How Authentic is the Quran?
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Salaam Jaxal & MQuran!
Interesting topic this is and I had to post so I can get a better understanding because at this very moment I'm in two minds whether the Quran is changed or not. Now correct me if I'm wrong Jaxal and Mquran.
I see Jaxals point that the Quran does say the Reminder is protected BUT we have different Quran's all over the world whether its additions or alterations. God says the message is protected or the physical Quran itself, maybe God is talking about the essence of the message and not the physical book itself, God knows best.
MQuran I also understand your point too that if the Quran says it is unaltered then an external source i.e old manuscript doesn't prove anything and could be a throw off to leave doubts in peoples minds. It's tricky for me because there are different versions(looking at the historical manuscripts if they are really historical which maybe scientists can prove somehow) of Quran but how do you know the ONE your studying is the right one or is the true message of God.
It's all up in the air for me guys so i'm just throwing ideas at you to debate further so I get a better understanding and also for the benefit of other readers because at the moment im ? lol
PEACE
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SaLaM 2Pac
There are 3 reasons why i have no doubt nor any problem stating that the Quran has been changed/altered
1] I have seen it with my own eyes.
2] There are , as you said, different versions of the Quran out there which had additions to it so that its easier to pronounce.
3] I dont believe Quran is THE book. This one is a bit hard to explain, becoz it is my own person belief, but i will try.Firstly, God has sent us 3 scriptures. Torah, Gospel and Quran. God asks us to rfer to the previous scripture when and if we are in doubt. This shows that we should follow the truth that is in the previous scriptures. I agree the previous scriptures have been changed. But not completely. Find the truth in there, and follow it.
Second, in revelations, there is a passage where God tells the prophet to stop writing. Something is said by God which is unkown. therefore, i dont think God has given us a complete message/scripture. I couldnt find any verse in the Quran which says that Quran is a complete book. Being a detailed book and being a complete book are two different things. Agree? I think the complete message/scripture is with God. THAT is the message/scriputre that is guarded. Becoz if you come to think of it, there is NOTHING stopping me to add 1 letter to the Quran and print it. chances are no one will evennotice it. I have a publishing business so i DO have the means to do it. How will God protect it? Will God come down and stop me? Will a bolt of lightening strike me? I dont think so.
LAstly, If you DO agree with the above, then there literally is no way i can change the message/scripture. We know from the goespel that it isnt a completel book. And i cant find any verse in the Quran that says that this is a complete book.
PLUS, we have evidence in front of us. Anyone one is welcomed to view the thread in my post. If it was hear say, i wouldnt beleive it either. But its right in front of our eyes. And if it is such a weak evidence then we should have no problem refuting it. But so far no one has.
Hope this clear things up for you. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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2PAC MQuran I also understand your point too that if the Quran says it is unaltered then an external source i.e old manuscript doesn't prove anything and could be a throw off to leave doubts in peoples minds. It's tricky for me because there are different versions(looking at the historical manuscripts if they are really historical which maybe scientists can prove somehow) of Quran but how do you know the ONE your studying is the right one or is the true message of God.
Salaam 2pac,
Can you please tell me what a 'scientific' and 'historical manuscript' is, please? Is it fair that when al-quraan has set its own criteria for authentication, we chuck an alien criteria at it?
How can we possibly know where those manuscripts came from? If we believe those manuscripts we must - by that same alien criteria - believe in hadith.
Jaxal 1] I have seen it with my own eyes.
He saw goatskins which some guy said was the Quran. Wow, major revelation ! We could get some goatskin and write the quran on it, thus possibly correcting him but he's not worth the bother, really. Its good to have this guy around when sunnis come in. They'd chuck the hadith far more quickly.
2] There are , as you said, different versions of the Quran out there which had additions to it so that its easier to pronounce
Utter rubbish once again. WHOLE WORDS have been added. This is what comes from being lazy to read. You simply get false info.
Firstly, God has sent us 3 scriptures. Torah, Gospel and Quran. God asks us to rfer to the previous scripture when and if we are in doubt. This shows that we should follow the truth that is in the previous scriptures. I agree the previous scriptures have been changed. But not completely. Find the truth in there, and follow it.
Utter rubbish, nowhere does the Quran EVER use the words 'previous' scripture. 2pac, why don't you ask him for evidence. Lets see if he actually listens to you.
How on earth is he going to 'find the truth in the 'previous scripture'' , I wonder? Is al-quraan going to be the criteria ? If it is, then what's the point of having the 'previous scripture' if al-quraan already said what is being said?
Second, in revelations, there is a passage where God tells the prophet to stop writing. Something is said by God which is unkown. therefore, i dont think God has given us a complete message/scripture
I think we need to contact Broadmoor and have this guy committed. He's obviously seeing things and live in a cloud cuckoo land where in his Quran, God told the prophet to STOP writing. This verse , of course, NOWHERE EXISTS in the entire al-quraan. But this is what comes from either pretending to study al-quraan when one hasn't or reading the quran as one would a trashy novel. Its really tickling to see the kind of nonsense that's said in here, honestly. First, it was 'god teaches democracy' and to do hajj in mecca and now this.
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SaLaM mquran
Loooooooooooooooooooooollllllllllll why so much hate??? You need to watch Anger Management.
An angry man, shuts his eyes and opens his mouth.
Thats for you. Dont be an angry man mquran. You need to calm down. This is a forum for discussion. Be decent. Not everyone believes in some crap like Quran is anti-democratic or that the criteria to be a messenger is to have good presentation skills. You need to learn how to not take things personally. rotfl
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Salaam 2pac,
Can you please tell me what a 'scientific' and 'historical manuscript' is, please? Is it fair that when al-quraan has set its own criteria for authentication, we chuck an alien criteria at it?
If scientists can prove that goatskin is dated close to Prophet Muhammeds time then it might be something worth looking into because if there's different versions of the Quran which ONE is the correct one. Please tell me what criteria has al-quraan used for authentication for the correct one??Sorry if I come across as being pessimist but things like this need to be addressed.
PEACE
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Thank You TheNabi & Wakas but it still doesn't answer my question
What criteria does al-quraan use for authentication for the real al-quraan....if there are many versions whether it be small letter additions or deletions how do we know which one is the REAL thing???
Please do explain ?
PEACE
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Jaxal Thats for you. Dont be an angry man mquran. You need to calm down. This is a forum for discussion. Be decent. Not everyone believes in some crap like Quran is anti-democratic or that the criteria to be a messenger is to have good presentation skills. You need to learn how to not take things personally
Angry? Does Homer Simpson make me angry? You have the same effect on me as Homer Simspon. If you believe the quran teaches democracy, why don't you prove it. It will involve reading and opening the quran though, that's the thing. You can't even understand a simple deduction, its shameful. Go back to preschool, Homer. It'll help, believe me.
2PACIf scientists can prove that goatskin is dated close to Prophet Muhammeds time then it might be something worth looking into because if there's different versions of the Quran which ONE is the correct one. Please tell me what criteria has al-quraan used for authentication for the correct one??Sorry if I come across as being pessimist but things like this need to be addressed
Ok, lets say they can 'prove' the approximation of the date. Does that prove Mohamed approved of it? The jump from date approximation to Mohamed's authentication is rather far. Can I ask you, can someone else not have written it? Can you know for sure? If you cannot, then I suggest you employ the Quran's internal criteria. Homer Simpson obviously doesn't have the brains to do it and he's a sunni-wannabe anyway. Why don't you give it a try?
Al-quraan starts with the assertion of the protection of az-zikr. Az-zikr, if you check 68/4 , means 'the one in eminence'. This is your starting point. Go anywhere in the world and check for the one in eminence. Al-quraan anywhere is one and the same. Secondly, its in 'lisaanun arabiyun mubiin' (16/103). Check your manuscripts and you will see that its ambiguities are very telling. I mentioned before that Ayman tried to manipulate the meaning of 30/1 , saying instead of the romans being defeated, the romans defeated. He could only do that to an ambigious text, but never to the one in eminence. Third and fourthly, please see wakas and joe's post.
hope that helps.
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Can I ask you, can someone else not have written it? Can you know for sure? If you cannot, then I suggest you employ the Quran's internal criteria
But which Quran you talking about?? What if the Quran you have now is not the one revealed to Muhammed letter to letter?? I kind of understood the eminence part i.e az-zikr but I cant get my head around it properly.....i'll pray to God to get me to the truth but please elaborate further for me about the Quranic criteria.
PEACE
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i hope ur not making this personal mquran. Why do you continue to embaress yourself? You couldnt refute it. Simple as that. So far, no one has been able to refute it. Stop the useless rants about how i dont understand this or that. Learn to discuss or debate an issue with decency, respect and knowledge. If you dont have anything USEFUL to add, then no one is forcing you to post. LEarn from your mistakes. I brought the evidence. You couldnt refute it. This isnt an ego contest where you continue making childish remarks or come back with some quip. IF you couldnt refute it then call it experiance and move on. We all , at some point or another experiance this. You just experianced yours. Take it in pride. NOT rant and rave ur frustrations out on the forum. If you have a problem with me, send me a pm and we can sort it out there. The forum isnt ur personal space to flush out ur frustrations.
Joe Is it that you dont know the answer, or you simply dont want to answer it? Who was the Torah given to?
BTW 2Pac, I am still looking for a verse from the Quran which says that Quran is a complete book. No one so far has been able to give me a verse. If you find one, will you plz forward it to me? I cant seem to find it in the Quran either.
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Salaam Jaxal,
Joe Is it that you dont know the answer, or you simply dont want to answer it? Who was the Torah given to?
I've been waiting for you to show me where the quran says that tauraat was given to musa. When you oblidge to that request than so shall I to yours.
Joe
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Salaam 2Pac,
But which Quran you talking about?? What if the Quran you have now is not the one revealed to Muhammed letter to letter?? I kind of understood the eminence part i.e az-zikr but I cant get my head around it properly.....i'll pray to God to get me to the truth but please elaborate further for me about the Quranic criteria.
It's fair question you ask. I believe what Allah tells me and I employ his methodolog and through his methodology, i come to the conclusion that the Quran coming from the land of pure Arabic to be the Quran Allah revealed (see 42/7, Al-quraan was IN ARABIC was revealed to the mother of the cities). So far, his methodology comforms to the reality around me. That is why I follow it, its a living reality , not a textually dead entity which depends upon museum-filled manuscripts.
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i hope ur not making this personal mquran.
Don't worry you're not worth getting riled up over.
Why do you continue to embaress yourself? You couldnt refute it. Simple as that. So far, no one has been able to refute it. Stop the useless rants about how i dont understand this or that. Learn to discuss or debate an issue with decency, respect and knowledge. If you dont have anything USEFUL to add, then no one is forcing you to post. LEarn from your mistakes. I brought the evidence. You couldnt refute it. This isnt an ego contest where you continue making childish remarks or come back with some quip. IF you couldnt refute it then call it experiance and move on. We all , at some point or another experiance this. You just experianced yours. Take it in pride. NOT rant and rave ur frustrations out on the forum. If you have a problem with me, send me a pm and we can sort it out there. The forum isnt ur personal space to flush out ur frustrations.
Ok, so you want to start again? We can discuss with 'decency, respect and knowledge'. Would you want to do that? If so, will you adhere to the principle of me answering one question of yours, then vice-versa? Is that ok with you ) Lets see how truthful you are, then )
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SaLaM Joe and mquran
Does Quran mentions not to marry 9 year olds even tho they reach their menstration cycle? Anyways, if we want to learn abou the Torah, then we have to pick up the Torah for that and learn basic of judaism.
Now tell me who was Torah revealed to.
mquran, why would i to continue discussing with you when you admit you cant refute the evidence? Give me 5 good reaons to do that.
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SaLaM Joe
shock What answer were you expecting? Apart from it being common knowledge that the Torah was given to Moses, i gave you a direct answer to your question. There wouldnt be any mention in the Quran about who are why the Torah was revealed. There is no reason to. But if you want to make sure that it IS Moses/Musa, study judaism. It wont bite.
Now, if you yourself dont know the answer, then that is another thing. But that is as clear of answer you will get .
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Salaam Jaxal,
Just to be clear, the quran never mentions that the Torah was given to Moses, but it just happens to mention that the Gospel was given to Jesus? Pray tell! If it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE. So indeed, why should Allah mention it. To tell you the truth, I would not follow your methodology to determining such a thing. Clearly there are soe kinks that need to be worked out.
Joe
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mquran, why would i to continue discussing with you when you admit you cant refute the evidence? Give me 5 good reaons to do that.
lol, i thought so. ok , thanks a lot for proving my point, homer. for the record, your so called evidence is easily refutable. why do you think 2pac doesnt pursue the question i asked
Ok, lets say they can 'prove' the approximation of the date. Does that prove Mohamed approved of it? The jump from date approximation to Mohamed's authentication is rather far. Can I ask you, can someone else not have written it? Can you know for sure?
Because anyone with a half a brain will realise that there is no way anyone can say anything was authenticated by Muhammad unless the Quran itself verifies it. However Homer, you seem lacking even that half.
The only reason you believe in manuscripts is because you got yourself into it and now your inability to understand, let alone refute is showing. I have to say, I havent met anyone like you before, but it takes all sorts, doesnt it..lol.
im done talking to you, but i'll continue to watch your 'torah conversation' with joe. hehe , its so funny watching him toy with you. Reminds me of my cat when she catchs a mouse....
