THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
-
PEACE, MQURAN,
Salaams PB,
YOU SAID THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
Shouldn?t we say rather THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
Second I think we are misunderstanding what Shirk is according to its definition in the quran.
Would appreciate your view on this,and then may be we can start the ball rolling as its said.
Salaams.
Actually, I wanted the title of the post to read THE VAST MAJORITY OF SO-CALLED MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL. I wanted the so-called Muslim to understand that, they too are included in the vast majority of people.
I take it then that you do not agree with how I am using shirk and believe I am not being consistent with how Al-Quran definesit. Please elaborate, thanks.
Looking forward to your reply.
-
Priest Bokmei, is it possible to be a muslim without being a mumin ?
Define for me mumin, thanks.
-
PEACE, MQURAN,
A mumin is one who has conviction in Allah, yaumul akhir, the rusul, kutub and malaika.
This is my understanding as well. To answer your question then, no, it is not possible to be a mumin and not be a muslim.
Better yet is Quran's definition, 3/67 phrases it thus haneefan muslimaan wa maa kaana minal musyrikin. Haneefan muslim, never was he one who associates.
-
Do you find my definition haneefan to be inconsistent with Al-Quran's?
-
Do you agree the vast majority of those, who identify themselves as muslims, are, in fact, not muslim at all?
-
-
Peace PB,
This is my understanding as well. To answer your question then, no, it is not possible to be a mumin and not be a muslim
Agreed, but the opposite isn't true. You can be a muslim without being mumin (49/14).
- Do you find my definition haneefan to be inconsistent with Al-Quran's?
This is why I highlighted this concept in the first place. You said
Conclusion Allah demands that only He be served, that is, only His Guidance be follwed. Once an individual takes two or more things for one's guidance, then one cannot claim to be a muslim and is in fact a mushrik.I don't agree to this. I think you can be a muslim (but not necessarily mu'min) and still have the shirik disease. However, once you're HANEEFAN musliman, then no, you then worship only Allah.
- Do you agree the vast majority of those, who identify themselves as muslims, are, in fact, not muslim at all?
I don't know, I only know the people i've met who label themselves 'muslim'. Then yes, by quranic definition, they're not muslim as far as i can tell.
-
PEACE, MUQURAN.
Agreed, but the opposite isn't true. You can be a muslim without being mumin (49/14).
Regardless, by definition, a muslim is one who surrenders to Allah, that is, the indivdual agrees not to be a polytheist. Mumin, that is, conviction, comes later. One, however, cannot reach the status of mumin until one is first a muslim and a muslim does not take other than Allah as his/her guidance.
PBM 1. Do you find my definition haneefan to be inconsistent with Al-Quran's?
This is why I highlighted this concept in the first place. You said
PBM Conclusion Allah demands that only He be served, that is, only His Guidance be follwed. Once an individual takes two or more things for one's guidance, then one cannot claim to be a muslim and is in fact a mushrik.
I don't agree to this. I think you can be a muslim (but not necessarily mu'min) and still have the shirik disease. However, once you're HANEEFAN musliman, then no, you then worship only Allah.
I don't agree. Abraham, per ayat 2131, says that he surrenders to Allah and that made him a muslim at that point. In ayat 2135, Allah defines Abraham as not being one of the mushriks/polytheists. Now, in ayat 367, Abraham is defined as haneefan muslim and not a mumin. Remember now, the operative term here is muslim and not mumin and Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats. Do you believe that although Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats that, he had the disease of shirk? Nothing supports that notion at all. Haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that he uninhibited in his muslimness. Can we legitimately equate haneefan muslim and mumin? If so, why does Allah make a disticntion in these terms?
PBM 2. Do you agree the vast majority of those, who identify themselves as muslims, are, in fact, not muslim at all?
I don't know, I only know the people i've met who label themselves 'muslim'. Then yes, by quranic definition, they're not muslim as far as i can tell.
No doubt.
-
Salaamun alaikum PBM
Regardless, by definition, a muslim is one who surrenders to Allah, that is, the indivdual agrees not to be a polytheist. Mumin, that is, conviction, comes later. One, however, cannot reach the status of mumin until one is first a muslim and a muslim does not take other than Allah as his/her guidance
Disagreed. Please look at this Say "We BELIEVE in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God we are MUSLIMEEN (3/84)
PBM Conclusion Allah demands that only He be served, that is, only His Guidance be follwed. Once an individual takes two or more things for one's guidance, then one cannot claim to be a muslim and is in fact a mushrik
Once again, disagreed. A muslim is one who submits. He may still have other dieties which he needs to get rid of like as such his own hawaa (25/43). Only when he's done this can he be 'haneefan muslimaan'.
Musa for example told his people to trust Allah if they are 'muslimeen'. Clearly, if his people were haneefan, he wouldn't need to say this for they would already be in that state.
I don't agree. Abraham, per ayat 2131, says that he surrenders to Allah and that made him a muslim at that point. In ayat 2135, Allah defines Abraham as not being one of the mushriks/polytheists. Now, in ayat 367, Abraham is defined as haneefan muslim and not a mumin. Remember now, the operative term here is muslim and not mumin and Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats. Do you believe that although Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats that, he had the disease of shirk? Nothing supports that notion at all. Haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that he uninhibited in his muslimness. Can we legitimately equate haneefan muslim and mumin? If so, why does Allah make a disticntion in these terms?
No, Ibrahim was called muslim as well as haneef. Therefore he didn't have the disease of shirik. This is different from bani israil who were muslim (as per firaun's recognition in 10/90) but resorted to worshipping the calf after Musa took them across. That's what im trying to get at here. a 'muslim' isnt the same as 'muslim haneefa'. A muslim haneefa truly has achieved the ideal you set.
-
Define for me mumin, thanks.
A mumin is one who has conviction in Allah, yaumul akhir, the rusul, kutub and malaika.
This is the traditionalist explanation which is not supported by the reading al-quran.
Did you give your own explanation or did you want to provide the traditional one? -
Really Stephane?
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (4/136)
Its good to check things before asserting. I've made that mistake myself but its good to always realign one's belief with the book. Hope the verse is clear enough for u )
-
Yes really seriously mq!
Really Stephane?
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (4/136)This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...
-
Joe,
Salaam,
Its good to check things before asserting.
Otherwise we'll end up saying things like Allah said he gave musa tauraat, etc.
out of curiousity - what does the taur?t/tor?h (are hey the same?) have to do with this thread?
kind regards,
St?phane -
This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
Ok, so ?
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...
-
Please tell me the name of one who performs the act of 'aamanu'.
-
When it tells 'alladhina aaamanu' to 'aaminu' in those things, what do you think happens to them?
-
Please show me the linguistic difference between the command tone from Allah and the encouraging tone.
-
-
This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
Ok, so ?
So what...what is it that that you're soing for?
- Please tell me the name of one who performs the act of 'aamanu'.
You're right, m?'m?n might be considered a synonyme thereof...I agree that far.
- When it tells 'alladhina aaamanu' to 'aaminu' in those things, what do you think happens to them?
I don't really get the question. It's like asking me "what do you think happens to the masseur as he is asked to give massage to customer X"
It is an invitation to do something, that's it.- Please show me the linguistic difference between the command tone from Allah and the encouraging tone.
I didn't say there is a difference. Regardless if there is a commandment, encouragement - this verse is not a definition of the word m?'m?n/alla??n 'aman? but contains an encouragement/commandment (call it whatever) to the ones that does have faith already.
-
-
So what...what is it that that you're soing for?
Because I have no idea why you said This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
You're right, m?'m?n might be considered a synonyme thereof...I agree that far.
ok.
I don't really get the question. It's like asking me "what do you think happens to the masseur as he is asked to give massage to customer X"
It is an invitation to do something, that's it.Invitation? these people who are being addressed are 'mumin'. The mumin say 'we hear and we obey' (2/285) so this is no 'invitation' . This is a command and its in command form.
I didn't say there is a difference. Regardless if there is a commandment, encouragement - this verse is not a definition of the word m?'m?n/alla??n 'aman? but contains an encouragement/commandment (call it whatever) to th ones that does have faith already
No, you didn't say there's a difference. Here's what you said
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...God's not running a feel-good course here. The mumin are told to believe in these things. They are not at liberty to choose between these things. Remember, mumin hear and obey. Of course, no one's forcing anyone to be a mumin.
-
Salaams SB,
you said" "
is it realy, and you can prove this then!
please show us.
Salaams.