MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform

Edip_Yuksel

Ayman

You forget that the law, regardless of its truth-value, is too a subject of interpration and different readings. What you are promoting is a hundred percent dictatorship, and what I am promoting is an imperfet system that occasionally can be abused.

I will not consider any system democratic unless it provides unencumbered right to freely choose and express one's ideas or religion. So, with this qualification I believe that democracy is the best possible system we can have..

Jingoism or racism is not a necessary component of democracy. The connection is only a corelation.

Peace,
Edip

ayman

You forget that the law, regardless of its truth-value, is too a subject of interpration and different readings.

What is wrong with interpretation and reading? At least they are productive activities.

On the other hand, in a democracy (rule of the majority), the law is subject to the whims of the majority. This is wholly unproductive.

What you are promoting is a hundred percent dictatorship, and what I am promoting is an imperfet system that occasionally can be abused.

Where did I promote dictatorship?

Democracy itself is a kind of abuse. The only difference is that unlike the tyranny of an unpopular dictator who can be easily overthrown, the tyranny of the majority and its popular dictators can't be overthrown. Often, the only way is for them to self-destruct.

I will not consider any system democratic unless it provides unencumbered right to freely choose and express one's ideas or religion. So, with this qualification I believe that democracy is the best possible system we can have..

That is an oxymoron. Democracy means "rule of the majority". So whatever the majority decides in a vote or any form of popular support is what goes. You know this and hence you have said above that democracy is "the majority's right to govern themselves" and you didn't say anything about any restrictions.

Once you start putting restrictions so that "majority's right to govern themselves" is restricted, then this is not democracy anymore and I would agree with your proposal.

Jingoism or racism is not a necessary component of democracy. The connection is only a corelation.

Those are tools of democracy. Telling the majority that they are better than everyone else is a sure way to get their support. I am sure that the criminals (6123) have thought of that and other equally sure ways.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Edip,

The Quran blames majority for failing regarding their belief system, regarding their opion on God, resurrection, and related metaphisical issues. Thus, the Quran never asks the prophet or submitters to consult others regarding their philosophical conviction; they must seek the truth on their own. However, in matters that involve practical decisions that effect other people in this world, such as the tax code, traffic law, city ordinances, treaties with other nations, etc.; in this case we are instructed to get the concent of others.

Don't "belief systems" effect other people in the world?

I do agree that one must seek the truth for themself, but your beliefs are what guide you through life, and they CERTAINLY EFFECT all the people around you. For example, have you been around a MAN who BELIEVES he should act like a woman and seek other men for sexual pleasure? Or have you been around someone who BELIEVES they should steal from others to get ahaead in life? Or have you been around one who BELIEVES that all people who reject hadiths should be killed? These things certainly effect others.

We cannot seperate ANYTHING from the WHOLE. Oneness gives us the KEY.

Government should be run by people who KNOW, not BELIEVE, and we only KNOW by verification.

Edip_Yuksel

Once you start putting restrictions so that "majority's right to govern themselves" is restricted, then this is not democracy anymore and I would agree with your proposal.

Ayman

This restriction is a naturally occurring restriction. It is called social contract. If I am a minority and if my freedom to believe and to have my own opinion and to express them is restricted by the majority, I will either FIGHT against such a majority and its democracy or LEAVE such a community to find a better one.

So, smart majorities who take lessons from past experiences, will know in advance, that it is better for them and everyone to respect the rights of minorities, especially their freedom of expression. As for not so smart majorities, whatever you do you cannot change their condition!

As for your suggestion of "oligarchy" or "aristocracy" under the excuse of Rule of Law... Study the US constitution, and then compare it its practical application throught decades and the ever-changing opinion of Supreme Court cases based on the same constitution. Any law, including God's law, is subject to perception, filtration, and interpretation of humans, including you and your "wise" friends.

Unfortunately, I do not have much time to engage in a lengthy discussion on this topic with you, but I find your solution to be derived from a naive idealism, which reminds me the proverb, "the path to hell is paved with many good intentions."

Peace,
Edip

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Edip, Ayman et al

Nowhere in Al-quraan is there a rule of majority or even a collective decision making. Nowhere at all.

Al-Quraan saysIt is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee so pass over (Their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (wa shawirhum fil amr). Then, when thou hast Taken a decision (fa iza azamTA) put thy trust in Allah. (3/159)

Therefore, the decision was made by ONE person. This person holds the office of ar-rasool, the one who bears the message and is the leader of the movement.

David and Solomon, both of which are our examples, were KINGS (malik) and examples of thier power are recorded in al-quraan.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum again,

I would also caution against this 'guilt trip' tactic employed by Lote-Tree. Democracy is a WORD used by the current hegemons. The majority in the west have NEVER had any power to decide much. The 'democratic system' has layers and layers of insulation from the real electricity of power. The need for a huge 'war chest' during the time of election should tell us who is REALLY behind the facade of political parties. Lets escape this banal superficiality please.

unknownuser

I would also caution against this 'guilt trip' tactic employed by Lote-Tree.

Guilt-Trip? Really?
So now questioning if Quran Promotes Democracy or not is a Guilt-Trip tactic?

Regards,

mquran

Guilt-Trip? Really?
So now questioning if Quran Promotes Democracy or not is a Guilt-Trip tactic?

Please dont flatter yourself, LT. The guilt-trip was induced by the overwhelming use of the word 'democracy, freedom, tolerance'.
Questioning the Quran is something everyone should do, it encourages questioning but from people who studied the Quran for 2 YEARS and still thinks it has the concept of 'dhimmis', we must be careful. Such people are clearly fakes and try to pretend to be evolved when clearly they are just full of it.

unknownuser

Please dont flatter yourself, LT.

Hey those are my words!!! Get your own -)

The guilt-trip was induced by the overwhelming use of the word 'democracy, freedom, tolerance'.

So to you those are GUILT-TRIP words?
Blimey!

Questioning the Quran is something everyone should do, it encourages questioning but from people who studied the Quran for 2 YEARS and still thinks it has the concept of 'dhimmis', we must be careful.

OK O wise one - answer me Does Quran Promote Democracy?

Such people are clearly fakes and try to pretend to be evolved when clearly they are just full of it.

It is usually those who call others fakes are themselves are fakes -)
But I am not calling you a fake. I have a word for you. But will not say it. It will burst your blood vessels.

But lets put aside the personal stuff and answer the question.

If you want to go on 1-2-1 in personal insults with me then lets do it on the off-topic section. Just you and me using Queensbury Rules OK?

Regards,

mquran

OK O wise one - answer me Does Quran Promote Democracy?

This is why it's pointless to discuss anything with you. Even when the answer is 2 posts ABOVE, you still repeat the question.

If you want to go on 1-2-1 in personal insults with me then lets do it on the off-topic section. Just you and me using Queensbury Rules OK?

I will submit to this if you can tell me from ur 'quranic utopia' thread - who is a MUSLIM, according to the quran.

thank you.

unknownuser

OK O wise one - answer me Does Quran Promote Democracy?

This is why it's pointless to discuss anything with you. Even when the answer is 2 posts ABOVE, you still repeat the question.

I want to hear it again from you. In simple Yes or No.

Does Quran Promote DEMOCRACY?

Thanks.

Regards,

mquran

I want to hear it again from you. In simple Yes or No.

Does Quran Promote DEMOCRACY?

If I tell you, will you tell what a Muslim is according to the Quraan ? In simple yes or no

unknownuser

I want to hear it again from you. In simple Yes or No.

Does Quran Promote DEMOCRACY?

If I tell you, will you tell what a Muslim is according to the Quraan ? In simple yes or no

Oh Chap this is not a school play ground and we are not kids! This is a forum. Answer the question if you like, if not it does not matter -)

Regards,

mquran

Oh Chap this is not a school play ground and we are not kids! This is a forum. Answer the question if you like, if not it does not matter

LT, behind that facade of sophistication you project, lies an empty vessel. The truth is, you have done zero reading and even with that, you opine on the Quran. No wonder your opinions appear hollow. You don't even know what a 'muslim' is.

And no, the Quran doesn't promote democracy. Not at all.

unknownuser

And no, the Quran doesn't promote democracy. Not at all.

Then we are in AGREEMENT here (suprisingly enough! -))

QURAN IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

So why is Mr. Edip Yuksel saying Quran promotes DEMOCRACY?

LT, behind that facade of sophistication you project, lies an empty vessel.

Did I project such sophistication to you?
You make me smile -)

I am so unsophisticated, chap. I am just an ordinary Joe Bloggs.

And yes I have emptied myself of everything so that I contain your all your sublime wisdom. So lets have it -)

The truth is, you have done zero reading and even with that, you opine on the Quran.

Really? -)
Where do you think the login ID "Lote-Tree" comes from?
Here is a clue sidrati-almuntaha

No wonder your opinions appear hollow.

Another critic?
A critic knows the price of everything and value of nothing.
(a joke -))

But it looks like there is no getting away from you personalising this thread!
-(

Regards

mquran

Then we are in AGREEMENT here (suprisingly enough! )

QURAN IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

So why is Mr. Edip Yuksel saying Quran promotes DEMOCRACY?

I don't know. Long time ago, Mr Yuksel rightly told me to make my own opinions about Islam. Now im saying the same thing to you. If you have a problem with my opinions, don't tell me Mr so and so said so and so. This shows that you have no mind of your own. Opine for yourself and bring your opinions forward.

Did I project such sophistication to you?
You make me smile

What does the word 'FACADE' mean ?

Really?
Where do you think the login ID "Lote-Tree" comes from?
Here is a clue sidrati-almuntaha

And where does the word 'dhimmi' come from ?

Now why are you so afraid to tell us what a Muslim is? You have avoided this question for so long. For all your blustery bravado of calling me to another thread, you shy away from a very simple question. Rather strange.

unknownuser

Then we are in AGREEMENT here (suprisingly enough! )

QURAN IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

So why is Mr. Edip Yuksel saying Quran promotes DEMOCRACY?

I don't know. Long time ago, Mr Yuksel rightly told me to make my own opinions about Islam. Now im saying the same thing to you. If you have a problem with my opinions, don't tell me Mr so and so said so and so.

Well if Quran is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC then it has serious implications for all the Quran Alone believers that live in democratic societies around the world - does it not?

I think that is the question that needs to be addressed!

This shows that you have no mind of your own. Opine for yourself and bring your opinions forward.

Says the guy who does not trust his own REASON!
As for my opinions I think I have made it clear to you in countless threads.

Did I project such sophistication to you?
You make me smile

What does the word 'FACADE' mean ?

Yes, even FACADE of sophistication.
I am amused that I could do that to you! -)

And where does the word 'dhimmi' come from ?

Now why are you so afraid to tell us what a Muslim is?

This thread is about democracy and the Quran. Keep to the theme of the thread.

For all your blustery bravado of calling me to another thread, you shy away from a very simple question. Rather strange.

Hey you had your chances. You did not respond to that thread.
Little Anwar and kindly Leyla came and spoke on your behalf. Nice of them. Why did you hide.

But I say lets not go personal.

The Real issue on this thread is DEMOCRACY and the QURAN!
How do you reconcile the two?

Regards,

Jaxal

SaLaM LT and mquran

Just becoz it dont mention in the Qruan, dont mean Quran is anti-democratic. roll

mquran

Well if Quran is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC then it has serious implications for all the Quran Alone believers that live in democratic societies around the world - does it not?

I think that is the question that needs to be addressed!

Why would it? In a 'democracy' (not that the UK and USA are democracies) everyone has a right to vote or not to vote. I don't vote.

Says the guy who does not trust his own REASON!
As for my opinions I think I have made it clear to you in countless threads.

False. I said I trust the quran over my reasoning. Just like you trust books you never read over yours.

This thread is about democracy and the Quran. Keep to the theme of the thread.

Duly noted. Here's the thread where you criticised the quran and where I posed the question before. Lets see if you'll answer the question there

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4061

After all, that thread's all about that.

Hey you had your chances. You did not respond to that thread.
Little Anwar and kindly Leyla came and spoke on your behalf. Nice of them. Why did you hide.

But I say lets not go personal.

I didn't know I was being called for as I was away. As for going 'personal', I think its quite cheeky that its coming from you who actually NAMES threads after people.

The Real issue on this thread is DEMOCRACY and the QURAN!
How do you reconcile the two?

Why should I reconcile the two , for a start?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Jaxal,

Just becoz it dont mention in the Qruan, dont mean Quran is anti-democratic

Democracy is obviously not mentioned in Al-quraan. However, what we can do here is deconstruct the meaning of democracy in normative usage.

Democracy simply means power of the people. In 'democracies' ALL legislative power belongs to the people. People can formulate laws over and above God's laws. This is how it is in the world.

Al-Quraan on the other commands a body of laws called 'al-ahkaam' (sing. hukm) . These laws are not up for negotiation as it would be shirik/associators to accept other legislators.

So yes, I would say Al-quraan is anti-democratic.