Is Love an Illusion?
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O Andya you make me smile. Define Love in precise terms? I wish I could Andya. But love is not a mathematical formula. Love is not logical. Just like belief in a God is not logical. If I was able to give you a formula for love, I would have patented it myself and traded it on the stock market -)
Not define love in precise terms, give an example case of 'unrequited love' as you understand it. The poem is too vague.
Love is indeed very subjective experience and it is through the power of poetry, art and music that you can convey at least some of the meaning of that experience. We are not just rational human beings Andya. We have intuitions and imaginations. It is these things that allow us to "see" beyond logic. Greatest breakthroughs and insights in science came about when human beings took an imaginative and intuitive leap into the unknown.
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
Again, I ask for an example. Of course I know you think it's subjective, therefore I ask for your understanding. It would be subjective if I offer my own, which is probably different from yours given said subjectivity.
Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
You concentrate on a particular case. To love (of which I think you mean care and support, not desire in the sexual sense?) a terminally ill person is just an extension of the general tendency to help others, and it is this general tendency that has survival values.
Care and support? There are nurses for that. But love goes beyond this.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
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I think that love is real. The problem is that it is often equated with romance, lust, or maybe just liking someone as much as is convenient for you at that time, or the worst of them all, being "in love.". Love is feeling bonded to someone through your souls. It isn't something that you can decide to do, you either love someone or you don't. You love a person because of who they are, and their spirit. It is the ability to almost see their soul and feel bonded and conforted by what you see. And this kind of love is the same regardless of the subject of your love. It is the same love that you have for your mother, father, siblings, lover, friends, etc. The problem is when people think that "liking" someone a lot means that they love them. That is not love, it is just usually a strong like that is combined with sexual interest or the joy of having fun with that person. A true test of love is 1. Does it go away regardless of the actions of the other person 2. Do you have to compromise yourself for this love? If so, then it is not love. I'd like to add that the Quran says that Allah puts love between spouses as a mercy to mankind.
I also do not think that love between lovers is evolutionarily sound. Men and women can reproduce though lust and stay together through a love for the child.
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Peace,
No. When it comes to humans, there's no such thing as a 'simple want'. That is unless you want to discount cultural evolution; and even so, you'll find that humans were monogamous long before 'civilisations' took form.
Um, would you like to bring forth the evidence that humans were monagamous long before civilisations took form.
I think you'll find that you are mistaken. It is still not known whether humans were mongamous or not, I've heard more favouritism denying monagmous relationships.
Marriage is just another word for monogamy, and plenty of animals are monogamous. Anyway, cultural evolution and conscious thought processing > instincts.
And plenty of animals of polygamous, what's your point?????
As far as you undermining instincts, then can you explain why our gaols are filled with murderers and bank robbers????????
Yes. Let's go back to looting and pillaging.
Whoever said looting and pillaging???
If your mind works at that rate, then sure go for it.
Chimpanzees share. In fact, they exhibit a lot of traits once thought were exclusive to humans.
Actually once again it's the alpha male who decides who gets to eat when.
How can you 'disbelieve' in love when someone says "I am in love"? You can say 'I've never been in love" but you have absolutely no logical ground to label them liars.
Fine you say love exists, prove it.
And neo, please if you're going to be pedantic don't bother replying. Looting and pillaging, please........ roll
Peace idolfree,
Agree with your post and....
This discussion of "warm and fuzzy" are chemical reactions in your body from emzymes and such that are released from mental stimulation, just like the way a mans reproduction tool becomes erect, etc. Butterflies in your stomach and all these things are just bodily reactions. One should not associate that with the energy that manifests "Love".
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!
Evolution of the human once again.
But getting back to pack animals in general, you're right, to a degree. Wolves for instance, fit this mold, but not always. Smaller families of wolves, particularly when it's just a male, female, and pups, act very similar to bats(minus the ostracizing). The male hunts while the female stays with the pups. When the male returns, he regurgitates the food for the female to eat so that the pups can have their precious milk. When they're older, he regurgitates the food for them to eat directly. That's sharing.
Peace Tay,
Yes I agree with you but wasn't I talking about self-preservation, survival of the fittest???????
By the male wolf taking care of his family is he ensuring his genetics survive?
I see...so this is an evolution of the neanderthal method of clubbing potential suitors to death? I think there's a little more to it than that.
But two people who love each other and know they're going to be together forever, why the need for a piece of paper????
Why not live together without that ring???
I agree with you here, but that does not explain people marrying with no intention of reproducing.
http//www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22stop+human+reproduction%22&meta=
http//www.deathandhell.com/corpus/manifestos/notbreeding.html
See what I mean by humans being confused of their roles????
Apes?
And You've proved my point. We don't know who we are. And no I'm not saying I know, I don't know. We need to be at PEACE with who we are.
Agreed. But going back to animal instinct is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say? Perhaps compassion is one of those attributes that sets us apart from the animal kingdom. Perhaps compassion is a manifestation of love. And perhaps love is something that you've yet to experience, atleast in a romantic sense.
I'm not saying go back to animal instincts only. But we sure do need to understand ourselves better. With the amount of multi-million corporations screwing the little people over, the amount of murderers, the amount of thieves running rampant in our world, we are having a problem containing our animal instincts.
I've been down the path of "making girls fall in love", as you mentioned in a different post. What I learned, in retrospect, was not that I made them fall in love with me, but that I learned how to represent the ideal of what each girl expressed she desired in a person. I molded myself to fit each fantasy. This is not love. It's completely superficial and very temporary. It lacks substance.
YOU know that, but do the girls?????
Was it love for them?????
Was it real for them???????
Overall, it seems you have a very mechanical view of the world. Do you love anyone? Friends? Family? Pets? Are all your relationships strictly those that provide some sort of tangible advantage over not having those relationships, ie, security, nourshment, shelter, etc?
Of course I'm not a robot, I have emotions and feelings. However, I do realise that I have been created in such a way to be confused. wink
Only a small part? People have given up their thrones, their kingdom and empires and even their very lives for Love and that is just only for Love of a another individual! So can you not see how powerful Love is? Is it still small part?
Poets, musicians, Artists have been inspired and transformed by Love (or lack of Love) and some have wasted away trying to understand what Love is. So is it still small part?
Peace LoteTree,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
But it is this "small corner" as you say it, that tells us what we are, as human beings. It is this small corner that give us a glimpse to what Love is.
Actually what I was getting at is that morals and ethics have evolved thorught the years aswell.
It may have been acceptable to kill anyone who disrespected you but today that is no longer acceptable.
I believe with the advancement of our morals and ethics that stronger bonds have been formed between family members.
I am incapable of such manipulations (I am not being moralistic here but that is just me). But you can't make someone Love you like this. It does not work that way. I am sure if you are beautiful then it is easy to manipulate young, naieve and inexperienced girls, who are trying to understand the meaning of love themselves to "fall in" love with you as you say. But this is not love but a sexual power-play between the strong and the weak. Love is anti-thesis of this kind of Power. I would say Love and Power are opposites. But I am sure with experience these girls that you have made to fall in love with you will realise what a ogre of a person you are. And they too will come to understand one day what love means and continually seek its meanings.
Sorry to dissappoint you but everyone is capable of manipulating the opposite sex. Some very minor examples, make-up, car, clean shaven, etc, etc, etc......
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone. -
peace to all,
"Love" is just a word....what matters most is the connection.
peace
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Peace Esimsek,
Yes I agree with you but wasn't I talking about self-preservation, survival of the fittest???????
By the male wolf taking care of his family is he ensuring his genetics survive?Of course. I just wanted to let you know that other animals share as well. Nothing of importance, really.
But two people who love each other and know they're going to be together forever, why the need for a piece of paper????
Why not live together without that ring???I agree. The ring and the paper are technicalities; logistics, if you will. That's really not what's being discussed. We're talking about the connection between the two, which you described as mutual ownership. That's where I disagree, although, I do agree that there probably are folks who are married and feel some sort of ownership in the union. I just don't think that describes all the people who say they're in love.
I hope that's clear.
See what I mean by humans being confused of their roles????
Yes. And I'm not saying that people aren't confused. All I'm saying is that someone who says they're in love cannot be lumped into the category of "confused". We're all confused, and people have always been confused. That does not negate the existence of love.
And You've proved my point. We don't know who we are. And no I'm not saying I know, I don't know. We need to be at PEACE with who we are.
If we don't know who we are, how can we be at peace with who we are?
The answer is We are not our minds, we are soul.I'm not saying go back to animal instincts only. But we sure do need to understand ourselves better. With the amount of multi-million corporations screwing the little people over, the amount of murderers, the amount of thieves running rampant in our world, we are having a problem containing our animal instincts.
Esimsek, this has always been the nature of mankind- back to pharoanic times, and before. Things are no different today. They've just evolved a different disguise. We're no longer building pyramids, we're selling real estate and flipping burgers and fixing computers and producing machinery, etc. Different mode, same outcome. But again, this has nothing to do with the existence of love.
YOU know that, but do the girls?????
Was it love for them?????
Was it real for them???????At the time, I'm sure it felt very real. But if each person chooses to let themselves grow and to love themselves, then eventually they'll be able to differentiate between falling in love with the idea of falling in love, and truly making a loving connection with someone - something that is deeper than exterior qualities and achievements.
Of course I'm not a robot, I have emotions and feelings. However, I do realise that I have been created in such a way to be confused.
Join the club wink
What I'm learning, however, is that confusion is usually caused by letting the mind run wild to govern itself, or when the mind acts out of sync with the soul. The soul knows without words. That's why you'll find yourself doing something you know is wrong. Where does that "knowing" come from if not the soul? The mind cannot comprehend love, because love cannot be put into words and ideas- which are the only tools of the mind. Love can only be felt. And it can only be expressed by the one word which symoblizes, yet does not define, the experience lovePeace,
Tay -
Salaam sweet Br Jaxal,
Don't say this is because you can't get those women you longing for.
Love is both pleasure and pain.
Peace Sis Majidah
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SaLaM My Sweet Sweet Lovely Sister
Its the truth. I am not saying this out of my personel experiances. Ive seen this happen. I usually form my opinions by observing other people and resources. There is a hadith somewhere that one of Adam's son killed his brother over a love for a woman. Lollllllllllllllllll
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Salaam Sweet Br Jaxal,
I know people can do crazy things out of love, but I guess it is weak persons who do that.I mean a normal persons have obstacles who prevent him from doing such a crazy thing to kill someone out of jealousy.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace esimsek100,
Arranged marriages tend to last longer due to the respect that surrounds them.
If that, that they last longer, is true, it could be also because in the cultures where arranged marriage is practiced, divorce is frowned upon. Besides "last longer" is not synonymous of success or good relationship.
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts.
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones.
...bragging a lot?? )))
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Hello Andya,
Not define love in precise terms, give an example case of 'unrequited love' as you understand it. The poem is too vague.
The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,Here is the anger.
How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.Trying to understand.
Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.Coming to terms with it.
Were all stars to disappear or die,
I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.A glimmer of hope in coming to terms with Love.
So on simplest level Unrequited Love is like loving the stars.
Here is a web definition for your scientific mind.
Unrequited love is love is that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired .
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
Love is illogical and therefore will never conform to tests of empirical falsification. Therefore you can't discount love because it fails empirical tests. If you discount love in this way then you must discount God also.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
Care and support can be bought with money. And nurses get paid well. Love can't be bought with money Andya. In fact people have given up wealth and power for Love -)
As I have said I am still struggling to understand what Love is. So far I have come to this view that Love is not Sex. For me Love, on the simplest level, (if we just take the love between two individuals for instance), is about an intellectual and spiritual connection with a another individual. I would say Love is a meeting - no, not just meeting, but the coming together and joining of the mind, body and the spirit. And this love is not just about sex. Sex is the need of the body and can be done with anyone if you have little imagination (that?s what the vast majority of the people do on their Friday night?s out). Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
But on a deeper level, Love is an contemplation (theoria) of the Idea of the Good. And on deeper level still our human Love is just a pointer to the Divine Love. But I have not had any insights into Love on these levels yet. Perhaps we need to exhuast all our rational thinking before we have an insight into the the Divine Love.
So there you have it Andya. I think Love goes beyond any general care and support, love goes beyond any mere survival value of the family unit/pack. In fact Romantic Love seems to cause a lot of disruption, strife and grief in the family unit/pack! -) and also is the cause of many break-ups of the family unit/pack!
Regards,
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Hello esimsek100,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of cancer in few months?
I believe with the advancement of our morals and ethics that stronger bonds have been formed between family members.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
Sorry to dissappoint you but everyone is capable of manipulating the opposite sex. Some very minor examples, make-up, car, clean shaven, etc, etc, etc......
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone.This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
Regards,
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Peace all,
Peace Tay,
First off, I'm just going to have to say we should agree to disagree. What I'm sensing is that your outlook on life is too spiritual (for me).
You seem to be able to differentiate the mind and soul, I can't because to me the soul doesn't exist as a seperate entity. The mind is the soul (for me).
And whatever doesn't follow rational logic does not make sense to me, actually I refuse to accept it. Everywhere I look I see rational logic in Allah's creations and that's why I cannot accept too much spirituality (emotions).
Peace Elena,
If that, that they last longer, is true, it could be also because in the cultures where arranged marriage is practiced, divorce is frowned upon. Besides "last longer" is not synonymous of success or good relationship.
True, but I meant it in a way where people grow in "love".
...bragging a lot?? )))
Well not really, only confirming that I've got personal experience to back up my argument. But if you consider it bragging, what you doing tonight? wink
Peace LoteTree,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of cancer in few months?
My reply was not in relation to someone with cancer.
My reply to someone with cancer was that after thousands of years of evolution we have changed, thus, possibly, resulting in stronger family bonds.
Once again strength in numbers, survival of the fittest.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
How can love and compassion make us human????
We are human even without love and compassion. Love and compassion are small parts of humans, definitely not the other way around. Art reflects emotions, not just love in particular. There's even arguments against religion which debunk marriage.
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
Who said you do it knowingly, who says I do it knowingly??? I'm talking about sub-concious, INSTINCTS.
Every single human has the natural instinct to find a mate, that is why the human race is thriving in numbers at this day and age. As far as the concept of some people finding loads of partners and some people not being able to find many partners, it's the case of practice makes perfect. But yet EVERYONE HAS THAT ABILITY.
This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
As I said to Tay, there is no soul, no spirit for me. Excuse my language but for me it's a load of BS.
For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.
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The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Well, it doesn't make me cry?
So on simplest level Unrequited Love is like loving the stars.
Here is a web definition for your scientific mind.
Unrequited love is love is that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired .
OK. I'll take that as your example. Unrequited love is like loving the stars.
Which, if taken at face value, has no survival value.
Although I can still try to stretch the adaptationist explanation You love the stars, which are balls of gas light-years away, because they are beautiful.
Because they are beautiful, they appeal to your innate tendency to love beautiful objects.
Now here is where I think my adaptationist explanation is overstretched The tendency to love beautiful is surely an adaptation, because individuals who love beautiful objects will tend to try to look for beautiful mates, and tend to produce beautiful children which are more desired by others, and therefore have a better chance to reproduce. I say overstretched because I don't know how a fondness for a beautiful mate can be stretched into a general sense of aestheticism. But a lot of animals have this aesthetic tendency for example, males of an Australian bird species builds elaborate nests, trying to attract the females. The nests themselves do not correspond directly to the males' fitness; it's just that the females have an aesthetic tendency.
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
So you say. I appreciate your view you seem to be (or want to be) in an artistic field so I can understand your defense of imagination and intuition. You remind me of a friend of mine with sufist tendencies who talks of intuition all the time.
Note that I give more weight to empiricism (compatibility with evidence) and not logic. Even logic (or 'common sense') in science sometimes must be tampered by evidence.
Love is illogical and therefore will never conform to tests of empirical falsification. Therefore you can't discount love because it fails empirical tests. If you discount love in this way then you must discount God also.
You misrepresent me. I never said love should be discounted. On the contrary I think love, as an adaptation, is real. Just like our hands are real. I'm not in the 'everything-is-illusion' crowd.
Love doesn't fail empirical tests. People can show their love to whatever in visible ways kissing, giving support, sacrificing their live.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
Care and support can be bought with money. And nurses get paid well. Love can't be bought with money Andya. In fact people have given up wealth and power for Love -)
What part of loving a terminally ill person goes beyond care and support then? I didn't get your drift.
As I have said I am still struggling to understand what Love is. So far I have come to this view that Love is not Sex. For me Love, on the simplest level, (if we just take the love between two individuals for instance), is about an intellectual and spiritual connection with a another individual. I would say Love is a meeting - no, not just meeting, but the coming together and joining of the mind, body and the spirit. And this love is not just about sex. Sex is the need of the body and can be done with anyone if you have little imagination (that?s what the vast majority of the people do on their Friday night?s out). Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
But on a deeper level, Love is an contemplation (theoria) of the Idea of the Good. And on deeper level still our human Love is just a pointer to the Divine Love. But I have not had any insights into Love on these levels yet. Perhaps we need to exhuast all our rational thinking before we have an insight into the the Divine Love.
So there you have it Andya. I think Love goes beyond any general care and support, love goes beyond any mere survival value of the family unit/pack. In fact Romantic Love seems to cause a lot of disruption, strife and grief in the family unit/pack! -) and also is the cause of many break-ups of the family unit/pack!
Well that's your opinion. I still think love is an elaboration of an assortment of adaptations such as aestheticism, lust, tendency to care and support, and sociability. Many people think that scientific explanations tend to devalue things, but I can't see why people would think so. Is it because science take out the mysteries and miracles people crave so much?
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Hello esimsek,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of
cancer in few months?My reply was not in relation to someone with cancer.
My reply to someone with cancer was that after thousands of years of evolution we have changed, thus, possibly, resulting in stronger family bonds. Once again strength in numbers, survival of the fittest.Lets go over this again
You said
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
and I said
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of
cancer in few months?Why would the subconscious choose a living-dead person to pass on your genetics? You would have thought sub-conscious would have chosen someone healthy?
But the cancer example defeats your "mechanistic" and "survival-of-the-fittest" view of humanity does it not? Your mehanistic view does not account for that does it? Yes, it is true natural selection has played it's part in our evolution. But something happended in our evolutionary past that set us apart from the rest of the Animal world. And I see Love and compassion is the thing that set us apart. Even as an animal we are very unique because we are not just our biology, we are not just our reason but we have imagination and intituition that allow us to go beyond all these things. And also there is something in us that that inspires us to create Art even though all art is useless. Why create a useless thing? There is also something in us that seeks meaning in our lives.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
How can love and compassion make us human????
We are human even without love and compassion. Love and compassion are small parts of humans, definitely not the other way around. Art reflects emotions, not just love in particular. There's even arguments against religion which debunk marriage.It is Love and Compassion that sets us apart from the rest of the Animal world does it not? Homo Sapiens are also homo-spiritual and homo-religious. We created Art at the same time we created Gods and religions. Art reflects human spirituality, even the primitive cave paintings depicts humanity's wonder at the world. The earliest Archeologoical finds have unearthed clay and stone statues depicting Gods and Goddess. It is through Art that human beings tried to make sense of this beautiful and yet terrifying world of ours, and also to come to terms with the death and tragedy of life.
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
Who said you do it knowingly, who says I do it knowingly??? I'm talking about sub-concious, INSTINCTS.
This is what you have written
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts. After being able to manipulate girls into "falling in love" with me, I now understand that love is all an illusion.
...and
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair
experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone.Now it is a sub-conscious INSTINCT for survival?
If love is INSTICT then you would not fall in love with the sick.But I say to you that SEX is the REPRODUCTIVE instinct.
But LOVE is not because LOVE is not SEX but SEX can be part of LOVE.Every single human has the natural instinct to find a mate, that is why the
human race is thriving in numbers at this day and age.I say that is a REPRODUCTIVE INSTINCT to find a mate.
As far as the concept of some people finding loads of partners and some people not being able to find many partners, it's the case of practice makes perfect. But yet EVERYONE HAS THAT ABILITY.
I say, LOVE is something that happens to you, it is not forced. It can't be
forced or manipulated. But Sexual Powerplay is open to manipulation. SEX is the thing that submits to your Supply and demand tactics. And this supply and demand tactic is played out every friday nights out by millions of people around the world.This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
As I said to Tay, there is no soul, no spirit for me. Excuse my language but for me it's a load of BS.
Load of BS?
You speak like a congenitally deaf person who insists so vehemently that music is a fabrication of those that hear so that they can act out their temporary madness by moving their hands, legs and body about in a crazy way.You need to recognise that human beings are also spiritual animal esimsek. We are not just homo sapiens but also homo-spiritual. Our Idea of God and even Quran and other scriptures are borne out of spiritual experiences of human beings. To deny this truth is not rational.
But anyway I see you have run out of arguments.
Thanks for your contribution.For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind
controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.But that does not explain why people give up clothes, shelter and mating for Love does it? People even give up their life for love!
But that is the crux of the matter isn't it? Your "mind" can't explain away
Love can it? And as I said before even honest atheist find it hard to discount Love. But one thing is for sure. Love is "experienced" it can't be grasped with your intellect nor can it be put into a simple "survial of the fittest" argument because Love is not logical just like belief in a God is not logical...Regards,
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Peace be up0on you SA,
"Love" is just a word....what matters most is the connection.
That movie is the best!!
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Peace Esimsek,
First off, I'm just going to have to say we should agree to disagree. What I'm sensing is that your outlook on life is too spiritual (for me).
Okie Dokie
You seem to be able to differentiate the mind and soul, I can't because to me the soul doesn't exist as a seperate entity. The mind is the soul (for me).
I have no problem with your understanding. To each his/her own. But if you ever decide to flirt with the idea, a good starting point would be to ask yourself "What part of the mind witnesses the mind?" No need to answer, just some food for thought.
And whatever doesn't follow rational logic does not make sense to me, actually I refuse to accept it. Everywhere I look I see rational logic in Allah's creations and that's why I cannot accept too much spirituality (emotions).
Again, no problem. I've been down that path and didn't find it fruitful. Perhaps you'll encounter different results. In either case, take care. It was nice chatting.
)>-
-Tay -
Peace LoteTree,
Why would the subconscious choose a living-dead person to pass on your genetics? You would have thought sub-conscious would have chosen someone healthy?
But the cancer example defeats your "mechanistic" and "survival-of-the-fittest" view of humanity does it not? Your mehanistic view does not account for that does it?
But see you're neglecting part of my answer.
STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
The person you usually feel sorrow for is either a relative or close friend. Someone who's part of your TRIBE, someone who benefits your survival.
In addition I've also stated that through years of evolution, humans have managed to place more important on bonds (between each other). This has, too, led to better survival practices.
The cancer example in no way defeats my "mechanic" view.
It is Love and Compassion that sets us apart from the rest of the Animal world does it not? Homo Sapiens are also homo-spiritual and homo-religious. We created Art at the same time we created Gods and religions. Art reflects human spirituality, even the primitive cave paintings depicts humanity's wonder at the world. The earliest Archeologoical finds have unearthed clay and stone statues depicting Gods and Goddess. It is through Art that human beings tried to make sense of this beautiful and yet terrifying world of ours, and also to come to terms with the death and tragedy of life.
No, it is through rationalising that humans have tried to make sense of this world.
First touching on homo-sapiens, which means the man who thinks.
That is what sets us apart, our minds.
Man used to worship the sun, then made idols to worship. Why? We feared the God's would destroy us (the setting of the sun scared early humans), once again SURVIVAL.
Cave paintings a log book, records of what they had done.
Now it is a sub-conscious INSTINCT for survival?
If love is INSTICT then you would not fall in love with the sick.But I say to you that SEX is the REPRODUCTIVE instinct.
But LOVE is not because LOVE is not SEX but SEX can be part of LOVE.Love is not an instinct, "love" is a by-product of the thousands of years old ritual of MATING.
What part of "we have evolved/changed throughout the thousands of years" don't you understand????
Love is nothing but a by-product. Remember we are homo sapiens, the man who thinks. Some even know us as the homo sapiens sapiens, the man who thinks he thinks.
Did our civilisation suddenly pop out of thin air? No, it took years of testing to find an answer. People have tried and failed, tried and failed. Love happened to be something that humans accepted.
We are fooled into believing "love", through TV, papers, magazines, movies, etc, etc...
It is not there. Peace is something that is very much a reality. Peace is something that is realistically attainable. But Love, love is like insisting on having a gold filling.
I say that is a REPRODUCTIVE INSTINCT to find a mate.
And Love is a by-product of this one small instinct.
You need to recognise that human beings are also spiritual animal esimsek. We are not just homo sapiens but also homo-spiritual. Our Idea of God and even Quran and other scriptures are borne out of spiritual experiences of human beings. To deny this truth is not rational.
And exactly what spiritual experiences are you talking about?????
The spirit is part of the mind.
There is no soul, there is no spirit, it is only the mind. It is simply electric signals running through your body.
Meditating is simply done by havingc ontrol of your mind and once this is acheived the rest of your body is at your will.
But that does not explain why people give up clothes, shelter and mating for Love does it? People even give up their life for love!
I honestly don't know what you're reading or what you're getting at. Where you quoted me-
For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind
controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.How on earth am I speaking about other people???
I'm speaking about me, those people who give up their life for "love" have no rationality, have no control over their mind. Your emotions and body is a slave to your mind, it should never be the other way round. That is called ill-discipline.
But that is the crux of the matter isn't it? Your "mind" can't explain away
Love can it? And as I said before even honest atheist find it hard to discount Love. But one thing is for sure. Love is "experienced" it can't be grasped with your intellect nor can it be put into a simple "survial of the fittest" argument because Love is not logical just like belief in a God is not logical...Oh don't you worry I've logically explained love away, but you just have been off in your own little world, not wanting to understand what I've been telling you. You pick pieces out of my argument and mix and match with other pieces of my argument that have nothing to do with it.
And finally your words of -
And as I said before even honest atheist find it hard to discount Love.
argument because Love is not logical just like belief in a God is not logical...
Many atheists dismiss God because it is not logical. Using your reasoning, hence they dismiss the notion of love.
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SaLaM
Love is like weed. Both are bad for you. Both give false sensations. Thts what has got a lot o you confused.
OO bro!! dont blame weed for love..((.. I like weed DD
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Peace be up0on you SA,
"Love" is just a word....what matters most is the connection.
That movie is the best!!
damn ur right..D and I think it makes lot of sense..
peace