Migration - The 'KEY' To A GOD Alone Society???
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Salaam People,
Peace be with you Mquran....
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what's the objective of being in the same city? What is meant to happen ultimately? I personally see the establishment of houses to be part of the Musa vs Firaun scenario.
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Is there any sort of leadership in the community? Without a messenger, I think we will not achieve the same effect.
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Is this community going to be affiliated with traditionalists? If you use islamic terms, 'muslims' will flock to you and there'll be answers to them you need to give. I want to stay away from this as much as possible.
If it's all the same to you guys, I wish not for this thread to go in the direction of interpretations and theological issues. The reason I brought this idea up is to see everyone's reactions and to see where peoples heads are at cocerning this idea. I believe seperate threads should be started for those who wish to debate about the theological issues.
GOD Willing, my position will be made clear as I attempt to explain WHY I believe we should have a community, as well as WHAT I envision a GOD Alone society to be....
I always thought that the WHY part of it should be easy.....to be in an environment that is not only conducive to the GOD Alone life-style, but to actually be in an environment that fosters and promotes it. I believe it is of the utmost importance for those of us who are raising children and wish to guide them adequately and strive to keep them from walking the paths of the majority of people all over the world. We all know that it is always much easier and more preferable to raise your children in an environment in which the majority of the people share the same sense of ethics , morals and values (and NOT necessarily the same religious/theological position).
Plain and simple, (to use a parable of some sort), if you have an asthmatic child, DO NOT attempt to raise him in a househould full of inconsiderate smokers. The asthmatic would be considered the unique case of the bunch. It is much better for him or her to be raised in a househould full of non-smokers or, at the very least, others who are considerate enough not to smoke around him or her. We as GOD Alone believers are the unique cases of our societies and it is definately better for us to be in a place where there are many, many unique cases. That way, we not only have a community life of our own, but most importantly, we can GROW and EVENTUALLY become a definate and noticable influence on our environment. THIS is the key...and THIS is how and where it all begins!! Study the case histories of the mormons and the different cultural/ethnic communities in Philly, New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. These people (Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Irish, etc) established their respective communities mainly through the process of migration.
Now as far as WHAT I believe a GOD Alone community to be, that's fairly simple. For me, a GOD Alone society is one which is the opposite of society today. Today's society is immoral, crooked, corrupt, dishonest, uncaring, dangerous, greedy, selfish, decadent and down right ignorant. To me, a GOD Alone society is the Complete Opposite of these things.
One thing I feel as though that I must stress....To me, a GOD Alone society is not one in which everyone thinks the same and has the same views ad interpretations!! YOU know, the robotic, cult-like zombie minded community with a "Religious Overseer/Enforcer" watching over everyone. If I wanted that kind of living, I can migrate to Saudi Arabia.
Listen, only GOD can guide and GOD is the teacher of His Book. It is absolutely pointless to waste our time debating about the same things over and over and over again and again. This is why we don't have a society now. Do you think everyone in the Jewish community in New York city think exactly alike and see everything alike?? Do you think the Chinese of Chinatown in San Francisco think and see everything exactly alike?? Do you think the Cuban community in Miami think and see everything exactly alike?? I can tell you now that they don't.....it's not going to happen!! No way, no how. We are all our own individuals and because of that, we will never, I repeat, NEVER think exactly alike and interpret The Quran exactly alike.
So if the people of the above named communities do not and will not ever think exactly alike, how did they manage to successfully establish their own commuities?
THEY DID IT BY FOCUSING ON WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT AND THAT IS TO HAVE A PLACE THAT THEY CAN CALL THEIR OWN HOME!!
And this is exactly what we must emulate if we are to get the motions going in that direction. For those of you who think that we have to establish a universal or general consesus of theological issues before we attempt this strategy, I can guarantee you that you are approaching this thing entirely the wrong way. I can point out almost a million things wrong with that position.
So, if a GOD Alone society isn't one in which everyone in it has the exact same spiritual/theological views, then what is it? What is it about a GOD Alone society that sets it apart from any other society?
To me, a GOD Alone society is one where the people strive hard to 'aata-uz-zakaa' to contribute towards the betterment/purification of the society they are in as well as to purify/better themselves. This is done through the righteous works that GOD always speaks about and by being examples of morals, ethics and GOD-conciousness.
That's it in a very brief nutshell.
Peace,
Damon. -
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Peace Damon,
And this is exactly what we must emulate if we are to get the motions going in that direction. For those of you who think that we have to establish a universal or general consesus of theological issues before we attempt this strategy, I can guarantee you that you are approaching this thing entirely the wrong way. I can point out almost a million things wrong with that position.
I agree with you. We must unite under a common cause. Migration though would be difficult for many but is a good concept to have that could be worked out sucessfully. Many small communties have by virtue of sticking together for their own and it has worked remerkably well. An example would be the Memon community in the US...I would be very interested in seeing this start and prosper. It's a worthwhile endeavour. Have you a place in mind yet? Go for Boston!!! D
Best wishes,
Nadia -
Salaam all,
i don't think i agree. As much as i would like having you guys around me, being spread all over the world is just fine.
One of the reasons even though i for sure am not the super-muslima that i would like to be, thanks to my discussions with people around me - here in a traditionnal sunni society - many really started seeing new possibilities and began to question what they used to accept blindly before.
And i don't think we're fundamentally different from other human beings. I agree when you say that there needn't be a religious - theological consensus. But that's the first thing we would start looking for if we joined. Just thinking of some very hot discussions that have already taken place on this site roll
May be i'm just too individualistic though...
Elke
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Peace Elke,
agree when you say that there needn't be a religious - theological consensus. But that's the first thing we would start looking for if we joined. Just thinking of some very hot discussions that have already taken place on this site
That bit is true though...we would definitely start going through the same cycles. There are also definite benefits of having people who are somewhat on the same level in a community though. I don't know how we can ever avoid the consensus issue...it might have quite an impact on any community with people dividing into what they think is the right interpretation and thus we'll be back where we started. Pessimistic thinking I know, but it's realistically where it will probably go. Maybe it's also an idea trying to find like minded people in existing communities?!? Also difficult but possible and what we are doing now I guess...
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Salaam all,
I have often think about this about creating an own community for God Alone Quran Alone people.
But in the same time I feel afraid of that it will be taken as a sect.
But I don't know, I will be around you folks.I love ya all.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM My Lovely Lovely sis
You know, in the end of the day, i dont really care if the worlds thinks i am from a sect called "Quran Alone" . This only shows their stupidity. Maybe, who knows, one day so many people will be guided by God that we wont have to move anywhere becoz they will be in our own neighbour hood. )
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Salaamun alaikum Damon,
To me, a GOD Alone society is one where the people strive hard to 'aata-uz-zakaa' to contribute towards the betterment/purification of the society they are in as well as to purify/better themselves. This is done through the righteous works that GOD always speaks about and by being examples of morals, ethics and GOD-conciousness.
The above statement I feel sums up your point. This is the general uniformity you seek, that of the rendering of evolution/growth of the community. I fully agree with you except for one thing. The association of ad-deen (ikhwaanu fee ad-deen, 9/11) is defined as those who keep returning (taboo) who establish commitments (iqaamu as-salaat) AND rendering growth (itaau az-zakaat). So brother, you need to include these other elements as well.
Comparisons with other migrant communities make only partial sense because you have to remember, these other communities immigrate for the purpose of economic gain. A muslim community needs its purpose from the book. It cannot remain stagnant because its nature is to evolve and will eventually spread the unbrella of islam about.
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Hello All,
Sometimes the naievety of some people amazes me! -)
Well I wish you all the best to all you Koran Alone Believers. I suggest a far away Island. Some where near the Bermuda Triangle, so that no one can find you. I will surely miss some of you. But in time I will get used to it. I will stay behind with my Atheists, My buddhist, My Christians, My Sikhs, My Jains, My Hindoos, and those nice Traditionalist Muslims too etc. for My "GOD" is everywhere and within every individual.
Regards,
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Hello All,
Sometimes the naievety of some people amazes me! -)
Well I wish you all the best to all you Koran Alone Believers. I suggest a far away Island. Some where near the Bermuda Triangle, so that no one can find you. I will surely miss some of you. But in time I will get used to it. I will stay behind with my Atheists, My buddhist, My Christians, My Sikhs, My Jains, My Hindoos, and those nice Traditionalist Muslims too etc. for My "GOD" is everywhere and within every individual.
Regards,
Did Damon even mention "Koran alone believers"? Perhaps you should read his real view before speculating that his idea is simultaneous to a cult wanting to establish their own dictatorship, like the Mormons or somethin, your idiotic generalizations are almost comical at times
Salaam People,
Peace be with you Mquran....
-
what's the objective of being in the same city? What is meant to happen ultimately? I personally see the establishment of houses to be part of the Musa vs Firaun scenario.
-
Is there any sort of leadership in the community? Without a messenger, I think we will not achieve the same effect.
-
Is this community going to be affiliated with traditionalists? If you use islamic terms, 'muslims' will flock to you and there'll be answers to them you need to give. I want to stay away from this as much as possible.
If it's all the same to you guys, I wish not for this thread to go in the direction of interpretations and theological issues. The reason I brought this idea up is to see everyone's reactions and to see where peoples heads are at cocerning this idea. I believe seperate threads should be started for those who wish to debate about the theological issues.
GOD Willing, my position will be made clear as I attempt to explain WHY I believe we should have a community, as well as WHAT I envision a GOD Alone society to be....
I always thought that the WHY part of it should be easy.....to be in an environment that is not only conducive to the GOD Alone life-style, but to actually be in an environment that fosters and promotes it. I believe it is of the utmost importance for those of us who are raising children and wish to guide them adequately and strive to keep them from walking the paths of the majority of people all over the world. We all know that it is always much easier and more preferable to raise your children in an environment in which the majority of the people share the same sense of ethics , morals and values (and NOT necessarily the same religious/theological position).
Plain and simple, (to use a parable of some sort), if you have an asthmatic child, DO NOT attempt to raise him in a househould full of inconsiderate smokers. The asthmatic would be considered the unique case of the bunch. It is much better for him or her to be raised in a househould full of non-smokers or, at the very least, others who are considerate enough not to smoke around him or her. We as GOD Alone believers are the unique cases of our societies and it is definately better for us to be in a place where there are many, many unique cases. That way, we not only have a community life of our own, but most importantly, we can GROW and EVENTUALLY become a definate and noticable influence on our environment. THIS is the key...and THIS is how and where it all begins!! Study the case histories of the mormons and the different cultural/ethnic communities in Philly, New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. These people (Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Irish, etc) established their respective communities mainly through the process of migration.
Now as far as WHAT I believe a GOD Alone community to be, that's fairly simple. For me, a GOD Alone society is one which is the opposite of society today. Today's society is immoral, crooked, corrupt, dishonest, uncaring, dangerous, greedy, selfish, decadent and down right ignorant. To me, a GOD Alone society is the Complete Opposite of these things.
One thing I feel as though that I must stress....To me, a GOD Alone society is not one in which everyone thinks the same and has the same views ad interpretations!! YOU know, the robotic, cult-like zombie minded community with a "Religious Overseer/Enforcer" watching over everyone. If I wanted that kind of living, I can migrate to Saudi Arabia.
Listen, only GOD can guide and GOD is the teacher of His Book. It is absolutely pointless to waste our time debating about the same things over and over and over again and again. This is why we don't have a society now. Do you think everyone in the Jewish community in New York city think exactly alike and see everything alike?? Do you think the Chinese of Chinatown in San Francisco think and see everything exactly alike?? Do you think the Cuban community in Miami think and see everything exactly alike?? I can tell you now that they don't.....it's not going to happen!! No way, no how. We are all our own individuals and because of that, we will never, I repeat, NEVER think exactly alike and interpret The Quran exactly alike.
So if the people of the above named communities do not and will not ever think exactly alike, how did they manage to successfully establish their own commuities?
THEY DID IT BY FOCUSING ON WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT AND THAT IS TO HAVE A PLACE THAT THEY CAN CALL THEIR OWN HOME!!
And this is exactly what we must emulate if we are to get the motions going in that direction. For those of you who think that we have to establish a universal or general consesus of theological issues before we attempt this strategy, I can guarantee you that you are approaching this thing entirely the wrong way. I can point out almost a million things wrong with that position.
So, if a GOD Alone society isn't one in which everyone in it has the exact same spiritual/theological views, then what is it? What is it about a GOD Alone society that sets it apart from any other society?
To me, a GOD Alone society is one where the people strive hard to 'aata-uz-zakaa' to contribute towards the betterment/purification of the society they are in as well as to purify/better themselves. This is done through the righteous works that GOD always speaks about and by being examples of morals, ethics and GOD-conciousness.
That's it in a very brief nutshell.
Peace,
Damon. -
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Hello All,
Sometimes the naievety of some people amazes me! -)
Well I wish you all the best to all you Koran Alone Believers. I suggest a far away Island. Some where near the Bermuda Triangle, so that no one can find you. I will surely miss some of you. But in time I will get used to it. I will stay behind with my Atheists, My buddhist, My Christians, My Sikhs, My Jains, My Hindoos, and those nice Traditionalist Muslims too etc. for My "GOD" is everywhere and within every individual.
Regards,
Did Damon even mention "Koran alone believers"? Perhaps you should read his real view before speculating that his idea is simultaneous to a cult wanting to establish their own dictatorship, like the Mormons or somethin, your idiotic generalizations are almost comical at times
Yes, comical effect thats what I aimed for LOL -)
I hit the bulls-eye with you Young Idris!! -)(and read what others have written too...I was not replying specifically to a person....)
Regards,
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Well I wish you all the best to all you Koran Alone Believers. I suggest a far away Island. Some where near the Bermuda Triangle, so that no one can find you. I will surely miss some of you. But in time I will get used to it. I will stay behind with my Atheists, My buddhist, My Christians, My Sikhs, My Jains, My Hindoos, and those nice Traditionalist Muslims too etc. for My "GOD" is everywhere and within every individual.
Shalom LT, migration isn't for 'spiritual reasons'. Migration (to an al-madeenah, a space where the deen is in action) is to seek peace. In a society which doesn't legislate in accordance to god's laws. attainment of peace is impossible.
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Salaam all
mquran wrote
In a society which doesn't legislate in accordance to god's laws. attainment of peace is impossible.Attainment of peace is possible only within yourself.
Elke
Aye chuck !!! (UK Yorkshire accent) -)
Very much so!Regards,
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Elke Attainment of peace is possible only within yourself
.If you're a disembodied consciousness, sure. Sadly, most of us if not all, manifest in this world as physical bodies. Therefore, physical satisfaction cannot be overlooked in order to attain inner peace.
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Peace mq,
If you're a disembodied consciousness, sure. Sadly, most of us if not all, manifest in this world as physical bodies. Therefore, physical satisfaction cannot be overlooked in order to attain inner peace.
lol I echo Kyle when I say you should post more often...
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Salaam all,
migration isn't for 'spiritual reasons'. Migration (to an al-madeenah, a space where the deen is in action) is to seek peace. In a society which doesn't legislate in accordance to god's laws. attainment of peace is impossible.
This is very, very close to what I was trying to say here in this thread. Yes, I wish to be in a Peaceful society, but it is a peace based upon it being a Safe society and being free of Social Injustice. Hopefully, this point will be made even clearer as I address Sister LK's post.
Attainment of peace is possible only within yourself.
This is only half true. Attainment of Inner Peace is possible only Within yourself. But, we cannot overlook the fact that there is such things as Outer Peace which is reflected in the environment. That comes from the people of that environment all having Inner Peace and having their own personal relationship with their lord. That is why some places are considered more peaceful than others, which in turn makes it safer and less stressful than others. This is what I seek. I am not seeking a place that is uniform and robotic.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but I think it is so much easier to attain and talk about inner peace in Morocco and yet you would have a very hard time expressing those same sentiments if you lived here in the U.S. where Inner Anger and Inner Hatred far outnumber those with Inner Peace and Inner Love.
It is because of this lack of inner peace that I have to live side by side with gang bangers. It is because of this lack of inner peace that I can get pulled over by a Euro-American cop and I have to be on edge concerning what he is going to do with me as an African American at night.
You can have inner peace all you want, but come to America and see how far that inner peace can save you from this cold, violent, hateful place that we call America.
I don't believe Gangs exist in Morocco.
I don't believe that banks get held up in Morocco.
I don't believe that pedophiles and kidnappings are rampant in Morocco.
I don't believe innocent people get victimized by others who are driving and have what we call "Road Rage".
I don't believe that armed robberies are as much a problem in Morocco as they are in the U.S.
I don't believe that rape is a big problem in Morocco as we have here in the U.S.
Serial rapists, murderers, drug dealers, Ku Klux Klan, racism, you name it.
It is because of someone's lack of love and inner peace that he would refuse to give me a job that I am well qualified for only because he has a problem with my ethnicity.
I don't believe that they have an all gay high school in Morocco like we have in New York City.
I don't believe that they are allowing Gay Marriages in Morocoo like they are here in the U.S. Some are even allowed to adopt children.
As I said in my last post, a society that is moral, just, peaceful and safe is totally opposite to what exists here now. DO WE WISH TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT OR ARE WE CONTENT TO WASTE OUR TIME DEBATING WITH EACH OTHER WHILE THE WORLD AROUND US CRUMBLES AND DETERIORATES AND WILL EVENTUALLY DRAG US DOWN WITH IT??
If someone gave a survey between two different cities, we'll call them A City and B City, and B city is shown that at least 90% of it's inhabitants all have inner peace and have a content relationship with their lord, I will choose that place anytime over city A even if City A has a better economy.
We can have inner peace all we want, but in a place like the U.S. that inner peace can and will be infringed upon by others who lack that same inner peace. You can count on that.
Peace,
Damon. -
Salaamun alaikum,
Savage Carrot I echo Kyle when I say you should post more often...
Thanks. Very kind of you to say.
Damon Please do not take this the wrong way, but I think it is so much easier to attain and talk about inner peace in Morocco and yet you would have a very hard time expressing those same sentiments if you lived here in the U.S. where Inner Anger and Inner Hatred far outnumber those with Inner Peace and Inner Love.
Can't say as i've been to neither place. There is a bilateral relationship between outer and inner peace (respectively salm and amn in Quranic terms). Imaan and thus amn, can be attained anywhere but must be translated into the program of al-islaam.
I used to think a 'collective opinion' about migration is the precursor to its actualisation but I've changed my mind. Such a 'collective society' isn't Quranic. A messenger is necessary to personify al-quraan in the midst of such a society. He demonstrates al-quraan over the people, renders growth for them and gives them information about alkitaab and alhikmah (3/164).
I feel that this is lacking in your theory, Damon.
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Peace,
Can't say as i've been to neither place.
Well, I live in the United States and I have been to Morocco on two seprate occasions. The two times that I have visited Morocco I was still a sunni muslim. In fact, the purpose of my last trip there was to initiate arrangements for moving there. I've given up that idea once I became a non-believer in hadith, sunnah and the 'ulema.
There is a bilateral relationship between outer and inner peace
If you mean that outer peace is attained due to the influence of those who have inner peace, I agree with you and I believe that the safety and outer peace which is attained can positively re-enforce the inner peace that the people value. I believe that they go hand - in - hand. That they keep reenforcing and feeding upon each other.
A messenger is necessary to personify al-quraan in the midst of such a society. He demonstrates al-quraan over the people, renders growth for them and gives them information about alkitaab and alhikmah (3/164).
I feel that this is lacking in your theory, Damon.
The reason that I have avoided this discussion is because I have already been down this road. You and I simply differ as to who or what a messenger is, as well as the role that this person plays. There's nothing you or I can do about that. You see it the way you do and I see it the way I do and I no longer have the energy it takes to get into those kinds of discussions.
Peace,
Damon. -
Salam all and especially damon,
I just finished a very long post and it got lost?
I?ll start again.Dear damon, you seem to have a lot of anger and i can understand when you talk of where you live. But you don?t know morocco.
You wroteI don't believe Gangs exist in Morocco.
I don't believe that banks get held up in Morocco.
I don't believe that pedophiles and kidnappings are rampant in Morocco.
I don't believe innocent people get victimized by others who are driving and have what we call "Road Rage".
I don't believe that armed robberies are as much a problem in Morocco as they are in the U.S.
I don't believe that rape is a big problem in Morocco as we have here in the U.S.
Serial rapists, murderers, drug dealers, Ku Klux Klan, racism, you name it.
It is because of someone's lack of love and inner peace that he would refuse to give me a job that I am well qualified for only because he has a problem with my ethnicity.
I don't believe that they have an all gay high school in Morocco like we have in New York City.
I don't believe that they are allowing Gay Marriages in Morocoo like they are here in the U.S. Some are even allowed to adopt children.
Sorry, but we do have gangs, some places the police never enters, specially in Casablanca and Sal?.
Bank robbery - true not much heard of.
Rape, Pedophily are big problems in morocco - even if not much talked about, caus the victims better shut up...
A lot of abandonned sniffing kids in the street, beggars everywhere.
Armed robbery / road rage Don't worry for us, we have our share, especially road robbery at night
Gay school and marriages no for sure not, but there is a great gay and also more generally sex tourism going on, more specifically in marrakech and prostitution is high everywhere.Now to racism Ok no kukluxklan - but you're a dreamer if you believe that people are not racist here cause morocco is a real melting pot.
I experience racism on a regular basis, cause i'm "gouria" or "nasrania" and because people think that i don't understand them...
Things get even better when i walk the streets with my best friend who is senegalese. And for his side, he experiences another kind of racism, don't you worry.
I shared appartment with this friend for 2 years and could have gone to jail for it. Do you think this is normal ?
A french friend of mine married a moroccan girl. She was so so ill treated in the street here that she got severe depression. They moved to France but as i hear it doesn't get much better there caus they live in the "cit?" where mentality is the same and the doing even worse! Guess it ressembles your place. While living here they often finished their day at the police coz you don't usually carry your marriage contract with you!Then there is a general corruption, police brutality on peaceful demonstrators (right in front of my place and quite often). The worst of all is the hypocrisy of it all!
Why do i stay ? Cause i wont leave my kids behind and i wont kidnap them either. And also, crazy to say but i still like it here. Coz there is a warmth in many moroccans that you don't find in europe or america!
mquran
If you're a disembodied consciousness, sure. Sadly, most of us if not all, manifest in this world as physical bodies. Therefore, physical satisfaction cannot be overlooked in order to attain inner peace.
very ironic thank you. but i stand on my position. I never said that physical satisfaction - or well being - is unimportant, never said either that i actually attained inner peace. Just working on it and trying to keep the balance.
damon wrote
We can have inner peace all we want, but in a place like the U.S. that inner peace can and will be infringed upon by others who lack that same inner peace. You can count on thatYou can count on that anyplace, in diverse degrees. Migration is a solution though when things get too dangerous.
Peace, lk