MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform

[unknownuser]

peace LT

In the strictest sense of the word, theocracy consists of two distinct terms "theo" which means "God" and "cracy" which means "form of government". Hence a true theocracy would be "Rule by God".

---

And now you want to offer your own interpretation of the above definition? OK then what is it?

That is excactly what it is. Rule by God. And that requires NO state institution whatsoever. It is an individual action and choice. If some people want a state institution to tell them what they can and cant, thats fine, but i want the choice not to be forced to take part in it.

Evidence of what? How democracy serves humanity best? Is that not self-evident in Europe compared to middle east or pakistan or Iran or North Korea?

So because you can mention systems that are worse, democracy becomes good? That we as a race have made the wrong choices since day one, and still do, does not mean what we have currently serve our interrests.

btw. heard this one; You cant buy alcohol in Iran, but you can get stoned

Is that best you can come up with. It failed because it was meant to?

It failed because it was DICTATORSHIP.

No it failed because it was meant to. it failed by design, and all you need to do is go to any good library AND STUDY! where it came from ,where the money came from etc.

You say only Elite govern. And now that I have shown you how a humble individual from humble beginings, from a Bengali minority, can rise to position of power in a democracy, you now say HE HAS NO POWER?

Absolutely ,just like Blair has no real power, just like Bush has no real power. The politcians put into power are just that, put into power by their masters. But perhaps you expect to see him rise to the level of prime minister? as if!

So what is it Noah? Do elites only govern or humble individuals from humble background can participate in the political process in the Houses of Parliament or the House of Lords- Like Mr. Shahid Malik or Lord Chouwdury or Lord Desai?

1.real power, sets the agenda
2.high echelon elite, promotes the agenda
3.prime ministers/presidents, enforce and promote the agenda (knowingly or not)
4.politicians, think they decide the agenda, wich they do as long as what they promote fit into the overall plan.
5.law enforcement, enforce the agenda on the microscale
6.the people, think they have a choice, wich they do. They can put anyone they want into point 4 but thats hardly power to the people.

add to this a fully controlled and privately owned press and banking system. yes LT you money isnt yours! they are DEBT notes! Wich you would know if you spend your time studying rather than listen to your own voice.

There are many more people like Shahid Malik who did not sit on their backsides and complained but worked hard to get where they are now. And they are making their voices heard.

voices hehe...yeah, but talking doesnt move the wheelbarrel does it?

Yes, you can say that because you have no idea of working hard to making your voice heard. You just sit on your backside and complain. This is typical adolescent behaivour! Growing up will help Noah.

wow that is a lot of assumption in one single paragraph LT, im impressed, its low even for you.
Let see. now that you feel that you know me, how about me letting you know me?

Born into a powerfull family of free masons. Dad is diplomat for the US government (and headhunted for the UN council and the world bank), uncle is the leader of the largest union in Denmark has been since forever, tho they claim its the members that keep choosing him. In a democratic process. Cousin, fastest blazing young politician in Denmark etc..

age 18, start record company
age 20, start production company
age 22 sell both of makes a lot of money
age 22 start E-learning company, get involved with local politics.
age 23 Make a famed - E-learning system for the largest insurance company in Denmark. Is chosen to represent the area in the politcal arena locally.
age 24, is asked to join seraphien masons, but blankly refuse
age 24 loose the contract all of a sudden
age 24 is asked to join seraphien masons as they are sure last time was an err. refuse again
age 24 go bankrupt as the bank withdraw the credit out of blue air, but was clever enough never to stand as responsible owner so the personal loss is minimal.
age 25 realise politics work by a sinister force behind it, that is coorporate and protective of its own interrests. Have several run ins with members who openly admit so. and tell me that if i go public they would just discredit me...same old procedure.
age 25 leave society to make my living like I chose to, by the rules that I accept. The rest is nothing but manipulation.

thats lazy to you? Know you kow me Lote Tree, so please stop assuming EVER again! It is offensive.

The real driver is the people but you can't see because you can't connect with people. You rather connect with a book instead.

wow LT, you never get tired of assuming do you? Seriosly, you need to do your homework. Im sorry that your whole world will crack if democracy shows to be equally rotten to every other system man have thought up just because you left the book.

If you are so connected to people you wouldnt need to assume as much as you do, or be as snide.

No the Ridicolous thing is sitting on your backside and doing nothing.

you ASSUME!

Mr. Shahid Malik, Lord Choudhury and Lord Desai and many others did not sit on the backsides but they did something about it. They worked hard to make their voices heard in the high places of government.

And what have they changed? So they had their voices heard, then what? what happened?

Mr. Shahid Malik certainly had no Gold

neither did Hitler or Staling, yet they managed to rise to power and ovrethrow their system. how can that be you think? again, look at where the money comes from.

..and yet he was able to participate in the political process in the Government of UK!

and that has changed what? All that bloodt talking does ont change the REAL problems that we have at all.

No seriously! No twisting done! It is you who don't understand the implications of what you say!

i fully understand what i say and ts implications. and nowhere did i say i support a dictator. so it was infact THE TWIST!

Dances

Because you can't get off your lazy backside

Assumption

and work to change things then you might as well just moan and complain and let the people that have some determination, courage and imagination like Mr. Shahid Malik and others to take up the challenge and have their voices heard...

thats a lot of talking these guys do, im more of an action, kind of guy.

I said what you replace DEMOCRACY with? and you said THEOCRACY.
And I know what theocracy means.

apparently you dont

Now you offer your interpretation of the definition of theocracy!

I just did

Regards

[unknownuser]

Franklin D. Roosevelt "The whole world is run by criminals, I want to make sure that we are represented by the best that we have"

(when people asked why he had chosen Joe Kennedy to go to england as prepresentative during the war. Kennedy whom everybody knew was a gangster. Gun running, prostitution, i mean ALL the filth)

[unknownuser]

Peace

Have you ever wondered why ministers have somone hired refered to in public as a "SPINdoctor". What might a spindoctor do? Make cofee and bake cake at the office? It would be a sad waste as nearly ALL of them are highly educated former press members who knows how to work the press and manipulate it.
This means in effect that the guy you got to elect based on his lies, s not even the guy talking to you! We all know that is how they get in. say one thing, and then just do whatever it pleases them. And when people )As predicted) moan about it, the spindoctor is put in position to tell everybody that they are wrong, that they just didnt understand what he was saying.

Then there is the legal lobbyism where large companys can legally pay for a persons campaign. But wait a minute? arent part of the politicians job to control these large bodys? wouldnt that be a clear conflict of interrest ad infact make the politician the companys whore? Do you honestly think a company sponsor millions of dollars for the good of their heart?

EDIT just remembered this verse

Free-Minds And do not consume your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers so that you may consume a part of the other people's money sinfully while you know!

Thousands of people have workd for the past 50 years in democracy's all over the world to change both because they are obviously completely insane. So far they havent succeded. why might that be?

So when yo uhave been lied to and accepted one lie over another, and now you have your guy in there, this guy and his peers have the right to put a few people in the board of direction of our national banks, the rest of the members are from privately owned organisations. Now wait a minute?
As money are THE MOST important institution in any society, wouldnt it be more "democratic" to make it a money system working for the people rather than one that enslaves them? Could it be that it was never the intention to begin with ?

Thousands of people have workd for the past 50 years in democracy's all over the world to change it becauseit is obviously completely insane. So far they havent succeded. why might that be?
is it that all these people simply doesnt have the requird talent? isnt that a little too easy an explanation?

If somebody steals you car, the coppers will take him. he will go to a court of "justice" get a fine and perhaps jail. How is that going to give you, your car back? what good does that do you?
However there are insurance companys fortunally that will give you a new car (perhaps). But wait a minute? Dont i end up paying for my own car once more as insurance isnt excactly free? what kind of justice is that?

In denmark this has been tried to change since the 50's. Many good men and woman have stood up and pointed out that state fines and jail is not equal justice for the offended. Nothing has changed, is that because all these good people just wasnt good enough? Or perhaps had a loud enough voice?

And it just goes on. On the surface democracy is the least bad system. But behind the scenes, it is as sinister as any dictatorship, as they have the same paymasters!

I warmly reccomed this book written by former member of congres for the republican party Gary Allen, released in 1972

http//reactor-core.org/pics/nonedare-199ae4c4.jpg
http//reactor-core.org/none-dare.html (free e-book)

Peace

[Andya_Primanda]

Noah, I must admit that at first I was skeptical of your conspiracy-theory sounding posts in the past, but after I read your background, I'm beginning to take your word more seriously.

[unknownuser]

Noah, I must admit that at first I was skeptical of your conspiracy-theory sounding posts in the past, but after I read your background, I'm beginning to take your word more seriously.

Look andy. even my dad openly admits that there is a conspiracy apperatus at work in the world. But he say, there is nothing that you can do about it, get the best out of it. And that is in my eyes the conspiracy itself. Sure there are the elite, but it is the mentality of the people that makes them so.

Its not like we spoke about masonry or things like that at the dinner table. Its more like the whole family knows why uncle has had that post he has forever, and will ahve untill he is carried out from there. I love my uncle, he is sweet and generous, but part of something evil to the bone. The whole family knows why dad (whom i love dearly) is hunted for those positiions. Because he accepts the system, and thus will work for it, and its promotion. Masonry is nothing but organised crime, tho to some of the lower degree (or socalled blue degrees) honestly belive it is a charity organisation, and are genuinely good people. Altso there is a big difference between different lodges, some are honest good people, and masonry is a social club. Others like seraphien...well. It might be charity, but dont you dare say no to them....sound more like mafia doesnt it?

Andy please read the book. He talks about why it is so important that we stop labeling hard critique of societys highest, as conspiracy. WE ALL belive in conspiracies, only someone decide wich ones were allowed to belive and wich are crackpot.

We went to war in Iraq based on a conspiracy theory about a mad gang of arabs.
we know that hitler burned the reichtag
we know nero set rome ablaze

why are we so stupid, as to think people crawing for power have stopped conspiring against is? why has the word conspiracy changed it meaning to mean, crackpot conspiracy THEORY?

Be aware of those who try to discredit the messenger so you dont get to hear the message brother

Peace

[Andya_Primanda]

It's just that before, I never actually met anyone who's actually been 'inside' before. Your background gave you more credibility than other sources, and your familiarity with us here means that it's easier to check on you, unlike other authors who are distant from us.

As I said, I believe you now. I'll pick up the book sometime... I had a feeling that I may have a lot of spare time ahead.

[unknownuser]

In the strictest sense of the word, theocracy consists of two distinct terms "theo" which means "God" and "cracy" which means "form of government". Hence a true theocracy would be "Rule by God".

That is excactly what it is. Rule by God.

Whose God? God of the Muslims?, God of the Jews? God of the Hindus? God of the Deist? God of the Philosphers? God of the Mystics?

In a society of individuals with different beliefs can you not see how absurd Theocracy is?

So because you can mention systems that are worse, democracy becomes good?

DEMOCRACY is the BEST of the worst types of government as I said before. And it has been borne out of human experiences of the our human past. Democracy is also an evolutionary ideal. It has evolved from its initial inception by the Ancient Greeks in their city states to the parliamentary democracy of the United Kingdom. Noah, democracy is indeed is flawed but we can work with DEMOCRACY to make it better. We can't do this with DICTATORSHIP or THEOCRACY! Can you not see this?

btw. heard this one; You cant buy alcohol in Iran, but you can get stoned

Good one -) And you still want a THEOCRACY Noah?

(regarding communism) Noah wrote
No it failed because it was meant to. it failed by design, and all you need to do is go to any good library AND STUDY! where it came from ,where the money came from etc.

Communism came from Karl Marx who spent years in the British Library! So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?

Some are born paranoid, some achieve the state of paranoia and some want paranoia thrust upon others!

You say only Elite govern. And now that I have shown you how a humble individual from humble beginings, from a Bengali minority, can rise to position of power in a democracy, you now say HE HAS NO POWER?

Absolutely ,just like Blair has no real power, just like Bush has no real power. The politcians put into power are just that, put into power by their masters. But perhaps you expect to see him rise to the level of prime minister? as if!

Blair and Bush has no power? So they are not to be blamed then when they went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because after all they have no power? So in effect even dictators don't have power in this world do they? So you can say even vile dictators are blameless. So all those millions died in the Russian Gulags was not the fault of Stalin because Stalin had no power!

1.real power, sets the agenda
2.high echelon elite, promotes the agenda
3.prime ministers/presidents, enforce and promote the agenda (knowingly or not)
4.politicians, think they decide the agenda, wich they do as long as what they promote fit into the overall plan.
5.law enforcement, enforce the agenda on the microscale
6.the people, think they have a choice, wich they do. They can put anyone they want into point 4 but thats hardly power to the people.

Who are these people then? Aliens from Planet Zog? David Ikes Lizard People? Shadow Armies of the FreeMasons or the Secretive Illumnati who hide their identity in Da Vinci paintings?

yes LT you money isnt yours! they are DEBT notes! Wich you would know if you spend your time studying rather than listen to your own voice.

Money is a human invention just like internet is a human invention. I don't own the internet just like you don't "own" money, you accumulate money. Money is the replacement for the barter system of trade of our ancient past, just like internet is the replacement for the telephone system of communications.

There are many more people like Shahid Malik who did not sit on their backsides and complained but worked hard to get where they are now. And they are making their voices heard.

voices hehe...yeah, but talking doesnt move the wheelbarrel does it?

In DEMOCRACY this is how we do things, not with guns and bullets as in a DICTATORSHIP or even THEOCRACY.

Born into a powerfull family of free masons. Dad is diplomat for the US government (and headhunted for the UN council and the world bank), uncle is the leader of the largest union in Denmark has been since forever, tho they claim its the members that keep choosing him. In a democratic process. Cousin, fastest blazing young politician in Denmark etc..

age 18, start record company
age 20, start production company
age 22 sell both of makes a lot of money
age 22 start E-learning company, get involved with local politics.
age 23 Make a famed - E-learning system for the largest insurance company in Denmark. Is chosen to represent the area in the politcal arena locally.
age 24, is asked to join seraphien masons, but blankly refuse
age 24 loose the contract all of a sudden
age 24 is asked to join seraphien masons as they are sure last time was an err. refuse again
age 24 go bankrupt as the bank withdraw the credit out of blue air, but was clever enough never to stand as responsible owner so the personal loss is minimal.

age 25 realise politics work by a sinister force behind it, that is coorporate and protective of its own interrests. Have several run ins with members who openly admit so. and tell me that if i go public they would just discredit me...same old procedure.
age 25 leave society to make my living like I chose to, by the rules that I accept. The rest is nothing but manipulation.

thats lazy to you? Know you kow me Lote Tree, so please stop assuming EVER again! It is offensive.

Sorry Noah, your writings does not say any of this previously. And I am not a mind reader!

Perhaps with your family background and connections it is easy to do all these things. And if you were that good why give up so easily? What I am seeing now is that you are a failed local politician and a failed business man too. And it seems you have made your personal failure a vendentta against the system that gave you so much opportunity to do these things. Trying and failing is not always bad. Sometimes we need to fail so that we can achieve even better things. Sometimes we need to taste that bitterness of failure to better ourselves. I have failed so many times Noah. And failure was constant theme in my life. Even now fear of failure still lurks in the background.

The real driver is the people but you can't see because you can't connect with people. You rather connect with a book instead.

wow LT, you never get tired of assuming do you? Seriosly, you need to do your homework. Im sorry that your whole world will crack if democracy shows to be equally rotten to every other system man have thought up just because you left the book.

DEMOCRACY is best of the rotten systems even theocracy. Do you not get this?

If you are so connected to people you wouldnt need to assume as much as you do, or be as snide.

I don't assume Noah, it is just that you don't grasp the implications of what you say.

Mr. Shahid Malik, Lord Choudhury and Lord Desai and many others did not sit on the backsides but they did something about it. They worked hard to make their voices heard in the high places of government.

And what have they changed? So they had their voices heard, then what? what happened?

Why don't you ask him?

..and yet he was able to participate in the political process in the Government of UK!

and that has changed what? All that bloodt talking does ont change the REAL problems that we have at all.

Thats how we do things in a democracy by talking not guns and bullets as in DICTATORSHIP and THEOCRACY.

and work to change things then you might as well just moan and complain and let the people that have some determination, courage and imagination like Mr. Shahid Malik and others to take up the challenge and have their voices heard...

thats a lot of talking these guys do, im more of an action, kind of guy.

Few years ago there were no people like Shahid Malik in government. And now there is. And there are more like him, talented, ambitious and determined to suceed. We need more people like him so that they can bring their brilliance and talent into the government and take up the challenges of the society that they live in and give it a new impetus for change and betterment for us all. If you are action type of guy thats good for you. But words can bring about such a momentus change in people and society as in the words of Martin Luther King "I have a dream...."

Regards,

[unknownuser]

Whose God? God of the Muslims?, God of the Jews? God of the Hindus? God of the Deist? God of the Philosphers? God of the Mystics?

In a society of individuals with different beliefs can you not see how absurd Theocracy is?

Nope, people should judge with what God has given them. The muslims by Qur'an, jews by the taurath etc.

DEMOCRACY is the BEST of the worst types of government as I said before. And it has been borne out of human experiences of the our human past. Democracy is also an evolutionary ideal. It has evolved from its initial inception by the Ancient Greeks in their city states to the parliamentary democracy of the United Kingdom. Noah, democracy is indeed is flawed but we can work with DEMOCRACY to make it better.

If that really was so, democracy would have been far better allready. 200 years is a long test period LT. It always end up comming down tot he same in all forms of governing. the golden rule. He who has the gold maketh the rule.

We can't do this with DICTATORSHIP or THEOCRACY! Can you not see this?

To you those are one and the same. to me they arent. In a theorcracy i would have certain imutable human rights. In a democracy those arent secured. And dont talk about iran etc, because we both know that they judge with anything but what God gave them.

Good one -) And you still want a THEOCRACY Noah?

Not based on hadeeth i dont. But to be a theocracy it would have to have something to do with God, wouldnt you agree?

Communism came from Karl Marx who spent years in the British Library!

Where he found a manifesto by a pesky baverian group, that years before had been arrested for conspiring against the state. The only speculation there is to this is whether he was payed to put his name to the documents, or simply was arrogant enough to steal it and present it as his own. I dont know. But fact is that his manifesto is 11 similar to that of the illumbrades.

So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?

Im not so sure that he saw it this way. Rather as the manifistation of the heagelian principle. So once again, to really understand anything in politics. Follow the money...and i suggest you do so lote tree.

Some are born paranoid, some achieve the state of paranoia and some want paranoia thrust upon others!

"All complex problems has easy, simple to understand wrong answers"

Blair and Bush has no power? So they are not to be blamed then when they went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because after all they have no power?

Twisting again are we? is it in lack of better that you do it? They are to be blamed as much as anyone participating in this system. Did i say they where blame free? its not like they seem to mins beind the pawn of evil.

So in effect even dictators don't have power in this world do they? So you can say even vile dictators are blameless. So all those millions died in the Russian Gulags was not the fault of Stalin because Stalin had no power!

Stalin didnt seem to mind being the pawn of evil like he was. Its all choices that we make ourself. Everyone in this sytem actively promoting it, is to blame. Not knowing is not even an excuse, because that makes you no less part of the problem.

Who are these people then? Aliens from Planet Zog? David Ikes Lizard People? Shadow Armies of the FreeMasons or the Secretive Illumnati who hide their identity in Da Vinci paintings?

None of the above. But it would be a very good idea to look into the royalty of the world, if you really want to know. It would be an even better idea to look into vatican money, and vatican connection to sweitzerland and what is known as international maritime admiralty law.
I have said it before and i will say it again as you obviously do not understand this simple concept...FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Money is a human invention just like internet is a human invention. I don't own the internet just like you don't "own" money, you accumulate money. Money is the replacement for the barter system of trade of our ancient past, just like internet is the replacement for the telephone system of communications.

wrong analogy. The internet is not contantly being made up out of thin air and then put under usury. When you go to the bank and loan 30.000. they dont go and fetch 30.000 in the bloody vault. They make a check account in your name worth 30.000 (you name makes the money), and then you have to pay that air back, with an amount of air you have got somewhere else. The danger is the boubles that this system create, and we have seen what happens numerous times when they burt, how whole countrys are thrown into depression and hunger.

Extract from a letter written by Rothschild Bros of London to a New York firm of bankers on 25 June 1863

"The few who can understand the System (Cheque Money and Credits) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class. While on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical (hostile, hurtful) to their interests."

Given this mans C.V i would claim that he properbly knows what he talks about.

In DEMOCRACY this is how we do things, not with guns and bullets as in a DICTATORSHIP or even THEOCRACY.

proof that you mix these two concepts up. And no, thats not how things are done. thats how you think things are done. Where in the Quran does it let us know that we are to govern eachother with bullets?

Sorry Noah, your writings does not say any of this previously. And I am not a mind reader!

then why are you assuming as much as you do? about others, about what we think, about what we "really" mean wit hwhat we say?

Perhaps with your family background and connections it is easy to do all these things. And if you were that good why give up so easily?

you are assuming that i gave up. Lote tree, you cannot read minds capich??

What I am seeing now is that you are a failed local politician and a failed business man too. And it seems you have made your personal failure a vendentta against the system that gave you so much opportunity to do these things.

you have no idea what happened. yet you are allready out guessing in the wild. Its amazing, you should be a novelist

Trying and failing is not always bad.

agreed

Sometimes we need to fail so that we can achieve even better things. Sometimes we need to taste that bitterness of failure to better ourselves. I have failed so many times Noah. And failure was constant theme in my life. Even now fear of failure still lurks in the background.

I fear failure in front of God. nothing else.

DEMOCRACY is best of the rotten systems even theocracy. Do you not get this?

Yes i have understood that YOU feel this way about democracy. I have reason to believe it is just another beast dressed up. It sure acts like it.

I don't assume Noah, it is just that you don't grasp the implications of what you say.

indeed i do.

Why don't you ask him?

becasue you brought it up. im asking you!

and that has changed what? All that bloodt talking does ont change the REAL problems that we have at all.

Thats how we do things in a democracy by talking not guns and bullets as in DICTATORSHIP and THEOCRACY.

Yes yes, but what did it change lote tree, your not even answering the question. just going off key again about dictators

Few years ago there were no people like Shahid Malik in government. And now there is. And there are more like him, talented, ambitious and determined to suceed. We need more people like him so that they can bring their brilliance and talent into the government and take up the challenges of the society that they live in and give it a new impetus for change and betterment for us all.

Like what, what has it changed that he is in there. be precise. did he get more food for the homeless on the streets? WHAT changed, because he is in there?

If you are action type of guy thats good for you. But words can bring about such a momentus change in people and society as in the words of Martin Luther King "I have a dream...."

So had mickey mouse, and none of them came true.

regards

[unknownuser]

Whose God? God of the Muslims?, God of the Jews? God of the Hindus? God of the Deist? God of the Philosphers? God of the Mystics?

In a society of individuals with different beliefs can you not see how absurd Theocracy is?

Nope, people should judge with what God has given them. The muslims by Qur'an, jews by the taurath etc.

Noah, you are indeed naieve! This forum is a testament to how you can't implement theocracy! We can't even agree on the meaning of Quranic verses, let alone do anything else! Samir and his blind believers will want everyone to be subservient to his hadith and sunnah and Islamic state! Damon will want to take his followers to an Island and setup a God alone society! Priest Bokmei wants us to eat pork because his understanding of Quran is different from yours. Shias want to be ruled by the secretive Mahdi etc. etc.

And what about the atheist? They don't want to be ruled by a God that they don't beleive in?
What will happen to them?

DEMOCRACY is the BEST of the worst types of government as I said before. And it has been borne out of human experiences of the our human past. Democracy is also an evolutionary ideal. It has evolved from its initial inception by the Ancient Greeks in their city states to the parliamentary democracy of the United Kingdom. Noah, democracy is indeed is flawed but we can work with DEMOCRACY to make it better.

If that really was so, democracy would have been far better allready. 200 years is a long test period LT. It always end up comming down tot he same in all forms of governing. the golden rule. He who has the gold maketh the rule.

It is better already. And will be better in the future. But we will have to work hard to make it better.

Tell me Noah, how many millions of its own citizen died under democracy? How many millions sent to gulags and prisons under a democracy?

You are Swedish. And Sweden is a very peacful society under democracy. Are the any gulags there where political prisoners are tortured and maimed?

To you those are one and the same. to me they arent. In a theorcracy i would have certain imutable human rights. In a democracy those arent secured.And dont talk about iran etc, because we both know that they judge with anything but what God gave them.

But can you not see in a Theocracy or dictatorship you can't do anything about it?

Good one And you still want a THEOCRACY Noah?

Not based on hadeeth i dont. But to be a theocracy it would have to have something to do with God, wouldnt you agree?

So THEOCRACY based on the Quran? But we can't even agree amongst ourselves the meaning of the Quranic verses! No, Noah I don't think you can have THEOCRACY because rule of God means different things to different group of people. And in a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs. Therefore only secular democracy is the only way forward where everyone participates in the democratic process and decides on how to govern themselves.

Communism came from Karl Marx who spent years in the British Library!

Where he found a manifesto by a pesky baverian group, that years before had been arrested for conspiring against the state. The only speculation there is to this is whether he was payed to put his name to the documents, or simply was arrogant enough to steal it and present it as his own. I dont know. But fact is that his manifesto is 11 similar to that of the illumbrades.

So more conspiracies? Where does it end? Lets put this things aside chap on focus on democracy!

So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?

Im not so sure that he saw it this way. Rather as the manifistation of the heagelian principle. So once again, to really understand anything in politics. Follow the money...and i suggest you do so lote tree.

So he now unwittingly created communism and unwittingly designed it so that it fails?
I think I will follow my sanity Noah -)

"All complex problems has easy, simple to understand wrong answers"

All complex problems can be explained away by conspiracies theories.
And all simple problems can be complicated by conspiracies theories.
-)

Blair and Bush has no power? So they are not to be blamed then when they went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because after all they have no power?

Twisting again are we? is it in lack of better that you do it? They are to be blamed as much as anyone participating in this system. Did i say they where blame free? its not like they seem to mins beind the pawn of evil.

Look I am tired of this game. You say Bush and Blair have no power and they are only puppets. And that they are only pawns at the hands of their shadowy masters. So if they have no power then they are not responsible for their actions are they?

So in effect even dictators don't have power in this world do they? So you can say even vile dictators are blameless. So all those millions died in the Russian Gulags was not the fault of Stalin because Stalin had no power!

Stalin didnt seem to mind being the pawn of evil like he was.

But he had no choice in becoming a evil pawn did he? since its the shadowy masters that select the pawns?

Who are these people then? Aliens from Planet Zog? David Ikes Lizard People? Shadow Armies of the FreeMasons or the Secretive Illumnati who hide their identity in Da Vinci paintings?

None of the above. But it would be a very good idea to look into the royalty of the world,

We have done away with Royalty. They are only figureheads now.
In the UK they are major tourist attractions. They have no power!

It would be an even better idea to look into vatican money, and vatican connection to sweitzerland and what is known as international maritime admiralty law.

Are you implying that vatican is the Shadowy masters? Who invented the Maritime Admiralty Law? Human beings? yes? Then we can replace it!

I have said it before and i will say it again as you obviously do not understand this simple concept...FOLLOW THE MONEY!

I say this again Money is a human invention to replace the barter system of the ancient past. And I also said if money is your problem then live in a Kibutzim!

wrong analogy. The internet is not contantly being made up out of thin air and then put under usury.

It is constantly expanding out of "thin-air" and more people are communicating with each other.

When you go to the bank and loan 30.000. they dont go and fetch 30.000 in the bloody vault.

And thats the problem you have? When you go to a bank for a loan you want them to count 30,000 notes and give them to you over the counter? Look chap commerce has moved on from our early days of trading with shells and bird feathers. Current monetary system is invented by human beings. If you think it is not working then invent one better that meets the need of the modern society!

"The few who can understand the System (Cheque Money and Credits) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class. While on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical (hostile, hurtful) to their interests."

Given this mans C.V i would claim that he properbly knows what he talks about.

Any system that ceases to be effective it will be changed. Just like communism was not effective and it was abandoned. Just like kingship was abandoned because it was not effective for the liberated individuals.

In DEMOCRACY this is how we do things, not with guns and bullets as in a DICTATORSHIP or even THEOCRACY.

proof that you mix these two concepts up. And no, thats not how things are done. thats how you think things are done. Where in the Quran does it let us know that we are to govern eachother with bullets?

Hey in Iran people are being publicly flogged for minor of offences like girls baring their hair! In a Theocracy the vast majority will not have any say in how they should be governed! And Quran is anti-democratic anway as well as anti-theoratic! So stop bringing Quran to support theocracy because it does not support theocracy!

Sometimes we need to fail so that we can achieve even better things. Sometimes we need to taste that bitterness of failure to better ourselves. I have failed so many times Noah. And failure was constant theme in my life. Even now fear of failure still lurks in the background.

I fear failure in front of God. nothing else.

I have no such fear Noah because I do not approach my "God" out of fear but only view to understand, appreciate, admire and love.

Yes i have understood that YOU feel this way about democracy. I have reason to believe it is just another beast dressed up. It sure acts like it.

Yes yes, but what did it change lote tree, your not even answering the question. just going off key again about dictators

A lot of things. Asians in the UK are now lot more confident in expressing their views, they are participating in the society where they came as penniless immigrants. They are becoming sucessful in businesses etc. They are represented in the local and national elections. Their voices are heard in the highest places in the government. Those that have succedded in businesses and other ventures taking up the challenge of social issues that concern their communities. And those that entered politics have managed to implement laws to protect and help the minorities like Race Equality, Incitement to Racial Hatred laws etc. etc.. and the list goes...these things would not have come about if people like Shahid Malik and Lord Chowdhuries sat on their backsides and did nothing...

If you are action type of guy thats good for you. But words can bring about such a momentus change in people and society as in the words of Martin Luther King "I have a dream...."

So had mickey mouse, and none of them came true.

At least micky mouse made people smile and happy -)
You make people sad and miserable and tell people to
chase after conspiracy theories -)

Regards,

[Edip_Yuksel]

I did not have chance to visit this forum for long time. As it seems, that among all the points I discussed in the Manifesto for Islamic Reform, my positive words about democracy created the most controversy.

Democracy, by definition, is respect to the choice of people regarding THEIR own lives and lifestyles. (I do not claim that the US is a democratically governed by democracy; democracy is mostly a packaging gimmick here).

The promoters of monarchies or aristocracies forget the fact that to rule others a person or a group must have legitimacy. The Quran chastised Muhammad for his tendency to become a monarch or a tyrant "wa ma anta alayhim bi musaytir," and ordered him to consult to the very people who elected him as their leader.

Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! Again, Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! He was selected by God as a messenger, but he was elected by people (muslims, and Yathrib's nasara, jews, and pagans) as their leader. So, his authority to govern among them came from their votes (beya), and his authority continued as long as he based his decision related to their affairs after consultation.

The pro-king crowd cannot see this fact. They confuse God's messengers with their corrupt kings. God's messengers risk their lives to change their societies. They are revolutionary leaders. They do not impose their message or system on people. They deliver the message of change to a hostile audience. They claim leadership over ONLY those who elect them... Thus, many messengers came and went without being able to establish the divine system among their people....

Democracy may not exist in the Quran as a word, many Quranic principles, such as consultation, freedom of choice, freedom of expression, multiple jurisdiction, rejection of accumulation of power through monopoly, defending the rights of the weak and oppressed fight against their rulers, all describe an ecology of a democratic system.

Furthermore, the following verse unequivocally supports the natural nature of democracy

"God will not change the situation of any community, unless they change themselves."

So, it is not upto an authoritarian king to change people, it is upto people to change their situation, which includes their leadership, their government and their way of life.

I reject any king (just or unjust) who claim authority over my affairs based on his genetic superiority or birth-right. However, I accept the just leaders who are elected by me and the community which I have chosen to join through a social contract.

Anti-democratic and backward people do not have any right to complain about the corruption of kings, oligarchs, or special interest, since, according to the Quran, "they accepted the oppression."

Peace,
Edip

[mquran]

Edip, when's your book on this issue coming out? I want to be the first to undertake its refutation and expose

Democracy, by definition, is respect to the choice of people regarding THEIR own lives and lifestyles. (I do not claim that the US is a democratically governed by democracy; democracy is mostly a packaging gimmick here).

Yesss, lets do that. Lets surrender to capitalists, binge-drinkers, sunni prayer-forcers and the like. Thier own lives seem to infringe on others by definition.

The promoters of monarchies or aristocracies forget the fact that to rule others a person or a group must have legitimacy. The Quran chastised Muhammad for his tendency to become a monarch or a tyrant "wa ma anta alayhim bi musaytir," and ordered him to consult to the very people who elected him as their leader.

Half the story as usual. 3/159 says 'fa izaa azamTA' so it was one guy alone who made decisions. Consulting doesn't mean accepting, it means consulting, getting opinions.

Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! Again, Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! He was selected by God as a messenger, but he was elected by people (muslims, and Yathrib's nasara, jews, and pagans) as their leader. So, his authority to govern among them came from their votes (beya), and his authority continued as long as he based his decision related to their affairs after consultation.

Show me proof that he was 'elected' so and so. Suddenly you dont find the need to back things up with verses? come on Edip, Daniel Lomax can do better than this!

The pro-king crowd cannot see this fact. They confuse God's messengers with their corrupt kings. God's messengers risk their lives to change their societies. They are revolutionary leaders. They do not impose their message or system on people. They deliver the message of change to a hostile audience. They claim leadership over ONLY those who elect them... Thus, many messengers came and went without being able to establish the divine system among their people....

Did God call David a CORRUPT king? If you find David irrelevant, say so. Don't be a coward and just overlook his existence in the book.

The author of the Quran seems to be part of the pro-king crowd. He included David, Solomon AND Ibrahim , who was placed by Allah as imam of mankind. Nowhere was he elected either.

IS THE QURAN IRRELEVANT , EDIP ?

If it is, say so. Be truthful about it. No one's gonna have a problem with you reneging on the ayat. You deleted 2 before anyway.

Democracy may not exist in the Quran as a word, many Quranic principles, such as

consultation,

After which the messenger decides and you have to obey him.

freedom of choice

limited to ones place. In an islamic domain, killing people is not a choice.

, freedom of expression,

asking to get people killed? is that ok in an islamic domain?

multiple jurisdiction,

false again. We are to be judged by Allah and his messenger.

rejection of accumulation of power through monopoly

Agreed here, but thats the command of Allah warasul, not the majority.

, defending the rights of the weak and oppressed fight against their rulers,

Same as above.

God will not change the situation of any community, unless they change themselves."

So, it is not upto an authoritarian king to change people, it is upto people to change their situation, which includes their leadership, their government and their way of life.

Where does the Quran charge a king with 'changing' people. David was given MULK, power. He cannot make people change, he just punishes them if they go wrong.

Anti-democratic and backward people do not have any right to complain about the corruption of kings, oligarchs, or special interest, since, according to the Quran, "they accepted the oppression."

Does your Quran not have info on David, Edip? Im just wondering cause you math-boys have a tendency to expunge.

[Jaxal]

Yesss, lets do that. Lets surrender to capitalists, binge-drinkers, sunni prayer-forcers and the like. Thier own lives seem to infringe on others by definition.

You are becoming like PB, missing the point. In a democratic society, that wont happen.

Consulting doesn't mean accepting, it means consulting, getting opinions.

Counsulting means getting the opinions of everyone , then making a decision with which everyone is happy. Also remembering you cannot make everyone happy. Where as in anti democrocy, when man makes decision and this decision is forced on to the others.

Show me proof that he was 'elected' so and so

Where is your proof for quran being anti-democratic? All i hear is rants over and over from you.

but... but...David!!

David's leadership wasnt force on anyone. Prove that he came into power by forcing his leadership. People didnt have a problem with his leadership. Unlike bush or saddam who forced themselves. There is a difference.

After which the messenger decides and you have to obey him.

Messenger of GOD. Why wouldnt you obey him?

freedom of choice

Freedom of choice to agree with the messenger or to disagree. The messenger wont torture people to death like Saddam.

Anti-democratic and backward people do not have any right to complain about the corruption of kings, oligarchs, or special interest, since, according to the Quran, "they accepted the oppression."

Completely agreed. Its their fault. They had it comming.

[unknownuser]

Noah, you are indeed naieve! This forum is a testament to how you can't implement theocracy!

It's actually more of a testament that i am right. These people should use their God given freedom to implement whatever system suits them on a personal level. Real simple. 2 rules...dont mess with me, and dont mess with my stuff, whatever else you do is none of my business.

We can't even agree on the meaning of Quranic verses, let alone do anything else!

These guys have made their own translation, and is still working to make it better. Thats not coorperating?
I know what i read in Quran and have faith in my Master, i hope other people have it the same way so they can use Quran as intended. as a tool to govern ourself, because if we do so. No tyrant government body is needed at all.

Samir and his blind believers will want everyone to be subservient to his hadith and sunnah and Islamic state!

I wish them the best of luck, but try to force me into it and i will shoot your ass dead.

Damon will want to take his followers to an Island and setup a God alone society!

I wish him the best of luck

Priest Bokmei wants us to eat pork because his understanding of Quran is different from yours.

I hope he knows what he is doing. I dont like pork, so its not a problem for me.

Shias want to be ruled by the secretive Mahdi etc. etc.

yeah, i mean whatever floats peoples boats really. Stay away from me, and do whatever you please, its all between you and God.

And what about the atheist? They don't want to be ruled by a God that they don't beleive in?
What will happen to them?

They shouldnt. and the rules are easy to understand and remember. So when it comes to the 2 basic rules regarding our interaction, if they mess with me or my stuff i will shoot them dead because my law gives me the right to do so, and as i make that perfectly known to people, they should have known before engaging. If on the other hand they respect my sovereignty, we are freinds all day long, and i always have a cuppa ready for people and a chatter

It is better already. And will be better in the future. But we will have to work hard to make it better.

Democracy is like the pc system. A hodgepodge of stuff collaborated from all over the place, ideas etc..and thats all it will ever be.

Tell me Noah, how many millions of its own citizen died under democracy?

Youre the one howling about how democracy serves MANKIND the best. Does it really matter WHERE democracy kills, or whom it kills? That has taken the cake as the most hipocrate thing i heard all day, and i have the radio running atm.

How many millions sent to gulags and prisons under a democracy?

Omg Dont get me started. Clever lobbyist have made hemp illegal, this means that a lot of functioning people are send to jail because they as adults chose to smoke pot. WTF?` Who on earth has the right to tell me what i can do with my body? NOONE!
In prison, there are forced labour because they have to pay for their own keep, allegedly. But many prisons are moneymaking machines, off all that wonderfull free labour. And if you can imprison people for no crime whateso ever, you have labour comming all the time.
The definition of a crime is

1.Something with a victim, and hurt part. (common law)
2.breaking a contract (international admiralty law)

But if you can con people into believing and accepting that they are under the bond of unrevealed contracts. Such as illigitimacy to smoke and grow weed, now you have them.
This is what we call consensus reality, where we just go along to get along, but is it lawfull? hell no it isnt lawfull its bollocks.

Lote Tree, the gulag of today is not involving officers in black and "moderate physical pressure" to make people talk. oh wait...yes it is. There is 1000's of those cases each year, and its accelerating both within , but mostly outside democracy, performed by the democracy.

You are Swedish. And Sweden is a very peacful society under democracy. Are the any gulags there where political prisoners are tortured and maimed?

Im from Denmark, and we have a high rank on amnestys list for the use of long time isolation Imprisonment. We are at war with Iraq, and with Afghanistan, wich is hardly peaceful. More and more money is being channeled outside the public arena. Our politicians are aggresively rightwing as evreywhere else atm. They openly admit that they want the social difference to grow, effectively eliminating the socalled middleclass, and create a defacto ruling elite, and the mob.

Oh yeah...things are great here. Lote tree, they just use different words now, but look at what is really happening. No amounts of honey words can change facts.

To you those are one and the same. to me they arent. In a theorcracy i would have certain imutable human rights. In a democracy those arent secured.And dont talk about iran etc, because we both know that they judge with anything but what God gave them.

But can you not see in a Theocracy or dictatorship you can't do anything about it?

about what? why would i want to do anything about my human rights, other than start to fight for them. to take them back from the hoard of people who think they have a right to it.

So THEOCRACY based on the Quran? But we can't even agree amongst ourselves the meaning of the Quranic verses!

read my lips...what you get out of Quran is your business. Just stick to the 2 basic rules and well get along fine.

No, Noah I don't think you can have THEOCRACY because rule of God means different things to different group of people.

yeah its great isnt it? all these wonderfull takes on something dear to us all. Be pleased with what God told you. But mess with me and amagonna...

And in a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs. Therefore only secular democracy is the only way forward where everyone participates in the democratic process and decides on how to govern themselves.

For those who wish to participate. i wish you the best of luck. Personally im sceptic about a lot of facts, that can be confirmd by anyone. Facts that might tell another tale as to how things are really done.

So more conspiracies? Where does it end? Lets put this things aside chap on focus on democracy!

Lote Tree we all belive in conspiracy. The difference between you and me is that i make and efford to try and find out what is rubbish or not.
The democracies went to war in iraq based on a conspiracy theory that included that

1.osama and saddam cooperated (lie)
2.saddam had WMD's (ofcourse he has, we sold them to him)

Thats what i am saying. NOTHING in the political aperatus happens by chance. Or in the words of H.Kissinger "if it happens in politics, it is because it was meant to". We didnt go to war based on flimsy intelligence repports. the powers that be knew excactly what they where doing, the rest of us were on a need to know basis. And they figured that we didnt need to know.

So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?

Im not so sure that he saw it this way. Rather as the manifistation of the heagelian principle. So once again, to really understand anything in politics. Follow the money...and i suggest you do so lote tree.

So he now unwittingly created communism and unwittingly designed it so that it fails?
I think I will follow my sanity Noah -)

Dont twist what i am saying Lote Tree i hate that. it is so disprespectful.

All complex problems can be explained away by conspiracies theories.
And all simple problems can be complicated by conspiracies theories.
-)

All problems go away by chanting "democracy is for the good of the people, democracy is for..."
Lote Tree, i have spend a lot of time with these things, you are free to belive what you want.

Look I am tired of this game. You say Bush and Blair have no power and they are only puppets. And that they are only pawns at the hands of their shadowy masters. So if they have no power then they are not responsible for their actions are they?

Because they willingly chose to be so, in return for a comfortable lifestyle. Hey fuck the people, i have a ferrari and a castle.
That would make them perfectly responsible for what is happening. It is the case of pontius pilatus. he wants to wash his hands, but how can he?

Do you even know how the Bush dynasty founded its fortune. My God Lote tree, read some other books than your own poems.

But he had no choice in becoming a evil pawn did he? since its the shadowy masters that select the pawns?

www.google.com key stalin+jesuits

We have done away with Royalty. They are only figureheads now.
In the UK they are major tourist attractions. They have no power!

Oh really? Take a look at these peoples money, where they are, how they are being used. These informations are avaible if you want to look for it. Not as a "12 steps to understand" guide, but bits here and there. Do this and then tell me that these people has no power.

Are you implying that vatican is the Shadowy masters? Who invented the Maritime Admiralty Law? Human beings? yes? Then we can replace it!

Not as long as we dont get to know about it. Remeber the game is being played on a need to know basis, and whoever the game masters is, figure that we dont need to know. How can people onfront a problem they dont know excists? We all know somethings amiss, and were told to look at all kinds of stuff, instead of the real problem. the very foundation that most of our states is build upon.

Have i said that the vatican are the hidden masters. no thats you thinking too much again. I have told you to look into them, if you want to get more of an idea of what is truely running the show.

A good analogy is Agetha Chisties "murder on the orient express" ...everybody has a motif to kill, and all of them valid. Too many clues to many possabilites, thats what traveling back through power structures in history is like. But soon you start to see patterns emerge, speciel groups keep reappering by its members over and over. Officially ofcourse they do not excist at all.

Like the bilderbergers. 10 years ago people was a laughing stock if they even believed in such a gathering of elites. Last week this interview was on the BBC...

http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4290944.stm

First were told there is no bilderberg group and that were nuts. Now all of a sudden there IS a bilderberg group, but its just a social club and old men smokng cigar..lets look at a quote

"I don't think (we are) a global ruling class because I don't think a global ruling class exists. I simply think it's people who have influence interested to speak to other people who have influence," Viscount Davignon says.

Now thats all good. He says were just being paranoid, that there are not ruling elite. But lets take a closer look at what he is really saying through the newspeak filter.

. I simply think it's people who have influence interested to speak to other people who have influence," Viscount Davignon says.

translated into normal english We are infact an elite, that meets up with other elites in powerfull positions, and talk to them.

Jut more lies to the pile about the control of democracy

I say this again Money is a human invention to replace the barter system of the ancient past. And I also said if money is your problem then live in a Kibutzim!

I cannot figure out if you wont understand what im wying to you, or you simply do not have the capacity to understand. The financial system is malevolent, it is dangerous to us. Obviously by design, all information avabile on the homepage of your national bank. Get a good dictionary so you understand the legal term that they use. Because the words does rarely mean what you think they do

I said nothing about returning to barter system did i. Im saying that what we have now is too dangerous to allow to continue. for the good of mankind.

And thats the problem you have? When you go to a bank for a loan you want them to count 30,000 notes and give them to you over the counter?

No i want the credit otes to be backed by an agreed to value other than air. The normal agreed to value is gold. So currencies are goldbacked. However, the strongest curreny atm is the euro and that is backed by 40% solid gold. In other words, the note you get is 60% worth LESS than what you think it is. And its infalting. why? because of all the interrest money created in this system.
Its like a baloon. You push more and more air into it, and the minute it burst, you will be happy if your the one with the original real agreed upon value. in this case gold.

Look chap commerce has moved on from our early days of trading with shells and bird feathers. Current monetary system is invented by human beings. If you think it is not working then invent one better that meets the need of the modern society!

Many has tried, all ahve failed. there is a pattern to this. lets see....yes..."someone" does not want to remove the malevolent system and replace it for a favorable one to the people. why?

Any system that ceases to be effective it will be changed. Just like communism was not effective and it was abandoned. Just like kingship was abandoned because it was not effective for the liberated individuals.

And just like democracy will be next. My kind are growing in numbers. No system. Systems are malevolent, or will become so.

Hey in Iran people are being publicly flogged for minor of offences like girls baring their hair! In a Theocracy the vast majority will not have any say in how they should be governed!

i just told you not to go into iran, etc...those countrys does not have theocracy. they have madness. They do i no way apply to my view on a theocracy.

And Quran is anti-democratic anway as well as anti-theoratic! So stop bringing Quran to support theocracy because it does not support theocracy!

Thats pretty much what im saying. You just dont get it. theocracy is selfgoverning. Not a bunch of mulahs.

I have no such fear Noah because I do not approach my "God" out of fear but only view to understand, appreciate, admire and love.

good for you. thanks for the twist btw.

A lot of things. Asians in the UK are now lot more confident in expressing their views, they are participating in the society where they came as penniless immigrants. They are becoming sucessful in businesses etc. They are represented in the local and national elections. Their voices are heard in the highest places in the government. Those that have succedded in businesses and other ventures taking up the challenge of social issues that concern their communities. And those that entered politics have managed to implement laws to protect and help the minorities like Race Equality, Incitement to Racial Hatred laws etc. etc.. and the list goes...these things would not have come about if people like Shahid Malik and Lord Chowdhuries sat on their backsides and did nothing...

ACtually it would. but it would require that everybody sat down and did nothing for a while. it would require that people regained their natural freedom rather than trying to fix a broke system.

At least micky mouse made people smile and happy -)
You make people sad and miserable and tell people to
chase after conspiracy theories -)

LT even my da who works in the middle of the beast, will openly tell you that there are a conspiracy running. in fact several at any given time. The only difference betwen him and me is that he use his konwledge to play along with the game and get rich. I refuse to play the game at all.

And a guy like you...well. An unaware ,unknowing slave. altho a happy one, and im happy for you

Regards

[unknownuser]

Noah, you are indeed naieve! This forum is a testament to how you can't implement theocracy!

It's actually more of a testament that i am right. These people should use their God given freedom to implement whatever system suits them on a personal level.

Noah, I am losing you! Before we agreed that THEOCRACY IS THE RULE of GOD as opposed to DEMOCRACY which is the RULE of the PEOPLE.

Now you are saying THEOCRACY is implementing whatever system suits individual on a personal level! This is not THEOCRACY is it?

Real simple. 2 rules...dont mess with me, and dont mess with my stuff, whatever else you do is none of my business.

Noah this is nonesense. In a society of Individuals we need set of rules that everyone can live by and these rules must be such that they serve us a society best. In THEOCRACY these Rules are from Scripture (or written in stone like the ten commandments by the hand of God). In democracy the people decide on a set of rules that serves them best as a society.

We can't even agree on the meaning of Quranic verses, let alone do anything else!

These guys have made their own translation, and is still working to make it better. Thats not coorperating?

I know what i read in Quran and have faith in my Master, i hope other people have it the same way so they can use Quran as intended. as a tool to govern ourself, because if we do so. No tyrant government body is needed at all.

While you do that Noah, let us SANE people try to make democracy just little better so that everyone in a society can be free to implement their own "system" between their "God" and themselves within themselves and yet we can still have a government by the people for the people.

I wish them the best of luck, but try to force me into it and i will shoot your ass dead.

This is what DEMOCRACY is about, not ruling by force but by consent of the people.

And what about the atheist? They don't want to be ruled by a God that they don't beleive in?
What will happen to them?

They shouldnt. and the rules are easy to understand and remember. So when it comes to the 2 basic rules regarding our interaction, if they mess with me or my stuff i will shoot them dead because my law gives me the right to do so, and as i make that perfectly known to people, they should have known before engaging.

I don't understand you Noah. What are you talking about? How to govern ouserself as a society or how to govern ourself as an individual - i.e implementing a system on a personal level? If latter is the case then I say to you No man is an Island. We are part of the whole. We will always need rules to govern ouselves as a society.

Democracy is like the pc system. A hodgepodge of stuff collaborated from all over the place, ideas etc..and thats all it will ever be.

Yes, that is good analogy. Democracy allows talent of every individual to flourish. And the better the ideas those ideas will become used more and more. And if you look at the growth of the PC from its beginings then you can realise how this "hodpodge" of technology is bringing humanity to closer together...

Tell me Noah, how many millions of its own citizen died under democracy?

Youre the one howling about how democracy serves MANKIND the best. Does it really matter WHERE democracy kills, or whom it kills? That has taken the cake as the most hipocrate thing i heard all day, and i have the radio running atm.

It does serve mankind best. Democractic governments are more sucessful than the DICTATORIAL governments. Just compare North Korea and South Korea. While Norht Korea sings praises hymns to its "Great Leader" in poverty, south Korea is making a sucess of itself. So more democracies we have the better it will serve humanity. Can you not see this?

How many millions sent to gulags and prisons under a democracy?

Omg Dont get me started. Clever lobbyist have made hemp illegal, this means that a lot of functioning people are send to jail because they as adults chose to smoke pot.

And this compares to DICTATORS sending millions to gulags to be tortured and maimed?

Who on earth has the right to tell me what i can do with my body? NOONE!

Yes, thats right! You can top yourself. You can drink yourself to death! You can free to have as many body piercings as you like even though the metals will poison your body and kill you. You are free to smoke tobacco although it causes cancer. Even with these freedoms you are not happy. But you want to smoke weed and thats the freedom you desire so go and make it legal. And if there is enough support for it to be legal then it will be made legal and thats how democracy works. And if you can't make it legal in the country you live DEMOCRACY allows the freedom for you to leave it. So perhaps know Amstradam? The Pot is legal there!

In prison, there are forced labour because they have to pay for their own keep, allegedly.

Prison is not a holiday inn. Prison is a punishment!

But many prisons are moneymaking machines, off all that wonderfull free labour.

Whats wrong prisoners giving their labour for free to the community they have hurt by their crime? Prison is not a holiday destination. Its a punishment.

The definition of a crime is
1.Something with a victim, and hurt part. (common law)
2.breaking a contract (international admiralty law)

But if you can con people into believing and accepting that they are under the bond of unrevealed contracts. Such as illigitimacy to smoke and grow weed, now you have them.
This is what we call consensus reality, where we just go along to get along, but is it lawfull? hell no it isnt lawfull its bollocks.

We have gone from discussing DEMOCRACY to definition of crime!
What next Noah?

Lote Tree, the gulag of today is not involving officers in black and "moderate physical pressure" to make people talk. oh wait...yes it is. There is 1000's of those cases each year, and its accelerating both within , but mostly outside democracy, performed by the democracy.

You compare millions dying at the hands of the DICTATOR to above?

Im from Denmark, and we have a high rank on amnestys list for the use of long time isolation Imprisonment. We are at war with Iraq, and with Afghanistan, wich is hardly peaceful. More and more money is being channeled outside the public arena. Our politicians are aggresively rightwing as evreywhere else atm. They openly admit that they want the social difference to grow, effectively eliminating the socalled middleclass, and create a defacto ruling elite, and the mob.

Still its nothing like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, North Korea or Iran is it?

Oh yeah...things are great here. Lote tree, they just use different words now, but look at what is really happening. No amounts of honey words can change facts.

No, Noah. You have no Idea what you have got!
I suggest you go and live in Pakistan for a while Noah. Perhaps you might have a different perspective.

To you those are one and the same. to me they arent. In a theorcracy i would have certain imutable human rights. In a democracy those arent secured.And dont talk about iran etc, because we both know that they judge with anything but what God gave them.

But can you not see in a Theocracy or dictatorship you can't do anything about it?

about what? why would i want to do anything about my human rights, other than start to fight for them. to take them back from the hoard of people who think they have a right to it.

In a theocracy or DICTATORSHIP you have no chance of changing the government peacefully!

No, Noah I don't think you can have THEOCRACY because rule of God means different things to different group of people.

yeah its great isnt it? all these wonderfull takes on something dear to us all. Be pleased with what God told you. But mess with me and amagonna...

I am baffled -(

And in a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs. Therefore only secular democracy is the only way forward where everyone participates in the democratic process and decides on how to govern themselves.

For those who wish to participate. i wish you the best of luck. Personally im sceptic about a lot of facts, that can be confirmd by anyone. Facts that might tell another tale as to how things are really done.

David Ike also has views like you so don't feel alone. Two is company, three is a crowd -)

Lote Tree we all belive in conspiracy. The difference between you and me is that i make and efford to try and find out what is rubbish or not.

No, I don't believe in conspiracies. There are no shadowy masters at work in this world. All I can see is that some people are motivated by greed and power and others are motivated by compassion and love. It is greed and power that motivates the unscruplous amongst us. But greed can be overcome by cultivating and nurturing compassion in others and ourselves. But just as there are few unscrupolous amongst us there are many of people of impeccable integrity too.

The democracies went to war in iraq based on a conspiracy theory that included that

1.osama and saddam cooperated (lie)
2.saddam had WMD's (ofcourse he has, we sold them to him)

Thats what i am saying. NOTHING in the political aperatus happens by chance. Or in the words of H.Kissinger "if it happens in politics, it is because it was meant to". We didnt go to war based on flimsy intelligence repports. the powers that be knew excactly what they where doing, the rest of us were on a need to know basis. And they figured that we didnt need to know.

This is irrelvant to our discussion in how we govern ourselves as a society! Do you not get this?

Im not so sure that he saw it this way. Rather as the manifistation of the heagelian principle. So once again, to really understand anything in politics. Follow the money...and i suggest you do so lote tree.

So he now unwittingly created communism and unwittingly designed it so that it fails?
I think I will follow my sanity Noah

Dont twist what i am saying Lote Tree i hate that. it is so disprespectful.

You say "Rather as the manifestation of the heagelian principle", in another words he unwittingly! Where is the twist?

All complex problems can be explained away by conspiracies theories.
And all simple problems can be complicated by conspiracies theories.

All problems go away by chanting "democracy is for the good of the people, democracy is for..." Lote Tree, i have spend a lot of time with these things, you are free to belive what you want.

DEMOCRACY is getting to reality. Conspiracy are the products of a "smoked" mind. And I am not asking you to believe in democracy Noah. This is nothing to do with religion but a pragmatic approach in how to govern ourself as a society of individuals.

Because they willingly chose to be so, in return for a comfortable lifestyle. Hey **** the people, i have a ferrari and a castle. That would make them perfectly responsible for what is happening.

There are also people of integrity too Noah eg. People like Tony Ben.

Do you even know how the Bush dynasty founded its fortune. My God Lote tree, read some other books than your own poems.

Perhaps you should read other books instead of Eric Von Daniken and David Ike?

Oh really? Take a look at these peoples money, where they are, how they are being used. These informations are avaible if you want to look for it. Not as a "12 steps to understand" guide, but bits here and there. Do this and then tell me that these people has no power.

They have no political power. And in time they will dissappear as figure heads too!

Not as long as we dont get to know about it. Remeber the game is being played on a need to know basis, and whoever the game masters is, figure that we dont need to know. How can people onfront a problem they dont know excists? We all know somethings amiss, and were told to look at all kinds of stuff, instead of the real problem. the very foundation that most of our states is build upon.

Have i said that the vatican are the hidden masters. no thats you thinking too much again. I have told you to look into them, if you want to get more of an idea of what is truely running the show.

What is surpressed always comes out. Nothing remains hidden. Just like Auschwitze and the Gulags revelaed their deadly secrets!

A good analogy is Agetha Chisties "murder on the orient express" ...everybody has a motif to kill, and all of them valid. Too many clues to many possabilites, thats what traveling back through power structures in history is like. But soon you start to see patterns emerge, speciel groups keep reappering by its members over and over. Officially ofcourse they do not excist at all.

Agatha Christie reader? You mean miss marple mysterys. I see you have fondness for fictions!

First were told there is no bilderberg group and that were nuts. Now all of a sudden there IS a bilderberg group, but its just a social club and old men smokng cigar..lets look at a quote

Perhaps that is what it is? Like Victorian Reform clubs? Where not only men of wealth and power met but also inventors, merchants etc?

"I don't think (we are) a global ruling class because I don't think a global ruling class exists. I simply think it's people who have influence interested to speak to other people who have influence,"

So whats so shadowy about that?

I simply think it's people who have influence interested to speak to other people who have influence," Viscount Davignon says.

Have you read about the "field of Gold" meeting between King of France and King of England?

translated into normal english We are infact an elite, that meets up with other elites in powerfull positions, and talk to them.

How did these people get into position of power? Did they work hard and make a lot of money? Where they inventors like vacuum cleaner maker Mr. Dyson. He is now billionaire. So he has lot of money, power and influence? - is that wrong?

I cannot figure out if you wont understand what im wying to you, or you simply do not have the capacity to understand.

Don't flatter yourself too much Noah, it makes you look impressive but you are not -)

The financial system is malevolent, it is dangerous to us. Obviously by design, all information avabile on the homepage of your national bank. Get a good dictionary so you understand the legal term that they use. Because the words does rarely mean what you think they do

Have you heard of Dr Yunis of Mirco Credit fame?
You talented enough to invent something that went against the big bank's philosphy of letting to the credit worthy. It is these people will change the system not people like you.

I said nothing about returning to barter system did i. Im saying that what we have now is too dangerous to allow to continue. for the good of mankind.

Don't worry if it is not good for mankind then it will be changed without any fan fare, just we have changed many things in the past. So sleep easily Noah -)

No i want the credit otes to be backed by an agreed to value other than air. The normal agreed to value is gold. So currencies are goldbacked. However, the strongest curreny atm is the euro and that is backed by 40% solid gold. In other words, the note you get is 60% worth LESS than what you think it is. And its infalting. why? because of all the interrest money created in this system. Its like a baloon. You push more and more air into it, and the minute it burst, you will be happy if your the one with the original real agreed upon value. in this case gold.

Then know that monetary system is not simple as printing new bank notes!

Many has tried, all ahve failed. there is a pattern to this. lets see....yes..."someone" does not want to remove the malevolent system and replace it for a favorable one to the people. why?

Be positive Noah. Believe in the human spirit.

Any system that ceases to be effective it will be changed. Just like communism was not effective and it was abandoned. Just like kingship was abandoned because it was not effective for the liberated individuals.

And just like democracy will be next. My kind are growing in numbers. No system. Systems are malevolent, or will become so.

Democracy is a next experiment Noah. We are not sure how it will work out. But one thing is for sure, there will be no return to Kingship, Dictatorship or even theocracy!

Thats pretty much what im saying. You just dont get it. theocracy is selfgoverning. Not a bunch of mulahs.

No chap. This is not what you have said. You Theocracy is rule of God but now its not. Its now about you and your God.

A lot of things. Asians in the UK are now lot more confident in expressing their views, they are participating in the society where they came as penniless immigrants. They are becoming sucessful in businesses etc. They are represented in the local and national elections. Their voices are heard in the highest places in the government. Those that have succedded in businesses and other ventures taking up the challenge of social issues that concern their communities. And those that entered politics have managed to implement laws to protect and help the minorities like Race Equality, Incitement to Racial Hatred laws etc. etc.. and the list goes...these things would not have come about if people like Shahid Malik and Lord Chowdhuries sat on their backsides and did nothing...

ACtually it would. but it would require that everybody sat down and did nothing for a while. it would require that people regained their natural freedom rather than trying to fix a broke system.

You can sit down Noah and have a rest -)

LT even my da who works in the middle of the beast, will openly tell you that there are a conspiracy running. in fact several at any given time. The only difference betwen him and me is that he use his konwledge to play along with the game and get rich. I refuse to play the game at all.

For every person like your dad there are also decent people working to make the world better.

And a guy like you...well. An unaware, unknowing slave. altho a happy one, and im happy for you

Thank you very much. I like reality best -)

Regards,

[unknownuser]

Noah, I am losing you! Before we agreed that THEOCRACY IS THE RULE of GOD as opposed to DEMOCRACY which is the RULE of the PEOPLE.

Now you are saying THEOCRACY is implementing whatever system suits individual on a personal level! This is not THEOCRACY is it?

Indeed it is. i am governed by God allready, so im allready living in a state of theocracy. What other people do with what they think God wants them to do is their business.

Noah this is nonesense. In a society of Individuals we need set of rules that everyone can live by and these rules must be such that they serve us a society best.

Its just not happening like that, nor was it ever intended. I am bound by no contract to my knowledge that binds me to respect democracy. There are rules, there are thousands of rules, does this make people behave any better? not at all. Its merely an illusion.

In THEOCRACY these Rules are from Scripture (or written in stone like the ten commandments by the hand of God). In democracy the people decide on a set of rules that serves them best as a society.

Im down with the 10 commandments, no problem.

While you do that Noah, let us SANE people try to make democracy just little better so that everyone in a society can be free to implement their own "system" between their "God" and themselves within themselves and yet we can still have a government by the people for the people.

Are you implying that i am insane? Does that go for everybody that doesnt agree with your lala view on democracy?

call me when you succeed. because so far the people has been governed by just about anyone but themself. Its nice to hear you talk about what the democratic intention are, its just not reality.

This is what DEMOCRACY is about, not ruling by force but by consent of the people.

and concent they will get, even if it means lying, distorting and propagading. So are the people making choices based on actual knowledge or on whatever whims flys in the political arena atm.

I don't understand you Noah. What are you talking about? How to govern ouserself as a society or how to govern ourself as an individual - i.e implementing a system on a personal level? If latter is the case then I say to you No man is an Island. We are part of the whole. We will always need rules to govern ouselves as a society.

So you claim. 10.000 years of known history speaks against you. All systems turn tyrant, the real question is why?

Yes, that is good analogy. Democracy allows talent of every individual to flourish.

Given that they agree to what the champions of democracy or masters that be , think.

And the better the ideas those ideas will become used more and more.

Given that they suit the overall agenda, og making a few richer at the expense of everyone else.

And if you look at the growth of the PC from its beginings then you can realise how this "hodpodge" of technology is bringing humanity to closer together...

And at the same time spawned and endless amount of unsovlable problems. So the tool that was meant to speed up our processing in fact, counted in man hours. slows us down. Why? because it was a hodgepodge to begin with, and it is still a hodgepodge, alltho a faster one. Not better, just faster. And the same thing will happen, and is happening with democracy.

It does serve mankind best. Democractic governments are more sucessful than the DICTATORIAL governments. Just compare North Korea and South Korea. While Norht Korea sings praises hymns to its "Great Leader" in poverty, south Korea is making a sucess of itself. So more democracies we have the better it will serve humanity. Can you not see this?

I refuse, unlike you, to overlook the cost that all this "prosperity" comes along with. It does not break even. So shjould i justbe happy that i am on the right side of the fence, or should i be insulted that nobody else seems to mind sailing along in the blood of others.

And this compares to DICTATORS sending millions to gulags to be tortured and maimed?

Doesnt it? fraudulent laws, designed to put people that are not criminals behind bars. To exploit cheap labour? Who cares if the system kills them or not, they are still being battered often, and brutality is an everyday happening.

Yes, thats right! You can top yourself. You can drink yourself to death! You can free to have as many body piercings as you like even though the metals will poison your body and kill you. You are free to smoke tobacco although it causes cancer. Even with these freedoms you are not happy. But you want to smoke weed and thats the freedom you desire so go and make it legal.

WRONG...no one had the right to make it illegal to begin with. Im am to change NOTHING!

And if there is enough support for it to be legal then it will be made legal and thats how democracy works. And if you can't make it legal in the country you live DEMOCRACY allows the freedom for you to leave it. So perhaps know Amstradam? The Pot is legal there!

But the financial fraudulent system is the same. Its impossible to escape it as its implementet throughout the world. Why do you think that we have a world bank Lote tree?

Prison is not a holiday inn. Prison is a punishment!

So its fair to punish crimes not commited? who is the victim of pot smoking? who is the victim of going bankrupt (yes that will get you to prison these days) etc..

Whats wrong prisoners giving their labour for free to the community they have hurt by their crime? Prison is not a holiday destination. Its a punishment.

Problem is. too many of them are not even criminals.

We have gone from discussing DEMOCRACY to definition of crime!
What next Noah?

You brought up the gulags. i demonstrated how there is gulags in a democracy, we just call t something else, by changin lawfull definitions of a criminal. Remember, its not facsism when WE do it.

You compare millions dying at the hands of the DICTATOR to above?

No but i easily compare it to millions dying at the hands of democracy and foorporate fascism.

Still its nothing like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, North Korea or Iran is it?

When you compare bad to worse, bad will look good. It just doesnt make bad good enough. sorry your logic is flawed.

No, Noah. You have no Idea what you have got!
I suggest you go and live in Pakistan for a while Noah. Perhaps you might have a different perspective.

Im not interrested in living in pakistan, i have no connection to the culture there. I see more posabilites than 2 lote tree. To me its not either pakistan or London. I have the option of opting out. Wich i did.

In a theocracy or democracy you have no chance of changing the government peacefully!

In a theocracy i have no government above me.

I am baffled -(

and stubborn too, but dont worry i still like you Lote Tree

David Ike also has views like you so don't feel alone. Two is company, three is a crowd -)

And and so does alex jones, Jordan Maxwell, Eric jon Phelps, and a holw lot of other people. What are you trying to say?

No, I don't believe in conspiracies.

So there is no iraq war now?

There are no shadowy masters at work in this world. All I can see is that some people are motivated by greed and power

Excactly!...that is it!

and others are motivated by compassion and love.

i sure hope so

It is greed and power that motivates the unscruplous amongst us. But greed can be overcome by cultivating and nurturing compassion in others and ourselves.

You have history against you. the only way to be sure greed does not become dangerous to the whole human family is by limiting its chances to go global. The more centralised the power, the easyer it is to misuse on a grand scale.

But just as there are few unscrupolous amongst us there are many of people of impeccable integrity too.

Unfortunally they are not as "popular" as the greedy ones. Money makes freinds (while you have them)

This is irrelvant to our discussion in how we govern ourselves as a society! Do you not get this?

No it is very important, dont you get this. Dont you get how democracy easily becomes a dangerous tool of chaos and destruction. So what if the people within the democracy have a jolly time, it is at the expense of others, and that is by all means unacceptable.

You say "Rather as the manifestation of the heagelian principle", in another words he unwittingly! Where is the twist?

It is possible to admire certain principles without having invented them youself....say...like democracy. Im not sure that he thought it would fail. Those who gave hjim the money to succed, knew it would fail. they pretty much counted on it, but needed an axis of evil, to have a constant "them and us" situation handy whenever something needed a smoke screen. Oldest trick in the book, that is. Today the axis of evil is the arabs, next it will be someone else. The status quo will remeain intact.

DEMOCRACY is getting to reality.

interresting. You have made a bad case so far.

Conspiracy are the products of a "smoked" mind.

So there is no war in Iraq. Hitler didnt burn the reichstag, nero didnt set rome ablaze? ...all these things was claimed upfront by "conspiracy theorists" trying to warn people of what was comming.

And I am not asking you to believe in democracy Noah. This is nothing to do with religion but a pragmatic approach in how to govern ourself as a society of individuals.

You have to believ in a syustem to abide by it. I dont belive in democracy, its flaws are too obvious and its dangers to apparent atm.

There are also people of integrity too Noah eg. People like Tony Ben.

yes, im not saying there are no good people. In fact i have praised them earlyer. But i find their work to be in vain.

Perhaps you should read other books instead of Eric Von Daniken and David Ike?

Perhaps you should assume less. i have never even read a book of any of the afore mentioned lol.
You never get tired of guessing do you? it is lack of actual data that makes you do it, isnt it ?

They have no political power. And in time they will dissappear as figure heads too!

Hello the world called, they miss you there. Money IS political power. And they will go nowhere. Even in the places oficially free of the royals, they still hold a favoured position and has the right to certain amounts in recompense. Recompense for what ?what their theaving murderous familys have raped the country for 100's of years?

What is surpressed always comes out. Nothing remains hidden. Just like Auschwitze and the Gulags revelaed their deadly secrets!

Yes, but it took people willing to do a lot of footwork at a time where nobody belived them, and said they were into "smoked" conspiracy "theorys".

Agatha Christie reader? You mean miss marple mysterys. I see you have fondness for fictions!

wow that was cheap. You watch BBC right? so likewise!

Perhaps that is what it is? Like Victorian Reform clubs? Where not only men of wealth and power met but also inventors, merchants etc?

You are free to belive what you want. I think its more likely that the club IS what we claim it is. And when they could deny it nomore by discrediting its opponents as conspiracy kooks. it goes public and introduce itself as a freindly cigar club for rich influential people.
Sort of like what happened to skull and bones. The brother hood that 10 years ago proudly called themself the brotherhood of death. When people started to wonder why all too many leaders of "the free world" came from something called the brotherhood of death. Suddenly it went public, and sold itself off as a freindly cigarclub for rich influential people. Same story when the bohemian grove was caught red handed.

At first, it doesnt exsists. if pressured enough, it in fact does excists, but its all just fun and games......riiiiiight!

How did these people get into position of power? Did they work hard and make a lot of money? Where they inventors like vacuum cleaner maker Mr. Dyson. He is now billionaire. So he has lot of money, power and influence? - is that wrong?

When its used to manipulate to keep a favorable position. yes it is. it is wrong. I do not envy enyone their succes, but when peple use their position to conspire against me and my own. we have a problem.

Don't flatter yourself too much Noah, it makes you look impressive but you are not -)

guessing again huh? never gets old that.

Have you heard of Dr Yunis of Mirco Credit fame?

indeed i have, ISRA implemented the system. Its a great idea.

You talented enough to invent something that went against the big bank's philosphy of letting to the credit worthy. It is these people will change the system not people like you.

thesse people will change squat. Its the same with the german gutegeld, the danish artmoney, the dutch hav an alternative aswell. If it gets too popular rather than the established money, you will see it made unlawful over night. as simple as that. And my german freinds whom our group helped with the gutegeld system was directly told so by the national bank.
So in other words, its ok as fun and a distraction to make people think they have freedom, but the fact are...they havent. only as much as the powers will hand them.

But ofcourse you couldnt have known any of this, that i am foallowing these alternative systems very closely. because you didnt ask me, yust just assumed again

Don't worry if it is not good for mankind then it will be changed without any fan fare, just we have changed many things in the past. So sleep easily Noah -)

It has been in function since 8.may 1668, and so far nothing has changed. it has been dangerous since day one, but especially in the reformation of it during the 1860's. Thats where it became a real beast. So youre not right. It is not changing because someone has too much too loose by doing so.

Then know that monetary system is not simple as printing new bank notes!

I dont get what you are trying to say?

Be positive Noah. Believe in the human spirit.

I do strongly, that is why i belive there is no need for anyone to govern us. that the benefits are outweighed by the problems.
If i didnt belive in the human spirit i would suggest democracy, or some other tyrant system.

Democracy is a next experiment Noah. We are not sure how it will work out. But one thing is for sure, there will be no return to Kingship, Dictatorship or even theocracy!

thats what you think. there will be a return to all of those. because eventually people will realise that what serves them best is small local systems where people gather with likeminded, rather than trying to homogenise the whole world into a greyish blob, where all are the same.

No chap. This is not what you have said. You Theocracy is rule of God but now its not. Its now about you and your God.

as it has been the whole time. again. yo unever bother to ask what people actually think, so im not going to give anything away. i will let you assume and make a fool of yourelf all you want. But it really only takes a single question to prevent it. You assumed what my view on theocracy was, rather than asking me. so i just went along...

You can sit down Noah and have a rest -)

thank you

For every person like your dad there are also decent people working to make the world better.

Problem is...my dad is a good man, so are many of his freinds that i know. Good men accept this system aswell, because if it aint broke too bad, dont fix it. exploit it.

Thank you very much. I like reality best -)

Hell yeah..your very own reality.

Regards