this is not the same form of the verb qataAAa; we read iqtaAAoo....not qattiAAoo... which is specific to mean to cut both in the literal and symbolic meaning (see my previous posts).

i meant the story of joseph and his brothers involving theft . like the "theft punishment" article at free-minds.org links it with 538 ?

peace.fahad.

marie

Peace Fahad,

also , do u still link joseph's story with 538 ?

The Reading is an excellent criterion, personnally I don't link joseph's story with 538 because this is not the same form of the verb qataAAa; we read iqtaAAoo....not qattiAAoo... which is specific to mean to cut both in the literal and symbolic meaning (see my previous posts).

i meant the story of joseph and his brothers involving theft . like the "theft punishment" article at free-minds.org links it with 538 ?

I think in the story of joseph is a lesson for us about the reward of theft. In the same chapter, the God gives us a criterion for the verb qataAAa to mean literally to cut/mark. This is not a coincidence.

Salam

brirob

peace, all.

the story of joseph

123 We relate to you the best stories through what We have inspire to you in this quran; and before it you were of those who were unaware.

1275 They said, "The punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as a punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked."

back to 127 It is thus that in Joseph and his brothers are signs for those who ask.

12111 In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.

peace,
brian

Fahad1

The Reading is an excellent criterion, personnally I don't link joseph's story with 538 because this is not the same form of the verb qataAAa; we read iqtaAAoo....not qattiAAoo... which is specific to mean to cut both in the literal and symbolic meaning (see my previous posts).

qaTTaa is not specefic to mean both physical and symbolic cut . qaTaa is also used to mean both physical and non-physical/symbolic .
(qaTaa is used for physical cut in 595, 538,6946 )

peace.

marie

Salam Fahad,

Ahmad Shabir's traslation

595 Whatever softness you disregarded, or kept up by way of principle, was in accord with Allahs Command, in order that He might disgrace those who drifted away from their treaties.(Lina = Softness, gentleness = Soft young palm tree. Fasiq = One who drifts away).

6946 And would have cut off his Aorta.

When the God speak about hand and foot He doesn't use qataAAa but qattaAAa, this is only my criterion. One has to compare two similars sentences with the same form.

Let us suppose that wateen = Aorta and lina = tree, the God also uses the form qataAAa and not qattaAAa.

In the verses you quoted, the verb qataAAa should be considered in its symbolic meaning.

Salam

Fahad1

595 Whatever softness you disregarded, or kept up by way of principle, was in accord with Allah?s Command, in order that He might disgrace those who drifted away from their treaties.(?Lina? = Softness, gentleness = Soft young palm tree. ?Fasiq? = One who drifts away).

6946 And would have cut off his Aorta.

peace Marie.
both verses are easily understandable without taking help from 'erroneous traditions' . i see no problem in the understanding that lina(palm tree) and wateen(artery) are phyically cut .
peace.

marie

Agree to disagree )

Thanks for this debate.

I leave you with peace.