New reading of V 6:145
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Salam PB,
I agree again. Lahm/flesh, then, does not include for examples the pig's liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brains, and lard/fat, hence, they are halal to eat. Now, the rational mind must ask, what is it about the lahm/flesh of pig, exactly, that makes it rijsun and haram for the eater to eat, whereas, the other parts, especially the intestines for example, is not? How can the flesh be more of a problem, then say, the intestines? I think we can all agree that the intestines as opposed to the flesh, is much more filthy. To reply with...Allah knows best, is to blindly follow and Allah condems this.
The body and the digestive system (intestines, stomach....) are closely linked
Ponder more before making lawfull intestines, liver, the heart......I ask you the same question than Danish, since the blood and the meat of pig are edible and not fatal for human, how do you admit that the blood in the same way than carrion are not healthy and pure for us and not the meat of pig?
I'd like to understand your logic.Thanks in advance.
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Salam PB,
I agree again. Lahm/flesh, then, does not include for examples the pig's liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brains, and lard/fat, hence, they are halal to eat. Now, the rational mind must ask, what is it about the lahm/flesh of pig, exactly, that makes it rijsun and haram for the eater to eat, whereas, the other parts, especially the intestines for example, is not? How can the flesh be more of a problem, then say, the intestines? I think we can all agree that the intestines as opposed to the flesh, is much more filthy. To reply with...Allah knows best, is to blindly follow and Allah condems this.
The body and the digestive system (intestines, stomach....) are closely linked Ponder more before making lawfull intestines, liver, the heart......
- "Closely linked" does not mean..."the same as", you are fudging again. As lahm is distinct from shahm, hence, are entirely different terms, likewise, hawaya (small intestines), is also a distinct term and distinct from lahm and shahm. Given these distinctions then, the intestines of the pig, as with the intestines of the ox and sheep, likewise, must be halal, in that, the intestines are not lahm.
I was not clear in my last statement, I will try to clarify it through a question to you
Can you eat liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brain or fat of a sick cow with the disease of "Croswell-Jacob" ?
Let us suppose that lahm alkhinzeer means ill-seeming meat, Does the God only forbid the meat of a sick cow with the disease of Croswell-Jacob?
It is more logic that all the body of this cow was forbiden for the consumption and not only its meat."I think" is not truth. Either you know what you are talking about or you don't. Ayats 733 makes it haram to speak of Allah without knowledge, meaning, having facts not opinion/"I think". In ayat 1736, Allah tells us not to follow anything of which we have no knowledge
Do you claim you hold the absolute truth about all thing? if this is not the case, according to your extreme reasoning, this forum should be closed because nor you neither any member here do not hold the absolute truth. We are here to share our understanding and we pray the God to improve our knowledge.
What you consider as a truth is only your own truth and not the absolute truth. All what you can do is to share it and confront it with other understandings/view/opinion.Well, intestines and fat do not cover bones. Fat, as with the intestines, are full of pollutants. Why, then, isn't the fat of pig rijsun for the eater to eat?
You should refer to the study about the fat of pig and compare wit the study about the meat of pig.
Danish and I are stating that the pig is not unhealthy to eat and, given the fact that billions have been eating since time immemorial without health problems, how is it then unhealthy/unpure for human consumption?
You can say the same thing for the blood (black pudding ), that doesn't prove they are pure (100%) for one eater. You admit that the blood is not pure and you apply your reasoning only for the meat of the pig roll
Is this you infaillible logic?On what do you base your conclusion the pig is unhealthy/unpure for the eater to eat
For the same reason than the blood
Indeed they are edible and not fatal but their consumption is not pure (100%) for the eater. How simple but difficult to understand.Salam
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Salam all,
In the Reading, the words used to mean ill is marad, marda, mareed, saqeemun
- O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except if travelling, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola taqraboo alssalata waantum sukarahatta taAAlamoo ma taqooloona walajunuban illa AAabiree sabeelin hattataghtasiloo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin awjaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumualnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedantayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekuminna Allaha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran
4102, 56, 991, 3332, 4817, 7320,
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- As for those who have a disease in their hearts, it only increased foulness to their foulness, and they died as rejecters.
Waamma allatheena feequloobihim maradun fazadat-hum rijsan ilarijsihim wamatoo wahum kafiroona
- There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may understand.
Laysa AAala al-aAAma harajunwala AAala al-aAAraji harajun walaAAala almareedi harajun wala AAalaanfusikum an ta/kuloo min buyootikum aw buyooti aba-ikumaw buyooti ommahatikum aw buyooti ikhwanikum awbuyooti akhawatikum aw buyooti aAAmamikum awbuyooti AAammatikum aw buyooti akhwalikum awbuyooti khalatikum aw ma malaktum mafatihahuaw sadeeqikum laysa AAalaykum junahun an ta/kuloojameeAAan aw ashtatan fa-itha dakhaltum buyootanfasallimoo AAala anfusikum tahiyyatan min AAindiAllahi mubarakatan tayyibatan kathalikayubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakumtaAAqiloona
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And if I am sick, He is the One who cures me.
Wa-itha maridtu fahuwayashfeeni -
And he said I am ill!
Faqala innee saqeemun
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PEACE, MARIE,
PBM I agree again. Lahm/flesh, then, does not include for examples the pig's liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brains, and lard/fat, hence, they are halal to eat. Now, the rational mind must ask, what is it about the lahm/flesh of pig, exactly, that makes it rijsun and haram for the eater to eat, whereas, the other parts, especially the intestines for example, is not? How can the flesh be more of a problem, then say, the intestines? I think we can all agree that the intestines as opposed to the flesh, is much more filthy. To reply with...Allah knows best, is to blindly follow and Allah condems this.
The body and the digestive system (intestines, stomach....) are closely linked Ponder more before making lawfull intestines, liver, the heart......
PBM 1. "Closely linked" does not mean..."the same as", you are fudging again. As lahm is distinct from shahm, hence, are entirely different terms, likewise, hawaya (small intestines), is also a distinct term and distinct from lahm and shahm. Given these distinctions then, the intestines of the pig, as with the intestines of the ox and sheep, likewise, must be halal, in that, the intestines are not lahm.
I was not clear in my last statement, I will try to clarify it through a question to you Can you eat liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brain or fat of a sick cow with the disease of "Croswell-Jacob" ? Let us suppose that lahm alkhinzeer means ill-seeming meat, Does the God only forbid the meat of a sick cow with the disease of Croswell-Jacob?
It is more logic that all the body of this cow was forbiden for the consumption and not only its meat.Excellent question and it proves my point that lahma khinzerin is not meat of pig. If a cow has "mad cow" disease of course no part of it is halal as food, because due to the disease it becomes...lahma khinzerin--ill-seeming/that which "I see as bad", hence, must be avoided.
PBM I think" is not truth. Either you know what you are talking about or you don't. Ayats 733 makes it haram to speak of Allah without knowledge, meaning, having facts not opinion/"I think". In ayat 1736, Allah tells us not to follow anything of which we have no knowledge
Do you claim you hold the absolute truth about all thing? if this is not the case, according to your extreme reasoning, this forum should be closed because nor you neither any member here do not hold the absolute truth. We are here to share our understanding and we pray the God to improve our knowledge. What you consider as a truth is only your own truth and not the absolute truth. All what you can do is to share it and confront it with other understandings/view/opinion.
I agree with you that opinions, conjectures, p.o.v.'s are important in developing the proper understanding of Al-Deen Allah and Al-Quran, we are in agreement here. The problem, however, comes in when people take their opinion/conjectures and assign them to Allah and His Deen, thus, elevating them to truth/knowledge and Islamic/Quranic Law. It is the height of absurdity to think/believe that, Allah, revealed a Perfect Book of Guidance which cannot be definitively understood and applied. This Book was sent to all of mankind, hence, it's guidance must be objective, definitive, unifying and readily applicable by all who wish to do so. If one cannot be certain of what one claims, (Allah, per ayats 733 tells us to be certain in out claims about Him, and 1736 tells us not follow anything until we are certain, hence, the guidance is objective and readiliy available to one and all.) then that individual cannot claim to have knowledge or understanding. Given your logic, one can only be in a perpetual state of guessing and hoping that he/she has it right. Perpetual guessing and hoping results from a philosophy based on relativism, that is, opinion and conjecturing, but lays no claim to certainty. You claim that lahma khinzerin means meat of pig, yet, you have not overcome ayats 55 and 6146 when taken together, totally preclude the pig either in whole or part, as being haram for the eater to eat, yet, you have elevated your opinion to Quranic truth and follow it as such. This is in violation of 733 and 1736.
PBM Well, intestines and fat do not cover bones. Fat, as with the intestines, are full of pollutants. Why, then, isn't the fat of pig rijsun for the eater to eat?
You should refer to the study about the fat of pig and compare wit the study about the meat of pig.
If the fat of pig or the intestines of the pig are haram for the eater, why , then, did Allah not specifically state that? We both have agreed that Allah knows how to say shahm, lahma, hawaya, correct? However, Allah, only says lahma khinzerin is haram, does Allah not say what He means? Clearly, as you pointed out to JM, Allah, per ayat 6146, refers to shahm and hawaya distinctly from lahma, correct? You are fudging again, Marie.
PBM Danish and I are stating that the pig is not unhealthy to eat and, given the fact that billions have been eating since time immemorial without health problems, how is it then unhealthy/unpure for human consumption?
You can say the same thing for the blood (black pudding ), that doesn't prove they are pure (100%) for one eater. You admit that the blood is not pure and you apply your reasoning only for the meat of the pig roll Is this you infaillible logic?
A very important reality which you and the others continue to lose sight of is this, blood, unlike the meat of pig, is not a species of animal. Ayats 55 and 6146, absolutely precludes the animal pig or any part of it, as being haram in any time period. To date, neither you, Tanveer, SC, JM, Jaxal, Sweden etc., have been able to overcome these two ayats and, until you either of you can do so, you cannot make the case that lahma khinzerin is referring to a part of a species of animal.
PBM On what do you base your conclusion the pig is unhealthy/unpure for the eater to eat
For the same reason than the blood Indeed they are edible and not fatal but their consumption is not pure (100%) for the eater. How simple but difficult to understand.
LOL! Well, shellfish, for millions upon millions, is edible, yet, it is not 100% pure and healthy for the eater to eat (in fact, for many, to eat it will be fatal due to allergic reactions), so why isn't shellfish haram to the eater to eat? The fact is this, blood is a tremendous source of infectious and potentially fatal pathogens i.e. HIV/Aids and Hepatitis, hence, it needs to be avoided as a source of food.
Btw, you still have not clarified if by lahma khinzerin, you mean the flesh, that is, that which covers the bones or do you mean any meat part of the pig. Please define your term.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace PB,
I will comment only the following point
I was not clear in my last statement, I will try to clarify it through a question to you Can you eat liver, intestines, kidneys, hooves, heart, brain or fat of a sick cow with the disease of "Croswell-Jacob" ? Let us suppose that lahm alkhinzeer means ill-seeming meat, Does the God only forbid the meat of a sick cow with the disease of Croswell-Jacob?
It is more logic that all the body of this cow was forbiden for the consumption and not only its meat
.Excellent question and it proves my point that lahma khinzerin is not meat of pig. If a cow has "mad cow" disease of course no part of it is halal as food, because due to the disease it becomes...lahma khinzerin--ill-seeming/that which "I see as bad", hence, must be avoided.
Your interperation of lahm alkhinzeer collapse once again because the the God's commands are complete not partial. Does He forbid only the ill meat instead of all the body of each sick animals like deed meat?
Ponder more and more on this argument.
If you miss my post about what is used in the Reading to mean sick ill
In the Reading, the words used to mean ill is marad, marda, mareed, saqeemun
- O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except if travelling, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola taqraboo alssalata waantum sukarahatta taAAlamoo ma taqooloona walajunuban illa AAabiree sabeelin hattataghtasiloo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin awjaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumualnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedantayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekuminna Allaha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran
4102, 56, 991, 3332, 4817, 7320,
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- As for those who have a disease in their hearts, it only increased foulness to their foulness, and they died as rejecters.
Waamma allatheena feequloobihim maradun fazadat-hum rijsan ilarijsihim wamatoo wahum kafiroona
- There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may understand.
Laysa AAala al-aAAma harajunwala AAala al-aAAraji harajun walaAAala almareedi harajun wala AAalaanfusikum an ta/kuloo min buyootikum aw buyooti aba-ikumaw buyooti ommahatikum aw buyooti ikhwanikum awbuyooti akhawatikum aw buyooti aAAmamikum awbuyooti AAammatikum aw buyooti akhwalikum awbuyooti khalatikum aw ma malaktum mafatihahuaw sadeeqikum laysa AAalaykum junahun an ta/kuloojameeAAan aw ashtatan fa-itha dakhaltum buyootanfasallimoo AAala anfusikum tahiyyatan min AAindiAllahi mubarakatan tayyibatan kathalikayubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakumtaAAqiloona
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And if I am sick, He is the One who cures me.
Wa-itha maridtu fahuwayashfeeni -
And he said I am ill!
Faqala innee saqeemun
Praise to the God, the Reading is the best dictionary and criterion.
Human interpretation/conjecture not based on the best criterion which is the Reading is no substitute for the truth.
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If the fat of pig or the intestines of the pig are haram for the eater, why , then, did Allah not specifically state that? We both have agreed that Allah knows how to say shahm, lahma, hawaya, correct? However, Allah, only says lahma khinzerin is haram, does Allah not say what He means? Clearly, as you pointed out to JM, Allah, per ayat 6146, refers to shahm and hawaya distinctly from lahma, correct?
The God forbad for the Jews the fat of cattle and sheep as a punishment for their rebellion. He didn't forbad the meat. Since the meat is not prohibited then the digestive system cannot be prohibited. the muscles are developed by the digestion of food. If there is a risk of disease after the consumption of the meat, this is also valid for the intestines, liver....
The Reading is a guide and a criterion for those who use their reason.
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blood is a tremendous source of infectious and potentially fatal pathogens i.e. HIV/Aids and Hepatitis, hence, it needs to be avoided as a source of food.
Carrion, blood and the meat of pig represent several degree of infectious and they are not at the same level. One cannot disregard one of them because one is less potentially infectious than others. The God is the best knower not human conjecture.
About the word rijsun which I understand as unhealthty, unpure for the eater that doesn't mean when the eater eat Carrion or blood or the meat of pig , he should have the serious problem immediately because they are 3 sources of infectious with several degrees. The God whishes to purify us completely.
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PEACE, MARIE,
PBM If the fat of the pig or the intestines of the pig are haram for the eater, why , then, did Allah not specifically state that? We both have agreed that Allah knows how to say shahm, lahma, hawaya, correct? However, Allah, only says lahma khinzerin is haram, does Allah not say what He means? Clearly, as you pointed out to JM, Allah, per ayat 6146, refers to shahm and hawaya distinctly from lahma, correct?
The God forbad for the Jews the fat of cattle and sheep as a punishment for their rebellion. He didn't forbad the meat. Since the meat is not prohibited then the digestive system cannot be prohibited. the muscles are developed by the digestion of food. If there is a risk of disease after the consumption of the meat, this is also valid for the intestines, liver....
You're not making any sense, Marie. The shahm was not made haram due to any health/digestive concerns, it was made haram ONLY as a punishment. Aren't we allowed to eat shahm? Your above response is not only pure conjecture and self-contradictory, but totally misunderstands why the shahm was made haram in the first place...as punishment.
The Reading is a guide and a criterion for those who use their reason.
I totally agree, however, your above comment contradicts your understanding that..."The Reading is a guide and a criterion for those who use their reason".
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PEACE, MARIE,
PBM blood is a tremendous source of infectious and potentially fatal pathogens i.e. HIV/Aids and Hepatitis, hence, it needs to be avoided as a source of food.
Carrion, blood and the meat of pig represent several degree of infectious and they are not at the same level. One cannot disregard one of them because one is less potentially infectious than others. The God is the best knower not human conjecture. About the word rijsun which I understand as unhealthty, unpure for the eater that doesn't mean when the eater eat Carrion or blood or the meat of pig , he should have the serious problem immediately because they are 3 sources of infectious with several degrees. The God whishes to purify us completely.
Well, then you are stating that the lahm of pig, unlike other animals, is a carrier of infectious and potentially fatal diseases. Is this your position now? If it is, then, the lahm of pig, intrinsically, is rijsun, however, time and again you've rejected this notion. So, which is it? Is there something intrinsically wrong with/bad with the lahm of pig or not?
I'm still waiting for a definitive definition for lahm, that is, how you are defining it.
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Salam PB,
- As I said previously, if any part of an animal becomes infected then the whole animal, to me anyway, is infected, hence, it becomes lahm khinzerin--ill-seeming/that which I see as bad.
We agree that the consumption of any part of the animal whatever he is dead or sick/ill is unhealthy for the eater.
However, the God specifies that it is forbiden for us "lahm alkhinzeer" and "almayta/dead animal" instead of lahm almayta/the meat of the dead animal.
If the God means the whole ill-animal, then we should read only "alkhinzeer" without lahm in the same way than almayta wich is without any precision.
Consequently, lahm alkhinzeer cannot mean nor the whole animal, neither ill seeming meat because the consumption of the whole animal whatever he is dead or sick is unhealthy for the eater.You insist that lhma alkhinzeer is ill-seeming which is not supported by the Reading and based only on conjecture. If the Reading is your criterion then you can see clearly that the God uses a specific word to mean ill/sick.
This is just common sense/intellect. One of the major problems with your position is this, if the meat of pig is not intrinsically bad by its created nature, then why is it rijsun for the eater to eat it?
In the light of the Reading, permitted for us all the animals of the livestock, except what is specifically forbidden in the Book (51)
We are given for examples of these quadrupeds (6143-144)
- the sheeps
- the goats
- the camels
- the cows
They are herbivores and ruminants contrary to the pig which is omnivorous and non ruminant.
We have to consider these four examples as a criterion for us. The desease of Croswell-Jacob is a good example.The God created the pig as omnivorous non ruminant contrary to the the sheeps, goats, camels and cows. The God prohibited the meat of pig for us because its consuption can be a potential source of desease for human which is proved scientifically in the same way for the blood.
Now feel free to accept it or not.
To make it clear one of all
Alkhinzeer = the whole animal
lahm alkhinzeer is not the whole animal
Why the God doesn't forbad the fat of pig, do refer to the scientific study about the fat of pig.
No comment avout your understanding of 55 because you use only a part of some verse to fit your point and you neglect the whole Reading. To you is your approch and to me is mine.
the muscles are developed by the digestion of food. If there is a risk of disease after the consumption of the meat, this is also valid for the intestines, liver....
Sorry for the confusion, the quote above concerns only the prohibition of the pig's meat. You asked me about intestines, liver..of the pig et it was my response for you. If there is some infectious germs in the meat, it forwarded through the digective system. I hope it's clear for you.
The source of desease is due to the infectious germ contained in the meat of pig, the runing blood and dead animal.
The diet of some animals make their meat unhealthy for us because it may contain some infectious germ. What is your problem with this?I'm still waiting for a definitive definition for lahm, that is, how you are defining it.
Lahm = meat.
Salam
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You need to Quranically refute the above Marie, otherwise, your argument is gone. Looking forward to your reply.
I have no time to repeat to you all quranic arguments which destroy your understanding.
Take much time to read carefully what is already said about it.
I leave you with peace
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Fine, so meat excludes fat, bone, and hoof material, thus, these are halal as food...is this your position? If so, then how do these things escape the "infectious germ" contamination, which you claim is inherent to the meat of pigs?
PB u are getting stupid by the minute. How do u know that the shit and piss you hold in u doesnt infect your whole body? Comon man use some common sense. And if you are like this, i cant even imagine what those two people you mention that "guided' you to this understand must be like.
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- JM, wrote We have no direct knowledge of whether or not God forbade the Jews to eat pig. The torah may have been altered, so, it cannot be regarded as a reliable source of knowledge.
You are distorting what I have said, by quoting only a part of my post.
Yes, we have no direct knowledge, but (as I have explained it) we have indirect knowledge, by combining and , and reminding the grammatical rule.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4031&start=625#55493
And http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4031&start=625#55205Your statements have been refuted again and again.
I will waste no more time with you.