THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
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Yes really seriously mq!
Really Stephane?
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (4/136)This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...
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Joe,
Salaam,
Its good to check things before asserting.
Otherwise we'll end up saying things like Allah said he gave musa tauraat, etc.
out of curiousity - what does the taur?t/tor?h (are hey the same?) have to do with this thread?
kind regards,
St?phane -
This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
Ok, so ?
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...
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Please tell me the name of one who performs the act of 'aamanu'.
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When it tells 'alladhina aaamanu' to 'aaminu' in those things, what do you think happens to them?
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Please show me the linguistic difference between the command tone from Allah and the encouraging tone.
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This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
Ok, so ?
So what...what is it that that you're soing for?
- Please tell me the name of one who performs the act of 'aamanu'.
You're right, m?'m?n might be considered a synonyme thereof...I agree that far.
- When it tells 'alladhina aaamanu' to 'aaminu' in those things, what do you think happens to them?
I don't really get the question. It's like asking me "what do you think happens to the masseur as he is asked to give massage to customer X"
It is an invitation to do something, that's it.- Please show me the linguistic difference between the command tone from Allah and the encouraging tone.
I didn't say there is a difference. Regardless if there is a commandment, encouragement - this verse is not a definition of the word m?'m?n/alla??n 'aman? but contains an encouragement/commandment (call it whatever) to the ones that does have faith already.
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So what...what is it that that you're soing for?
Because I have no idea why you said This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
You're right, m?'m?n might be considered a synonyme thereof...I agree that far.
ok.
I don't really get the question. It's like asking me "what do you think happens to the masseur as he is asked to give massage to customer X"
It is an invitation to do something, that's it.Invitation? these people who are being addressed are 'mumin'. The mumin say 'we hear and we obey' (2/285) so this is no 'invitation' . This is a command and its in command form.
I didn't say there is a difference. Regardless if there is a commandment, encouragement - this verse is not a definition of the word m?'m?n/alla??n 'aman? but contains an encouragement/commandment (call it whatever) to th ones that does have faith already
No, you didn't say there's a difference. Here's what you said
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...God's not running a feel-good course here. The mumin are told to believe in these things. They are not at liberty to choose between these things. Remember, mumin hear and obey. Of course, no one's forcing anyone to be a mumin.
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Salaams SB,
you said" "
is it realy, and you can prove this then!
please show us.
Salaams.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
Main entry SALIMA To be in sound condition well without a blemish safe and sound to surrender to submit blameless faultless clearly proven peace.
Main Entry AMINA To trust be secure be in safety pledge covenant faith
PBM Regardless, by definition, a muslim is one who surrenders to Allah, that is, the indivdual agrees not to be a polytheist. Mumin, that is, conviction, comes later. One, however, cannot reach the status of mumin until one is first a muslim and a muslim does not take other than Allah as his/her guidance.
Disagreed. Please look at this Say "We BELIEVE in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God we are MUSLIMEEN (3/84)
I don't see the point that you are trying to make with ayat 384.
PBM Conclusion Allah demands that only He be served, that is, only His Guidance be follwed. Once an individual takes two or more things for one's guidance, then one cannot claim to be a muslim and is in fact a mushrik.
Once again, disagreed. A muslim is one who submits. He may still have other dieties which he needs to get rid of like as such his own hawaa (25/43). Only when he's done this can he be 'haneefan muslimaan'...No, Ibrahim was called muslim as well as haneef. Therefore he didn't have the disease of shirik. This is different from bani israil who were muslim (as per firaun's recognition in 10/90) but resorted to worshipping the calf after Musa took them across. That's what im trying to get at here. a 'muslim' isnt the same as 'muslim haneefa'. A muslim haneefa truly has achieved the ideal you set.
In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim.
395 Say "(Allah) speaketh the Truth follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the polytheists."
395 Qul sadaqa Allahu fattabiAAoo millata ibraheema haneefan wama kana mina almushrikeen.
Once again, muslim and haneefan muslim, both share the common term----muslim. Muslim, is one who surrenders to Allah and only takes Him alone as God and Guide. Even before Allah mentions Abraham as being haneefan muslim, He identifies him as muslim and, further, Allah, defines muslim as one who is not of the polytheists, hence, you cannot make the term to mean a muslim can be of the polytheists, that would contradict Allah outright. Now, how deep this conviction is another matter, however, the muslim, by definition, stops taking other things as gods/guidance, hence, your quoting 2543, is incorrect. The person in 2543, of set purpose, takes himself/herself as a god, however, in contrast, the muslim renounces any such behavior. Haneefan and mumin, it is my understanding, speaks to a deepening of commitment towards serving Allah alone, however, the first requirement, being muslim/to renounce polytheism, that is, to serve Allah alone, is fulfilled once an individual says "I surrender".
Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Musa for example told his people to trust Allah if they are 'muslimeen'. Clearly, if his people were haneefan, he wouldn't need to say this for they would already be in that state.
What ayat are you referring to?
I repeat the following
Abraham, per ayat 2131, says that he surrenders to Allah and that made him a muslim at that point. In ayat 2135, Allah defines Abraham as not being one of the mushriks/polytheists. Now, in ayat 367, Abraham is defined as haneefan muslim and not a mumin. Remember now, the operative term here is muslim and not mumin and Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats. Do you believe that although Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats that, he had the disease of shirk? Nothing supports that notion at all. Haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that he uninhibited in his muslimness. Can we legitimately equate haneefan muslim and mumin? If so, why does Allah make a disticntion in these terms?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
Salaams SB,
you said" "
is it realy, and you can prove this then!
please show us.
Salaams.
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
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Peace PBM,
PBM In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim
I take the quran as a whole book, so that really doesn't affect my understanding. But what's your point with this statement?
Once again, muslim and haneefan muslim, both share the common term----muslim. Muslim, is one who surrenders to Allah and only takes Him alone as God and Guide. Even before Allah mentions Abraham as being haneefan muslim
If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Im thinking of this passage. See early chapter 9 please up to 9/11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brothers in ad-deen (fa ikhwaanukum fee ad-deen)..So brotherhood in ad-deen (you might remember that ad-deen in the sight of Allah is al-islaam) is defined by iqamussalaat and itauzzakaat. But who are the 'they' in the verse?
see 9/12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith (aimmatul kuffar)...
So you see, it is possible AFTER the submission to violate and return to the state of conflict and kufr.
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PEACE, MUQURAN,
PBM In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim.
I take the quran as a whole book, so that really doesn't affect my understanding. But what's your point with this statement? If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character. As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
PBM Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Im thinking of this passage. See early chapter 9 please up to 9/11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brothers in ad-deen (fa ikhwaanukum fee ad-deen)...So brotherhood in ad-deen (you might remember that ad-deen in the sight of Allah is al-islaam) is defined by iqamussalaat and itauzzakaat. But who are the 'they' in the verse? see 9/12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith (aimmatul kuffar)...So you see, it is possible AFTER the submission to violate and return to the state of conflict and kufr.If I'm not mistaken the ayats you are referring to are not talking about muslims, but the polytheists and unbelievers. Read the context beginning with 91.
Also, as I said prveviously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salam PBM,
My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character.
Haneefan doesn't mean 'uninhibited/bold/of powerful character'. It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
If I did, i'd be imam of mankind. But this question of yours is irrelevant to the discussion.
If I'm not mistaken the ayats you are referring to are not talking about muslims, but the polytheists and unbelievers. Read the context beginning with 91
.You're not mistaken. The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this. However, as I've pointed out, as soon as they step out of line, the Muslims are to fight their leaders. So they became kafir once again. Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
Also, as I said prveviously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Sir, Allah used the term 'haneefan muslimaan' so if you want to forget that, that's your business.
In my understanding a muslim is one who is outwardly in submission to God's laws. In his heart, he may bear the notions of shirik and kufr and he may rescind his islaam and fall prey to them. However, if he is haneefan musliman, this possibility is nullified. So far, I do not see this in contradiction with the book.
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peace mq,
The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this.
They are not 'Muslims'. Since they are akhw in ad-deen they become Muslims is an assumption. Please refute the following article which discusses this point extensively
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
They are not 'Muslims'. Since they are akhw in ad-deen they become Muslims is an assumption. Please refute the following article which discusses this point extensively
Please tell me what you think I mean when I say 'muslims' in this context. I don't think you need to prove to me that 'salat' isn't 'prayers', Wakas.
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Salaams SB,
You say
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
But you are missing ? I think, the point .When do you associate other gods with God.
Is making a statue and saying that is The God, Associating?
What is the quranic concept of Associating?
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?
I do strongly advice checking the ayah?s surrounding 4116 or anywhere such a statement accur ? as I noticed it is always saying this about people who are Zalimeen and not necessarily polytheists.
And remember people of the Book, who say God has a son, are polytheist as well ? I think.
Why are they forgivable?
Gods Blessings.
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peace mq,
Please tell me what you think I mean when I say 'muslims' in this context. I don't think you need to prove to me that 'salat' isn't 'prayers', Wakas.
lol Dude, I know that. Dont be put off by the title of the article, within it, it discusses the point you raised about twb, establish slw, bring zkw, akhw in dyn, dyn = islam, thus they = muslim.
From what I gather, you regard a 'muslim' as one who is outwardly submissive/compliant/conforming/submissive. This is not correct from my reading of 'al quran' in which a mindset/belief is also intermingled for one who is muslim, see 352, 380, 1084 for some examples.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
From what I gather, you regard a 'muslim' as one who is outwardly submissive/compliant/conforming/submissive. This is not correct from my reading of 'al quran' in which a mindset/belief is also intermingled for one who is muslim, see 352, 380, 1084 for some examples
Right, its possible to have belief intermingled, sure. However, the guys in 49/14 are clearly not mumin yet. This is where I'm going with this.
Suppose there's an an 'islamic' domain. Anyone who enters it, takes the oath to produce growth, that person's a muslim. However, we know there are guys who get in there but really don't believe in it. These guys may or may not work against the system, depending on which benefits them the most. So these guys are 'legally' muslim, but in the soul sense of the word, they have sowed the seeds of thier own destruction for lack of imaan.
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peace mq,
Suppose there's an an 'islamic' domain. Anyone who enters it, takes the oath to produce growth, that person's a muslim.
I disagree. Where did you get that? They would more closely be termed 'akhw' not 'muslim'. Strictly speaking, if one pledges to establish/uphold the bond (e.g. state law in this case) and bring forth betterment, they are 'akhw' , perhaps more closely called 'citizen' in your context.
So these guys are 'legally' muslim
As far as I'm aware, one cannot be legally 'muslim'.
By the way, I do agree with your original comments in this thread about 'muslim' having nothing to do with 'al quran'.
Wakas
