New reading of V 6:145

unknownuser

Peace Marie,

Marie, would you please care to clarify some of my concerns below

The pig does not weigh in or carry the notion that it?s meat is rijsun by it?s very nature/creation/origin for the simple, natural, scientific and logical reasons but ?ill-seeming? certainly does in any case. The same is true when speaking of ALL CARRION, ALL BLOOD AND ALL MEAT DEDICATED TO OTHER THAN GOD. Neither carrion nor blood nor meat is specific to anything.
Could you present some valid proofs that people have gotten sick or died because of eating specifically pig?s meat which is allegedly deemed rijsun by the orthodox, and I?ll present dozen factual events which will prove that thousands have gotten sick and even died because of consuming blood or ill-seeming/bad/rotten meat for which the verse explicitly refrains us from.
The verses being grammatically correct must significantly bear logical reasoning, how the entire verse is understood, what message it reveals and in correlation to other verses, as clearly and most reasonably presented by PB. Khinzeer to mean pig is insignificant.
More importantly, Khinzeer is an adjective and has several other derivatives which I?m sure you are aware of. Pig is a noun specific to an animal and has no derivatives of itself. Thus, khinzeer can only mean ill-seeming and other related adjectives such as bad, rotten, unsound, putrid, etc. Can you present a summary on all derivatives of khinzeer along with their meanings?
?any food? (meaning all) in verse 6145 is not specific to anything not being restricted and is directly related to blood, carrion and ill-seeming meat, all of which are restricted and not specific to anything either.
Replacing the word ?pig? with ?ill-seeming? (bold and underlined below) has no negative bearings whatsoever and in fact properly understood when measured against its overall context

My post is about the word "RIJSUN" which is usually attributed to the meat of pig.

Just before the word "RIJSUN", there is the article fa-innahu which is usually translated as "for it is.." . Grammatically, This article refers to something in a singular form.

According my understanding, this article refers to the food which is prohibited.
The adjectrive used in the arabic text to say prohibited is "muharraman". This adjective is in a singular form which implies the prohibited food for one eater to eat (muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu) Carrion (dead meat) OR running blood OR the ill-seeming meat.

The prohibited food which is "RIJSUN" /not pure for one eater is Carrion (dead meat) OR running blood OR the ill-seeming meat. Each of them is "RIJSUN" /not pure for one eater.

Let us note that the article "OR" which is the equivalent of "AW" in arabic is ommited from the usual translation. Praise to the God, each detail is very important for a better understanding.

6145 Say, "I do not find in the Revelation given to me, any food that is prohibited for one eater who wishes to eat except Carrion (dead meat) OR running blood as against organ meats OR the ill-seeming meat, this "food" is disapproved/not pure, or anything (not just meat) which, in disobedience, has been dedicated to other than Allah.? If one is forced by dire need without being deliberate and without transgressing, your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (2173), (53).

Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan AW daman masfoohan AW lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun

Hope to hear from you and please be specific to my points.
Regards and GOD bless.

Jaxal

SaLaM Danish

Why are you overlooking the most obvious? I will repeat myself. Why would God forbid us from eating something that is OBVIOUSLY harmful and even fatal to us? Thats like God forbiding us to eat poison or hemlock. Reading and understanding the Quran requires common sense too. And its common sense NOT to eat ill-seeming food. Wouldnt you say?

marie

Peace Danish,

The pig does not weigh in or carry the notion that its meat is rijsun by its very nature/creation/origin for the simple, natural, scientific and logical reasons

As I already stated in my previous posts, according my understanding, 6145 doesn't tell us that the meat of pig is rijs but to eat it is rijsun/not completely pure/healthy for the eater in the same way for deed meat and blood.
For me the meat of pig is rijs and to eat is rijs for the eater are not the same thing. This why I have created a new thread to expose the "new reading of V6145 )

I hope I was clear when I have said

It is obvious that the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world but to eat them are not completely pure/healthy/good for one eater. The God wishes to purify us completely

You wrote

but ill-seeming certainly is rijsun by its very nature/creation/origin for the simple, natural, scientific and logical reason. The same is true when speaking of ALL CARRION, ALL BLOOD AND ALL MEAT DEDICATED TO OTHER THAN GOD.

As I said above both the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world.They adid not die. You can only for "ill-seeming meat"and by the salme way rotted fruit and vegetables.
In France people eat a sausage fabricated with blood/black pudding
The God forbad ALL MEAT DEDICATED TO OTHER THAN GOD for not the same reason i.e. physical health than dede meat, blood and the meat of pigroll

You are right when you wrote

carrion nor blood nor meat is specific to anything.

But that doesn't imply that "lahma alkhinzeer" is specific to anything. Now you invent a rule how to understand according your way roll
For example when the God uses this allegory and says that some people "behaves like apes and pigs (560)", you cannot reason in the same way , let us suppose that alkhanazeer/the pigs is not a noun, can you say that alqiradat/the apes is also specific to anything roll

There are several examples in the Reading

7133.So We sent them the flood, and the locust, and the lice, and the frogs, and the blood; all detailed signs; but they turned arrogant, they were a criminal people.

In 7133 blood is specific to anything can you deduce that the locust, and the lice, and the frogs are specific to anything roll

Could you present some valid proofs that people have gotten sick or died because of eating specifically pigs meat which is allegedly deemed rijsun by the orthodox,

This is the same ansswer

It is obvious that the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world but to eat them are not completely pure/healthy/good for one eater. The God wishes to purify us completely

In 6145 is a deeper wisdom about the prohibition othe dead meat, blood and meat of pig whatever the meat of pig and blood are edible in the world.
GW, you will understand this wisdom.

Fell free to consider them as a food which are completely pure/healthy/good for one eater.

The verses being grammatically correct must significantly bear logical reasoning, how the entire verse is understood, what message it reveals and in correlation to other verses, as clearly and most reasonably presented by PB. Khinzeer to mean pig is insignificant.

I respect your view but I don't share it. I don't wish to repeat the arguments which I had already presented in the other thred"is swine halal"

More importantly, Khinzeer is an adjective and has several other derivatives which Im sure you are aware of. Pig is a noun specific to an animal and has no derivatives of itself. Thus, khinzeer can only mean ill-seeming and other related adjectives such as bad, rotten, unsound, putrid, etc. Can you present a summary on all derivatives of khinzeer along with their meanings?

Ity is not easy for me to translate you all meanings of this word from my arabic-arabic dictionnary because of my weak english and I spend much time to write a message in english.
But you can ask brother whakas if he can scan the information for you from his lexicon.

any food (meaning all) in verse 6145 is not specific to anything not being restricted and is directly related to blood, carrion and ill-seeming meat, all of which are restricted and not specific to anything either.

Wrong reasoning, see my answer above.

Replacing the word pig with ill-seeming (bold and underlined below) has no negative bearings whatsoever and in fact properly understood when measured against its overall context

Not based on valid argument but human misinterpretation which creates conradictions in side the Reading.
Don't substite the God's word without knowledge, you over-estimate your rationality.

May the God improve our understanding and knowledge.

Salam

savage_carrot

Peace sis Marie,

As I said above both the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world. Then you cannot put in the same bag "ill-seeming" and "blood". In France people eat a sausage fabricated with blood

Yes, I think that's similar to the UK's black pudding...disgusting stuff that is lol The other thing I thought of was about dead meat. While watching a cooking show, this lady was talking about how you should tap the mussels before putting them in hot water to cook them, just to find out if it's alive or not. She said you could eat it but you have no idea about how long it's been dead. All these restrictions are something that are not obviously 'bad' for one...but 'can' be in certain situations (long term consumption maybe in some cases?!?). Like Jaxal pointed out and so have others in the other thread, it makes no sense to forbid something that is obviously bad and no one would normally eat it anyway . There is no logic to that.

Nadia

unknownuser

PEACE, MARIE, S. CARROT, JM,

Just to add that Carrion (dead meat) OR running blood OR the flesh of swine are not themselves "RIJSUN" but to eat them is rijsun for the eater. Even if they do not harm health, to eat them is not pure/good for the eater...This is the use or the consumption of intoxicants, gambling, altars, arrows of chance, Carrion (dead meat), running blood, the flesh of swine, idols.. which involves "alrrijsun" upon those who use or consume them. The God forbade Carrion (dead meat), running blood, the flesh of swine in orther to remove "alrrijs" from us and to purify us....According my understanding the verse doesn't tell us the meat of pig is rijs but its consommation is rijsun/not pure/healthy for the eater in the same way for deed meat and blood.

Marie, you and the others must stop using lahma khinzerin as if means the flesh of pig. This notion was totally and completely refuted by the explanation of ayat 6146 on the "Is Swine Halal", thread. Now, I both agree and disagree with you about the use of rijsun in ayat 6145, meaing, not only are carrion, running blood, ill-seeming flesh (whether that flesh is meat or produce), and things dedicated to other than Allah, in and of themselves rijusun (because they represent states/conditions of things which can harm the individual), but also render the eater rijsun for using them contrary to the guidance not to, except, if used for other than survival. To translate rijsun to only mean the what happens to the eater and not the thing itself as well, is a distortion of the ayat.

Looking forward to your reply.

unknownuser

Salaams All,

Nadia said? it makes no sense to forbid something that is obviously bad and no one would normally eat it anyway. There is no logic to that. "

Dear sister, Did you know a mullah here in Birmingham was caught making kebabs out of cat food - the dustbin men found more and more empty cans every week so they informed the environmental health people e.t.c

Similarly believe some people will feed you many things if they somehow benefit from it.

And I have personally witnessed some people in Pakistan - not Muslim however take parts of dead animals to eat, even though they weren?t dying or anything.

And something else a Disease mentioned in the Ayah 53 called Khonica - or something it?s when animals and even chickens get they start to suffocate - if I remember it correctly, and start dying but people in Pakistan call the Butcher and slaughter the Animal and sell it off quickly.

I found there are a lot of diseases mentioned in the quran but the poor suds have changed them into falling from a height or strangling or beating somthing to death e.t.c

God be with you.

marie

Peace PB,

Just to add that Carrion (dead meat) OR running blood OR the flesh of swine are not themselves "RIJSUN" but to eat them is rijsun for the eater.

I don't trust any traditional translation about how I should to read 6145. For the moment, it seems the right reading for me. The God knows the best

Marie, you and the others must stop using lahma khinzerin as if means the flesh of pig.

What you understand doesn't matter. Our gaol is to share and confront our understanding not to impose our view.
With much humility, we can make the right reading of the Reading.

This notion was totally and completely refuted by the explanation of ayat 6146 on the "Is Swine Halal", thread.

Let me rectify your statement, since you don't hold the absolute truth, it is more humble and careful to say

This notion was totally and completely refuted by my explanation of ayat 6146 on the "Is Swine Halal", thread.

Now, I both agree and disagree with you about the use of rijsun in ayat 6145, meaing, not only are carrion, running blood, ill-seeming flesh (whether that flesh is meat or produce), and things dedicated to other than Allah, in and of themselves rijusun (because they represent states/conditions of things which can harm the individual), but also render the eater rijsun for using them contrary to the guidance not to, except, if used for other than survival. To translate rijsun to only mean the what happens to the eater and not the thing itself as well, is a distortion of the ayat.

You should take some time for a better understanding of my explanation about the connection between rijsun and the eater.

You wrote

not only are carrion, running blood, ill-seeming flesh (whether that flesh is meat or produce), and things dedicated to other than Allah, in and of themselves rijusun

If rijusun refers to carrion, running blood and the meat of pig, we should read "fainnahum rijsun" instead of "fainnahu rijsun"

like in 995

995.They will swear by God to you, when you return to them, so that you would let them be. So let them be, for they are foul, and their destiny is Hell as a recompense for what they earned.

Sayahlifoona biAllahilakum itha inqalabtum ilayhim lituAAridoo AAanhumfaaAAridoo AAanhum innahum rijsun wama/wahumjahannamu jazaan bima kanoo yaksiboona

innahu is an article which refers to something in a singular form (hu)
innahum refers to something in a plural form (hum) form.

I hope you realize now how it is primordial to make the right reading of the Reading.

Can I ask you a question

Do you read arabic?

Salam

savage_carrot

Peace mz,

Dear sister, Did you know a mullah here in Birmingham was caught making kebabs out of cat food - the dustbin men found more and more empty cans every week so they informed the environmental health people e.t.c

Dear brother, the question to ask is, did the guy know he was doing something wrong and is that why he was doing it secretly without informing the people of what he was doing? Did he advertise/tell the public of his amazing cat food kebabs, a festival of flavour?

Similarly believe some people will feed you many things if they somehow benefit from it.

They will do it regardless of whether it is right OR wrong...

And I have personally witnessed some people in Pakistan - not Muslim however take parts of dead animals to eat, even though they weren?t dying or anything.

Eh? Oh you mean the people were not dying? It's already written dead meat is off... If they read the quran, then they would know thats not on...thats exactly why the non obvious things are written which won't KILL you right away. You won't find God forbidding you from eating/drinking 'hemlock' as JM put it. Which is why the majority of people will NOT eat something that looks bad OR is bad either under normal circumstances.

And something else a Disease mentioned in the Ayah 53 called Khonica - or something it?s when animals and even chickens get they start to suffocate - if I remember it correctly, and start dying but people in Pakistan call the Butcher and slaughter the Animal and sell it off quickly.

Once again, it's mentioned in the quran and it's not something OBVIOUS like POISON. Ask anyone who knows what bleach is and if they would drink it (anyone not suffering from a mental illness). Secondly, this is all done in the majority of cases deliberately, if its done with no knowledge then people should be informed of the facts and what is in the quran. Every person should be told that slaughtering animals with a disease may be harmful for consumption, this is common knowledge and people should be made aware of it, anyone can come to that conclusion...if they overlook it then it's on their head. God doesn't need to tell you that BAD meat is BAD, because it is BAD as we can see or know...What He does need to tell people is even if they don't have knowledge of why now and they read the quran, they don't do it because it is not completely pure for the eater. That would include possible harmful effects, unethical treatment of animals, a general consciousness of proper diet etc

I found there are a lot of diseases mentioned in the quran but the poor suds have changed them into falling from a height or strangling or beating somthing to death e.t.c

Right. I find some of them have to do with the ethical treatment of animals. I wouldn't eat from a slaughterhouse that deals with animals in such a brutal fashion...tell me is there really a disease that makes animals fall from a height? Like lemmings?

In reality a lot of these observations in the quran can be got to by people not ever having read it...it's just easier reading it in a book for many people and after having spent much time and effort in analyzing it, we can understand why they are there. We will each have our different opinions...God knows best.

Nadia

wildguest1956

THis is not a scientific explanation, nevertheless ambiguous.

The authors of this study are scientists, graduates scholars in psychology.
Do you have enough knowledge in psychology to reject this explanation so promptly ?

I am not claiming that this study is necessarily devoid of errors ; I just think it should deserve more consideration.

And what about intoxicants...it is also lies in morality?

Yes, something like that.
The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact-method. Will you be deterred?

lahm/meat and shahm/fat are used distinctly in the Reading. When the God means all the body all the body of the animal, He doesn't specify any part of it (meat, fat in different pat of the body, blood..). The language is concise.

PS I don't check the meaning of lahm in all dictionnaries

According to the dictionaries, "flesh" includes muscles and fat ; and don't include blood and bones.

flesh = the soft tissue of the body of a vertebrate mainly muscle tissue and fat

http//www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=flesh

The word "flesh" is the most used word to translate lahm. Is it a bad translation ?

and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh.

And no fat ?

O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

Would you enjoy eating the fat of your dead brother ?

Another point (from QXP)

He has forbidden you dead meat (carrion), and blood, and swineflesh, and anything (not just meat) that has been dedicated to other than Allah (be it a person, an idol or a tomb 53.) But if one is forced by necessity, neither intending disobedience, nor exceeding, it will not be a violation that hurts his personality. Behold, Allah is the Eternal Source of Forgiveness and Mercy.

http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf

Have you reflected on the word ithm ?

Peace

Jaxal

SaLaM my misguided brother PRIEST

Marie, you and the others must stop using lahma khinzerin as if means the flesh of pig. This notion was totally and completely refuted by the explanation of ayat 6146 on the "Is Swine Halal", thread

Right roll . looooooooooollllll. So far, not your or danish or joe or anyone has been able to prove that Lahma Khanzeer means ANYTHING other than Flesh of the pig

marie

Salam JM,

THis is not a scientific explanation, nevertheless ambiguous.

The authors of this study are scientists, graduates scholars in psychology.
Do you have enough knowledge in psychology to reject this explanation so promptly?

I don't share His explanation because I don't find arguments from the Reading which support his analysis. Only the God knows if he is right or wrong.

I am not claiming that this study is necessarily devoid of errors ; I just think it should deserve more consideration.

You are right.

And what about intoxicants...it is also lies in morality?

Yes, something like that.
The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact-method. Will you be deterred?

You are correct when you said intoxicants is lies in morality.
I think this is not the only reason. From 591, intoxicants hinders from being conscious of Allah and following the Divine System. We can see the consequences of intoxicants in our current society. Those who misuse, they are not aware and arn't able to keep their duty.

In 593, The God repeats 3 times about those who have believed and do works fruitful to the society, bear no guilt for what and how they eat and drink and partake if they are aware/keep their duty.

There is no sin upon those who believe and do good works for what they eat if they are aware and believe and do good work, then they are aware and believe, then they are aware and do good; God loves the good doers.

lahm/meat and shahm/fat are used distinctly in the Reading. When the God means all the body all the body of the animal, He doesn't specify any part of it (meat, fat in different pat of the body, blood..). The language is concise.

PS I don't check the meaning of lahm in all dictionnaries

According to the dictionaries, "flesh" includes muscles and fat ; and don't include blood and bones.

Maybe I'm wrong but if the God also prohibited the fat of the pig, He doesn't specify it like in 6146 (the fat of the cattle and the sheep).
I have verified lahm in my arabic-arabic dictionary, I understand that lahm and shahm/fat are two distinct things. Of course, the fat can be mixeed with lahm.

flesh = the soft tissue of the body of a vertebrate mainly muscle tissue and fat

http//www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=flesh

The word "flesh" is the most used word to translate lahm. Is it a bad translation ?

According my understanding of lahm in arabic, lahma is lahm and shahm is shahm and is specific word for each word.

and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh.

And no fat ?

That doesn't proove that lahm = lahm +shahm. I think The God speaks about Lahm because it is the principal component which cover the bones all details about this processus are not provided in this verse.

In 4912 lahm is allegorical. Without Lahm on the bone, our body looks like death alive.

O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

Would you enjoy eating the fat of your dead brother ?

Another point (from QXP)

He has forbidden you dead meat (carrion), and blood, and swineflesh, and anything (not just meat) that has been dedicated to other than Allah (be it a person, an idol or a tomb 53.) But if one is forced by necessity, neither intending disobedience, nor exceeding, it will not be a violation that hurts his personality. Behold, Allah is the Eternal Source of Forgiveness and Mercy.

http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf

Have you reflected on the word ithm ?

I understandf "ithm" in 2173 as one doesn't make any violation of dietry prohibitions. One doen't support any charge by eating these prohibited food if one is forced by necessity.

Salam

unknownuser

MARIE,

lahm/meat and shahm/fat are used distinctly in the Reading. When the God means all the body of the animal, He doesn't specify any part of it (meat, fat in different pat of the body, blood..). The language is concise...Maybe I'm wrong but if the God also prohibited the fat of the pig, He doesn't specify it like in 6146 (the fat of the cattle and the sheep). I have verified lahm in my arabic-arabic dictionary, I understand that lahm and shahm/fat are two distinct things. Of course, the fat can be mixeed with lahm.

I agree. Allah, knows how to choose His Words and lahm and shahm, are two distinct terms. Allah, per ayat 6146, decreed an entire category of animals whose bodies in total, that is, all the parts of their body, those with claws, haram to the Jews.

That doesn't proove that lahm = lahm +shahm. I think The God speaks about Lahm because it is the principal component which cover the bones all details about this processus are not provided in this verse.

I agree again. Lahm/flesh, then, does not include for examples the pig's liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brains, and lard/fat, hence, they are halal to eat. Now, the rational mind must ask, what is it about the lahm/flesh of pig, exactly, that makes it rijsun and haram for the eater to eat, whereas, the other parts, especially the intestines for example, is not? How can the flesh be more of a problem, then say, the intestines? I think we can all agree that the intestines as opposed to the flesh, is much more filthy. To reply with...Allah knows best, is to blindly follow and Allah condemns this.

unknownuser

Peace Marie,

The pig does not weigh in or carry the notion that it?s meat is rijsun by it?s very nature/creation/origin for the simple, natural, scientific and logical reasons

As I already stated in my previous posts, according my understanding, 6145 doesn't tell us that the meat of pig is rijs but to eat it is rijsun/not completely pure/healthy for the eater in the same way for deed meat and blood.

For me the meat of pig is rijs and to eat is rijs for the eater are not the same thing. This why I have created a new thread to expose the "new reading of V6145

Your statement that the verse 6145 doesn?t tell you that the meat of pig is rijsun but to eat it is rijsun, and then for YOU, both of them are rijsun yet they are not the same in similarity to dead meat and blood, is not only self-contradictory but plain gibberish/confusion.

I hope I was clear when I have said
marie wrote
It is quite obvious that the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world but to eat them are not completely pure/healthy/good for one eater. The God wishes to purify us completely

What do you mean by ?completely pure?, Marie? If you wouldn?t have known about the ?mad cow disease?, would the beef be considered as completely pure? How do you know that the each time you visit a grocer, the chicken, beef, turkey, lamb and all that you eat is completely pure? LOL!! You sound really funny when you bring about such notions as ?completely pure?.

It is quite evident that meat of pig (just like chicken, beef, lamb, turkey, etc.), is edible because millions (perhaps billions) eat it without any consequences (FDA tested and approved) and is readily available along with other produce and byproducts. Blood is NOT an entr?e and one cannot go about asking for a glass of blood for a drink or two. It is not a food or a drink by nature on its own and has never been. Blood also carries moral and ethical values, besides medical reasons. Transfusion of blood among humans is a survival issue and is performed under strict guidelines and controlled environment. There?s absolutely nothing written in the Quran that goes against its own natural laws and system. The pig?s meat being rijsun by its very nature goes against Quranic Law and System simply because there?s no evidence nor certainty that every and all pig?s meat in our entire world is rijsun and poeple getting seriously ill or dying because of it, while ill-seeming meat, dead meat, carrion, gouged/extorted meat of any kind does not go against GOD?s system.

You are right when you wrote
Quote
carrion nor blood nor meat is specific to anything.
But that doesn't imply that "lahma alkhinzeer" is specific to anything. Now you invent a rule how to understand according your way
For example when the God uses this allegory and says that some people "behaves like apes and pigs (560)", you cannot reason in the same way , let us suppose that alkhanazeer/the pigs is not a noun, can you say that alqiradat/the apes is also specific to anything

Humans and apes have a common ancestry/link/kin, not pigs. The verse talks about qirada (clumsy) and khinzeer (ill-seeming) as behavior patterns, not food. Khinzeer does imply that it is not specific to any animal, as is the case with blood, dead meat, carrion and meat dedicated to other than GOD, otherwise all restrictions must also be case sensitive, which is not. Khinzeer doesn?t mean pig but ill-seeming, clearly and evidently because pig?s meat is NOT rijsun by nature but ill-seeming meat IS and thus the restriction.

Can you point out any verse mentioning anything in the entire Quran that is specific to anything at all for which we must do or don?t relative to our ways of current lives?

Quote
2. Could you present some valid proofs that people have gotten sick or died because of eating specifically pig?s meat which is allegedly deemed rijsun by the orthodox,

This is the same ansswer
marie wrote
It is obvious that the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world but to eat them are not completely pure/healthy/good for one eater. The God wishes to purify us completely

In 6145 is a deeper wisdom about the prohibition othe dead meat, blood and meat of pig whatever the meat of pig and blood are edible in the world.
GW, you will understand this wisdom.

Fell free to consider them as a food which are completely pure/healthy/good for one eater.

Since you obviously didn?t understand my question properly, let me throw some questions at you in this way

a) How do you know whether any meat is completely pure or not, let alone pig?s meat?
b) Why is pig?s meat rijsun and what dire consequences, if any, has the pig meat brought about upon millions and millions of people who eat it day-in and day-out from children to adults for centuries?
c) Why do IFDA (International Food and Drug Associations) throughout the world, knowingly, test and approve of such rijsun meat?
d) Have you personally known for a fact that French people in your own country get seriously ill or die because of pig meat?
e) Have you studied the links I posted on another thread in reference to the animal pig?
f) Have you read and understood the links Tanveer posted on inconclusive and unproven theoretically based scientific assertions by Hislamic mindset?
g) What knowledge do YOU collectively have from questions above by which you deduce Quranic injunctions to produce your arguments with, other than, grammatical understanding and just because GOD said so.

Wisdom comes from ones? ability to discern (common sense) by what is given in life/nature and then written in books, not the other way around. Pig?s meat is NOT rijsun by way of life/nature and hence it cannot be written as such. By natural observance, people (millions perhaps in billions) just don?t get sick or die from eating pig?s meat but can and do get sick or die from eating ill-seeming meat regardless of which animal, including pig. This is common sense or wisdom which you will, GW, understand.

Isn?t reality/natural-signs/events/circumstances in life of extreme importance to you and some others here by which the Quran emphasizes to reflect upon to guide us and that is why the Quran is written? What role does pig?s meat play in reality relevant to Quran?

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3. The verses being grammatically correct must significantly bear logical reasoning, how the entire verse is understood, what message it reveals and in correlation to other verses, as clearly and most reasonably presented by PB. Khinzeer to mean pig is insignificant.

I respect your view but I don't share it. I don't wish to repeat the arguments which I had already presented in the other thred"is swine halal"

It is not my view but a fact, and if you don?t reason and understand logically,then there is no argument as to what anything means to you regardless of grammar. You shouldn?t have repeated your connotations to start this thread again without knowing what?s up for grabs.

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4. More importantly, Khinzeer is an adjective and has several other derivatives which I?m sure you are aware of. Pig is a noun specific to an animal and has no derivatives of itself. Thus, khinzeer can only mean ill-seeming and other related adjectives such as bad, rotten, unsound, putrid, etc. Can you present a summary on all derivatives of khinzeer along with their meanings?

Ity is not easy for me to translate you all meanings of this word from my arabic-arabic dictionnary because of my weak english and I spend much time to write a message in english.

But you can ask brother whakas if he can scan the information for you from his lexicon.

You don?t share the facts above and then give excuses. Come on, Marie, you can't be that insecured. You seem to have shown quite an expression and well time spent explaining other words and phrases of the Quran on some instances throughout this forum, such as on ?salat? issue. Why this backlash on khinzeer? If your Arabic dictionary that you use for reference don?t provide enough guidance, then clearly your arguments are weak and doubtful.

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5. ?any food? (meaning all) in verse 6145 is not specific to anything not being restricted and is directly related to blood, carrion and ill-seeming meat, all of which are restricted and not specific to anything either.

Wrong reasoning, see my answer above.

Not wrong reasoning but valid composition and related mutually inclusive reasoning which you misunderstood entirely.

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6. Replacing the word ?pig? with ?ill-seeming? (bold and underlined below) has no negative bearings whatsoever and in fact properly understood when measured against its overall context

Not based on valid argument but human misinterpretation which creates conradictions in side the Reading.

Surely your interpretation isn?t a godly one either!!! My rationality/understanding, for whatever is written in Quran or any book, comes from understanding its overall message consistency and cohesion vis-?-vis reality check (valid arguments), not dependent by grammar checks. Dwelling blindfolded within the scripture and by the scripture without reflecting and reasoning outside of it, is irrational and ignorant (the Hislamic Way). What is mentioned in the Quran must be REAL in nature, else the message and living our lives becomes meaningless. Pig?s meat being rijsun is not REAL in nature but ill-seeming meat IS and always will, with or without yours or anyone?s grammatical fondling, hence it?s a misinterpretation and incorrect understanding of the word khinzeer to mean pig as per the contexts of the verses and the message it conveys.

Don't substite the God's word without knowledge, you over-estimate your rationality.

I can say the same for you, more so because your rationality doesn?t exist on earth but dwells on ifs, ands, buts and grammatical issues and then end with ?GOD knows best?. Anyhow, lets not get sidetracked with personal vendetta. All those in favour of khinzeer to mean pig as per the understanding of verses therein, are baseless and have proven nothing so far. ops

unknownuser

PEACE, DANISH,

An outstanding post, as is your custom to produce, all praises due to Allah.

Tanveer, SC, Jaxal, JM, print out Danish's post and study it carefully, so that, at the very least, you might learn to discern the difference between giving opinion and presenting fact.

unknownuser

Salaams All,

PB SAID"An outstanding post"

indeed it was - Good and sound Arguments.

Peace to All.

Jaxal

SaLaM Danish

All those in favour of khinzeer to mean pig as per the understanding of verses therein, are baseless and have proven nothing so far.

Becoz you say so? rotfl . I swear the excuses i hear to eat pork. Its amazing lollllll rotfl rotfl rotfl

marie

Salam Danish

The pig does not weigh in or carry the notion that its meat is rijsun by its very nature/creation/origin for the simple, natural, scientific and logical reasons

As I already stated in my previous posts, according my understanding, 6145 doesn't tell us that the meat of pig is rijs but to eat it is rijsun/not completely pure/healthy for the eater in the same way for deed meat and blood.

For me the meat of pig is rijs and to eat is rijs for the eater are not the same thing. This why I have created a new thread to expose the "new reading of V6145

Your statement that the verse 6145 doesnt tell you that the meat of pig is rijsun but to eat it is rijsun, and then for YOU, both of them are rijsun yet they are not the same in similarity to dead meat and blood, is not only self-contradictory but plain gibberish/confusion.

Maybe my english is not clear at all, in the future please ask for more explanation before making subjective judgements.
As I already explained it to PBM, rijsun doesn't refers to deed meat, blood and teh meat of pig but refers to the eater of this prohibited food.

I hope I was clear when I have said
It is quite obvious that the meat of pig or the blood are edible in the world but to eat them are not completely pure/healthy/good for one eater. The God wishes to purify us completely

What do you mean by completely pure, Marie? If you wouldnt have known about the mad cow disease, would the beef be considered as completely pure? How do you know that the each time you visit a grocer, the chicken, beef, turkey, lamb and all that you eat is completely pure? LOL!! You sound really funny when you bring about such notions as completely pure.

Because yopu don't get what I meant
You can replace "completely pure" by "healthy/pure". Neither the consumption of blood nor the meat of the pig are fatal for us, that doesn't make them pure/healthy for us.

If you don't minf, can you answer this question, sincethe consumption of the blood and the meat pf pig are not fatal for us, how do you admit that the blood is not good/healthy for the eater but not the meat of pig?

It is quite evident that meat of pig (just like chicken, beef, lamb, turkey, etc.), is edible because millions (perhaps billions) eat it without any consequences (FDA tested and approved) and is readily available along with other produce and byproducts.

If you trust FDA, I trust only the God. FDA doesn't hold the absolute truth.
If you failed to understand that blood in the same way than the dead meat and the meat of pig are not pure/healthy for us that doesn't prove the opposite.

Blood is NOT an entr?e and one cannot go about asking for a glass of blood for a drink or two. It is not a food or a drink by nature on its own and has never been.

Just a bracket, Now you mix french and english "entr?e" lol
Blood is not drink in Europe but people eat it in black pudding...
Blood is also a drink in Africa.

Blood also carries moral and ethical values, besides medical reasons. Transfusion of blood among humans is a survival issue and is performed under strict guidelines and controlled environment.

Agree, but the blood of some animals like cow is drunk (Africa) and eaten like food (blackl pudding).

The pigs meat being rijsun by its very nature goes against Quranic Law and System simply because theres no evidence nor certainty that every and all pigs meat in our entire world is rijsun and poeple getting seriously ill or dying because of it,

Your first sentence "The pigs meat being rijsun by its very nature" is a wrong reading of the verse 6145

I wrote (see my previous post for more details)

As I already explained it to PBM, rijsun doesn't refers to deed meat, blood and the meat of pig but refers to the eater of this prohibited food.

I repeat to you my first question, since the consumption of blood and the meat of pig are not fatal for human, how do you admit that the consumption of the blood in the same way than carrion is not pure/healthy for one eater and not the meat of pig?
Is this your logic?

You are right when you wrote

carrion nor blood nor meat is specific to anything.

But that doesn't imply that "lahma alkhinzeer" is specific to anything. Now you invent a rule how to understand according your way
For example when the God uses this allegory and says that some people "behaves like apes and pigs (560)", you cannot reason in the same way , let us suppose that alkhanazeer/the pigs is not a noun, can you say that alqiradat/the apes is also specific to anything

Humans and apes have a common ancestry/link/kin, not pigs. The verse talks about qirada (clumsy) and khinzeer (ill-seeming) as behavior patterns, not food.

Nor clumsy neither ill-seeming doesn't make sense according the context.
If you don't mind , please elaborate.

The God uses allegorically some animals like apes and pigs in 560 to describe the behaviour of human. You cannot deny that they are also used by people in the same aim. Another similar example from the Reading

1And be humble in how you walk and lower your voice. For the harshest of all voices is the donkey's voice.
Waiqsid fee mashyika waoghdudmin sawtika inna ankara al-aswati lasawtu alhameeri
And the horses, and mules, and donkeys, that you may ride them and as an adornment. And He creates what you do not know.
Waalkhayla waalbighalawa alhameera litarkabooha wazeenatanwayakhluqu ma la taAAlamoona

And what about this verse 7133, Will you interpret the locust, and the lice, and the frogs them like apes and pigs in 560 and the meat of pig in 6144 because they are quoted whith the blood which is specific to anything?

7133.So We sent them the flood, and the locust, and the lice, and the frogs, and the blood; all detailed signs; but they turned arrogant, they were a criminal people.

If your Arabic dictionary that you use for reference dont provide enough guidance, then clearly your arguments are weak and doubtful.

I don't seek any guidance in any human dictionnary. The reading is sufficient for me and it is my best dictionary. Praise to the God I find all arguments from the Reading which support my understanding of 6145. If you need human explanation, then good lack.

PS Just for your information, This message takes for me more than three hours to write it evil . Believe it or not It is more difficult and not obvious to trasnslate one page or more from my arabic-arabic dictionary into english. Don't be offended if I cannot do it for you. Indeed I'm mod but not 24H/24H.

Salam

marie

Salam PB,

I agree again. Lahm/flesh, then, does not include for examples the pig's liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brains, and lard/fat, hence, they are halal to eat. Now, the rational mind must ask, what is it about the lahm/flesh of pig, exactly, that makes it rijsun and haram for the eater to eat, whereas, the other parts, especially the intestines for example, is not? How can the flesh be more of a problem, then say, the intestines? I think we can all agree that the intestines as opposed to the flesh, is much more filthy. To reply with...Allah knows best, is to blindly follow and Allah condems this.

The body and the digestive system (intestines, stomach....) are closely linked
Ponder more before making lawfull intestines, liver, the heart......

I ask you the same question than Danish, since the blood and the meat of pig are edible and not fatal for human, how do you admit that the blood in the same way than carrion are not healthy and pure for us and not the meat of pig?
I'd like to understand your logic.

Thanks in advance.

marie

Salam PB,

I agree again. Lahm/flesh, then, does not include for examples the pig's liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brains, and lard/fat, hence, they are halal to eat. Now, the rational mind must ask, what is it about the lahm/flesh of pig, exactly, that makes it rijsun and haram for the eater to eat, whereas, the other parts, especially the intestines for example, is not? How can the flesh be more of a problem, then say, the intestines? I think we can all agree that the intestines as opposed to the flesh, is much more filthy. To reply with...Allah knows best, is to blindly follow and Allah condems this.

The body and the digestive system (intestines, stomach....) are closely linked Ponder more before making lawfull intestines, liver, the heart......

"Closely linked" does not mean..."the same as", you are fudging again. As lahm is distinct from shahm, hence, are entirely different terms, likewise, hawaya (small intestines), is also a distinct term and distinct from lahm and shahm. Given these distinctions then, the intestines of the pig, as with the intestines of the ox and sheep, likewise, must be halal, in that, the intestines are not lahm.

I was not clear in my last statement, I will try to clarify it through a question to you

Can you eat liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brain or fat of a sick cow with the disease of "Croswell-Jacob" ?

Let us suppose that lahm alkhinzeer means ill-seeming meat, Does the God only forbid the meat of a sick cow with the disease of Croswell-Jacob?
It is more logic that all the body of this cow was forbiden for the consumption and not only its meat.

"I think" is not truth. Either you know what you are talking about or you don't. Ayats 733 makes it haram to speak of Allah without knowledge, meaning, having facts not opinion/"I think". In ayat 1736, Allah tells us not to follow anything of which we have no knowledge

Do you claim you hold the absolute truth about all thing? if this is not the case, according to your extreme reasoning, this forum should be closed because nor you neither any member here do not hold the absolute truth. We are here to share our understanding and we pray the God to improve our knowledge.
What you consider as a truth is only your own truth and not the absolute truth. All what you can do is to share it and confront it with other understandings/view/opinion.

Well, intestines and fat do not cover bones. Fat, as with the intestines, are full of pollutants. Why, then, isn't the fat of pig rijsun for the eater to eat?

You should refer to the study about the fat of pig and compare wit the study about the meat of pig.

Danish and I are stating that the pig is not unhealthy to eat and, given the fact that billions have been eating since time immemorial without health problems, how is it then unhealthy/unpure for human consumption?

You can say the same thing for the blood (black pudding ), that doesn't prove they are pure (100%) for one eater. You admit that the blood is not pure and you apply your reasoning only for the meat of the pig roll
Is this you infaillible logic?

On what do you base your conclusion the pig is unhealthy/unpure for the eater to eat

For the same reason than the blood
Indeed they are edible and not fatal but their consumption is not pure (100%) for the eater. How simple but difficult to understand.

Salam

marie

Salam all,

In the Reading, the words used to mean ill is marad, marda, mareed, saqeemun

O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except if travelling, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola taqraboo alssalata waantum sukarahatta taAAlamoo ma taqooloona walajunuban illa AAabiree sabeelin hattataghtasiloo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin awjaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumualnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedantayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekuminna Allaha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran

4102, 56, 991, 3332, 4817, 7320,

1. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, it only increased foulness to their foulness, and they died as rejecters.

Waamma allatheena feequloobihim maradun fazadat-hum rijsan ilarijsihim wamatoo wahum kafiroona

There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may understand.

Laysa AAala al-aAAma harajunwala AAala al-aAAraji harajun walaAAala almareedi harajun wala AAalaanfusikum an ta/kuloo min buyootikum aw buyooti aba-ikumaw buyooti ommahatikum aw buyooti ikhwanikum awbuyooti akhawatikum aw buyooti aAAmamikum awbuyooti AAammatikum aw buyooti akhwalikum awbuyooti khalatikum aw ma malaktum mafatihahuaw sadeeqikum laysa AAalaykum junahun an ta/kuloojameeAAan aw ashtatan fa-itha dakhaltum buyootanfasallimoo AAala anfusikum tahiyyatan min AAindiAllahi mubarakatan tayyibatan kathalikayubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakumtaAAqiloona

And if I am sick, He is the One who cures me.
Wa-itha maridtu fahuwayashfeeni
And he said I am ill!
Faqala innee saqeemun