Alkhineer is a noun in the light of the Reading

marie

Salam all,

Here some examples from the Reading where you can see the difference between a noun (blue text) and an adjective (red text)

According what is said before one can say
lahmi tayrin/meat of birds or lahmi alttayri/the meat of birds,
lahma tayrin or lahma alttayri,
lahmu tayrin or lahmu alttayri

And meat of birds that they desire.
Wa lahmi tayrin mimmayashtahoona

Idem one can say
lahma khinzeerin (6 145) or lahma alkhinzeeri (2 173, 16 115),
lahmi khinzeerin like lahmi tayrin (5621) or lahmi alkhinzeeri,
lahmu khinzeerin or lahmu alkhinzeeri (5 3)

khinzeerin is a noun like tayrin.

When the second word is an adjective for the first word, the two words must be ended by the same vowel " ..an - ..an" (alfatha) or "..un - ..un" (alddamma) or "..in -..in" (alkasra).

Ex1
daman masfoohan/running blood (6145)
damun masfoohun
damin masfoohin

Say I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden to a one eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig, it"the prohibited food" is foul/unhealthy/unpure; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God. Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun

Ex2
lahman tariyyan/tender meat (1614)
lahmun tariyyun
lahmin tariyyin

And He is the One who committed the sea, that you may eat from it a tender meat, and that you may extract from it pearls that you wear. And you see the ships flowing through it, so that you may seek from His bounty, and that you may be thankful.

Wahuwa allathee sakhkhara albahralita/kuloo minhu lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoominhu hilyatan talbasoonaha watara alfulkamawakhira feehi walitabtaghoo min fadlihiwalaAAallakum tashkuroona

The second way, the two words must carry the article Al at the beginning and ended by the same vowel " ..a - ..a" (alfatha) or "..u - ..u" (alddamma) or "..i -..i" (alkasra).

Ex1

allahma alttariyya/the tender meat,
allahmu alttariyyu,
allahmi alttariyyi

Ex2
alddeenu alqayyimu/the correct system (936)

The count of the full moon with God is twelve full moons in Gods record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahiithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahiyawma khalaqa alssamawati waal-ardaminha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakumwaqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakumkaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAaalmuttaqeena

alddeeni alqayyimi(3043)
alddeena alqayyima

So establish yourself to the system which is straight, before a Day comes from God that none can avert. On that Day they shall be separated.

Faaqim wajhaka lilddeeni alqayyimi min qabli an ya/tiya yawmun la maradda lahu mina Allahiyawma-ithin yassaddaAAoona

In 2173 and 16115, lahma alkhinzeeri is the same sentence than lahma khinzeerin (6145) and where both alkhinzeer and khinzeer are a noun for lahm/meat

He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama wa lahma alkhinzeeri wamaohilla bihi lighayri Allahi famani idturra ghayra baghinwala AAadin fala ithma AAalayhi inna Allahaghafoorun raheemun

He only made forbidden for you what is already dead, and blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other than God. But whoever is forced to, without disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama wa lahma alkhinzeeri wamaohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghinwala AAadin fa-inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

A similar sentence is used in 6146 where the cattle/albaqari and the sheep/alghanami are a noun for the fat like alkhinzeeri/the pig for lahm/the meat

shuhooma albaqari wa alghanami/the fat of cattle and sheep
lahma alkhinzeeri/the meat of pig (2173 and 16115)

And for the Jews We have forbidden all that can prey/have claws/with undivided hoof/; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.

WaAAala allatheena hadooh arramna kulla thee thufurin wamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona

In 53 lahmu alkhinzeeri is the same sentence than lahma alkhinzeeri (2173, 16115) and lahma khinzeerin (6145) where Khinzeer/alkhinzeer are a noun.

Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Hurrimat AAalaykumu almaytatu waalddamu wa lahmu alkhinzeeri wama ohilla lighayri Allahibihi waalmunkhaniqatu waalmawqoothatu waalmutaraddiyatu waalnnateehatu wama akala alssabuAAu illa ma thakkaytum wama thubihaAAala alnnusubi waan tastaqsimoo bial-azlami thalikum fisqun alyawma ya-isa allatheena kafaroomin deenikum fala takhshawhum waikhshawni alyawmaakmaltu lakum deenakum waatmamtu AAalaykum niAAmatee waradeetulakumu al-islama deenan famani idturra fee makhmasatinghayra mutajanifin li-ithmin fa-inna Allahaghafoorun raheemun

alkhanazeer (560) is the plural form of Alkinzeer. The God uses allegorically apes/alqirada and pigs/alkhanazeer to describe those who behave like them/imitate them.

Say Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them morally like apes apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worst place and are more astray from the right path.

Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalikamathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahuwaghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makananwaadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli

7166 could explain the attitude of those who are morally like apes; those who persisted and violate the Divine commandments.

So when they revoltingly persisted in that which they had been forbidden, We said to them Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

Falamma AAataw AAan ma nuhooAAanhu qulna lahum koonoo qiradatan khasi-eena

The donkey is used as a parable to describe those who denied God's revelations.

The example of those who were given the Torah, but then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey that is carrying a burden of books. Miserable indeed is the example of people who denied God's revelations. And God does not guide the wicked people.

Mathalu allatheena hummiloo alttawrata thumma lam yahmilooha kamathali alhimari yahmilu asfaran bi/sa mathalu alqawmi allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayati Allahi waAllahula yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

The donkey is used to describe the harshest of all voices

And be humble in how you walk and lower your voice. For the harshest of all voices is the donkey's voice.

Waiqsid fee mashyika waoghdudmin sawtika inna ankara al-aswati lasawtu alhameeri

the spider's home is used to describe those who take allies besides God

The example of those who take allies besides God is like the spider how it makes a home; and the weakest home is the home of the spider, if they only knew.

Mathalu allatheena ittakhathoomin dooni Allahi awliyaa kamathali alAAankabootiittakhathat baytan wa-inna awhana albuyooti labaytu alAAankabooti law kanoo yaAAlamoona

Let us note the same structure for the following sentences

baytu alAAankabooti / the home of the spider (2941)
sawtu alhameeri/the donkey's voice (3119)
lahmu alkhinzeeri/the meat of pig (53)

The dog is used as an example to describe the people who failed to uphold the God's commands

Had We wished, We could have elevated him by it, but he stuck to the Earth and he followed his desire. His example is like the dog, if you scold him he pants, and if you leave him he pants; such is the example of the people who deny Our revelations. Relate the stories, perhaps they will think.

Walaw shi/na larafaAAnahu bihawalakinnahu akhlada ila al-ardi waittabaAAahawahu famathaluhu kamathali alkalbi in tahmil AAalayhi yalhath aw tatruk-hu yalhath thalika mathalualqawmi allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatinafaoqsusi alqasasa laAAallahumyatafakkaroona

In 4912, lahma akheehi means lahm of his brother like
lahma khinzeerin/the meat of pig (6145) or
lahmi tayrin (5621)

O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooijtaniboo katheeran mina alththanni innabaAAda alththanni ithmun walatajassasoo wala yaghtab baAAdukum baAAdanayuhibbu ahadukum an ya/kula lahma akheehi maytan fakarihtumoohu waittaqoo Allaha inna Allahatawwabun raheemun

In 268-69, 271 heifer is followed by adjectives

- They said Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is. He said He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded

Qaloo odAAu lana rabbakayubayyin lana ma hiya qala innahu yaqooluinnaha baqaratun la faridun walabikrun AAawanun bayna thalika faifAAaloo matu/maroona

- They said Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is. He said He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it.

Qaloo odAAu lana rabbakayubayyin lana ma lawnuha qala innahuyaqoolu innaha baqaratun safrao faqiAAun lawnuha tasurru alnnathireena

- He said He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish. They said Now you have come with the truth. And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.

Qala innahu yaqoolu innaha baqaratun la thaloolun tutheeru al-arda walatasqee alhartha musallamatun la shiyata feehaqaloo al-ana ji/ta bialhaqqi fathabahoohawama kadoo yafAAaloona

Other adjectives

And they said Our hearts are sealed! No, it is God who has cursed them for their rejection, for very little do they believe.

Waqaloo quloobuna ghulfun ballaAAanahumu Allahu bikufrihim faqaleelan mayu/minoona

Miserable indeed is what they purchase with their souls, that they disbelieve in what God has sent down as a resentment that God would send down from His grace to whom He pleases of His servants; thus they have incurred wrath upon wrath. And the rejecters will have a humiliating retribution.

Bi/sama ishtaraw bihi anfusahum anyakfuroo bima anzala Allahu baghyan an yunazzilaAllahu min fadlihi AAala man yashaomin AAibadihi fabaoo bighadabin AAalaghadabin walilkafireena AAathabun muheenun

marie

Salam all,

Just a last comment about this subject, for those who insist that alkhnizeer means ill... this interpretation is based on zero evidence from the Reading.

The Reading is the best dictionary and explains itself and the words used to mean ill/sick are marad, marda, mareed, saqeemun

O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except if travelling, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola taqraboo alssalata waantum sukarahatta taAAlamoo ma taqooloona walajunuban illa AAabiree sabeelin hattataghtasiloo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin awjaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumualnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedantayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekuminna Allaha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran

4102, 56, 991, 3332, 4817, 7320,

1. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, it only increased foulness to their foulness, and they died as rejecters.

Waamma allatheena feequloobihim maradun fazadat-hum rijsan ilarijsihim wamatoo wahum kafiroona

There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may understand.

Laysa AAala al-aAAma harajunwala AAala al-aAAraji harajun walaAAala almareedi harajun wala AAalaanfusikum an ta/kuloo min buyootikum aw buyooti aba-ikumaw buyooti ommahatikum aw buyooti ikhwanikum awbuyooti akhawatikum aw buyooti aAAmamikum awbuyooti AAammatikum aw buyooti akhwalikum awbuyooti khalatikum aw ma malaktum mafatihahuaw sadeeqikum laysa AAalaykum junahun an ta/kuloojameeAAan aw ashtatan fa-itha dakhaltum buyootanfasallimoo AAala anfusikum tahiyyatan min AAindiAllahi mubarakatan tayyibatan kathalikayubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakumtaAAqiloona

And if I am sick, He is the One who cures me.
Wa-itha maridtu fahuwayashfeeni
And he said I am ill!
Faqala innee saqeemun

TheNabi

Salaam Marie,

I think that's nice work, but maybe there's another condition here. Let me show you.

Ta Ba 'Ayn (to seal/imprint) versus Za' Ta' Mim (to seal/imprint)

Ayatin

Is it not a guide for those who inherited the land after them, that if We wished We could have punished them immediately for their sins? And We stamp (wanatbaAAu) on their hearts (quloob), so they do not hear.

Today, We shall seal (nakhtimu) their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will bear witness to everything they had done.

Two different words have identical meanings.

Joe

Wakas

peace sister Marie,

I do not support the strict one word for one meaning approach, but that is not the point of this post. You may be interested in the following word

A word which means 'to be spoiled' and is used in relation to food 'yatasannahu' in 2259

root siin-nun-ha

Wakas

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

Something rotten or unwholesome is called 'khabith'. Its opposite is tayyib.

As Marie has pointed out, al-quraan has set a precedent with lahmu at-tayr. This is as clear as evidence as you can get because it comes from the reading itself and its used in an indisputable context.

Further to this, 5/60 uses the phrase 'kunu khanazir'. If we analyse other attributive or adjectival wordings in al-quraan such as muslim, we will see the pluralisation is 'muslimeen', its the same with mumin, salih, mufsid, kafir, zalim, munafiq and so on. Yet the plural of khinzeer is KHANAzeer. Why isn't it khinzereen if in fact 'khinzeer' is an attribute of something? The word 'qiradah' (apes) just prior to khinzeer in 5/60 is another indication.

Once again, many thanks Marie. I completely missed that angle. Guess I'll have to keep waiting for my bacon burgers in Burger King!

JoeTwo different words have identical meanings
.

I cant accept this axiom in my interpretation because Allah said Arabic is tafseel/detailing of al-quraan. Therefore, while we may intuit a similar meaning, the semantic field around which each concept is based cannot be exactly the same. For example, 'ilaa' and 'hatta' are both translated as 'until' but my limited analysis of contexts tell me that 'ilaa' is a sudden graduation to an event while hatta is used in more sudden terms. I could be wrong as I've not analysed the entire text for these 2 terms.

Wakas I do not support the strict one word for one meaning approach

Ok. But do you agree that all roots should have one basic , unchanging meaning even if the meaning cannot be transposed into a single English word?

marie

Salam Joe, Wakas, mquran, all,

Thanks for your answers and criticisms.

I think that's nice work, but maybe there's another condition here. Let me show you.

Ta Ba 'Ayn (to seal/imprint) versus Za' Ta' Mim (to seal/imprint)

Ayatin

Is it not a guide for those who inherited the land after them, that if We wished We could have punished them immediately for their sins? And We stamp (wanatbaAAu) on their hearts (quloob), so they do not hear.

Today, We shall seal (nakhtimu) their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will bear witness to everything they had done.

Two different words have identical meanings.

Agree, two words can have a common meaning like the example you quoted. I think there is a nuance between khatma and tabaAAa according the context of their occurences. If we look some derivatives which have the same root than the verb tabaAAa, there are TabAA, tabeeAa which mean character, nature, temperament.

I do not support the strict one word for one meaning approach, but that is not the point of this post.

Agree, there are several words which can have a common meaning.

You may be interested in the following word
A word which means 'to be spoiled' and is used in relation to food 'yatasannahu' in 2259

root siin-nun-ha

The root of the verb "yatasannahu" is siin-nun-alif pronounced as sanaa /

I prefer "they have not changed" than spoiled.

A derivative from the verb "sanaa" is used in 1526, masnoon which also means changing in arabic "mutaghayyir"
1526. And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped/sounding/malleable (masnoon).
Walaqad khalaqna al-insana minsalsalin min hama-in masnoonin

Something rotten or unwholesome is called 'khabith'. Its opposite is tayyib.

You are right, khabeeth is oposed to tayyib/good. In the light of the Reading, khabeeth is not used to mean rotten but unwholesome/bad/Evil/wicked (758, 837, 1426, 2426).

The wicked women are for the wicked men, and the wicked men are for the wicked women, and the good women are for the good men, and the good men are for the good women. These people are innocent from what statements have been made, and for them is forgiveness and a generous provision.

Alkhabeethatu lilkhabeetheena waalkhabeethoona lilkhabeethati waalttayyibatu lilttayyibeena waalttayyiboona lilttayyibatiola-ika mubarraoona mimma yaqooloona lahummaghfiratun warizqun kareemun

5/60 uses the phrase 'kunu khanazir'.

I'd like to add other example similar than (koonoo qiradatan../be "like" apes... ) (7166)

Say, "Even if you turn into rocks or iron!
Qul koonoo hijaratan aw hadeedan

Peace

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Marie,

You are right, khabeeth is oposed to tayyib/good. In the light of the Reading, khabeeth is not used to mean rotten but unwholesome/bad/Evil/wicked (758, 837, 1426, 2426).

Unwholesome. Ok

I'd like to add other example similar than (koonoo qiradatan../be "like" apes... ) (7166)

Say, "Even if you turn into rocks or iron!
Qul koonoo hijaratan aw hadeedan

WELL DONE. Excellent. I never saw this one before.

Wakas

peace,

The root of the verb "yatasannahu" is siin-nun-alif pronounced as sanaa /

I prefer "they have not changed" than spoiled.

According to Lane, Dictionary of Quran, and Concordance of Quran the root is siin-nun-ha.

The core meaning of siin-nun-ha is time, specifically through time, hence its releated meanings become mouldy/spoiled etc.

Ok. But do you agree that all roots should have one basic , unchanging meaning even if the meaning cannot be transposed into a single English word?

I have not studied this so I have no opinion on it, nor have I seen any evidence/research suggesting this. Normally, there is a common meaning, but like I said, I have not studied this specific so I cant say.

Wakas

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Wakas,

I have not studied this so I have no opinion on it, nor have I seen any evidence/research suggesting this. Normally, there is a common meaning, but like I said, I have not studied this specific so I cant say
.

Fair enough. Do think about the tarteel process though? If we are to bring similarities together, what would be the point if the meanings of each occurence was different?

Ali_Omar

Hi,

Why are we all seemingly talking past each other? ?

There are, at least, two issues here, that of the quranic grammar, and that of the meaning of verses when seen together.

Arabic grammar is not as simple as Marie put it, but the references that she used from our present quran are quite clear, and her observations are very good.
I do believe that the language used in the quran is accurate, but the references used here are all based on diacritical marks, and I do not believe those are original, but added in at a later stage.

In other cases in the Arabic language you do not always have the ending of an adjective tally with that of the noun it refers to, but it must, among other things, agree in gender, like ?bayt qadiim? = an old house, and female, like ?jariidah qadiimah?= an old newspaper, etc.

Therefore, are the specifications of nouns vs. adjectives, as described by Marie, put there by God or by humans?
I believe it is more useful if we can discuss the matter at hand in a more open way.

Regds

Ali Omar

TheNabi

Salaam Ali,

Good advice.

Joe

marie

Salam Wakas, all,

peace,

The root of the verb "yatasannahu" is siin-nun-alif pronounced as sanaa /

I prefer "they have not changed" than spoiled.

According to Lane, Dictionary of Quran, and Concordance of Quran the root is siin-nun-ha.

The core meaning of siin-nun-ha is time, specifically through time, hence its releated meanings become mouldy/spoiled etc.

You are right for the root.
According lisan alArab Both tasannaha/ (root siin-nun-ha / &#64427 and tasanaa/ (root siin-nun-alif / have a common meaning taghayyara /
to change, modify, deteriorate, transform, vary, renew.

I lean towards the basic meaning which is change than mouldy/spoiled which is a valid interpretation.

marie

Salam Ali Omar,

You wrote

I do believe that the language used in the quran is accurate, but the references used here are all based on diacritical marks, and I do not believe those are original, but added in at a later stage.

You raised a good point, since the author of the Reading is not a human, then the internal structure of the Reading which is based on logic and the nature of each word (adj, noon, adv, vb, pron, masc, femin....etc) is not man made because of the writing of the words independently of diacritical marks and their sequences.

Not all the references used here are based on diacritical marks because some rules can be extracted from the text without diacritical marks/tashkeel.
I will try to give you some examples about the agreement between a word (green text) and its adjective (red text) based only on their writing

Say I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden to a one eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig, it"the prohibited food" is foul/unhealthy/unpure; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God. Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun

One cannot read these daman masfoohan in other way because both are ended with the same letter alif , consequently the use of the vowel "a" called "alfatha" in daman masfoohan is the only solution.

Idem the vowel "a" in fisqan is the only way to read it because of the alif at the end of this word .

About maytatan and lahma, one can think to read them in different ways
lahma, lahmu, lahmi,
maytatan, maytatun, maytatin
but the two last readings of lahm and mayta are excluded because they should be in agreement with word daman and fisqan.
All these words have the same situation in the sentence and they are under the same rule.

Here another example
After kana/yakoonu the word which specifies the subject (for example the messenger in 2278] is ended with the vowel "a" with "alif" (shaheedan/ or without "alif" like lahma in 6145 when it is followed by a noon "khinzeerin"

That the Messenger may be a witness for you
liyakoona alrrasoolu shaheedan (&#65165 AAalaykum (2278

This is the same rule used in 6145 and it is independently of diacritical marks, In 6145, maytatan or daman or lahma or fisqan represent a sequence with the same statute insithe the verse and are under the same rule.
The subject in 6145 is the prohibited food which is
maytatan
aw/or
daman /
aw/or
lahma..
aw/or
fisqan /
etc

If "khinzeer" is an adjective of lahm, lahm should be written as lahman/ instead of in the same way than daman/ and fisqan/.
khinzeer should be writen as khnizeeran / in agreement with instead of .

I hope you can see diacritical marks are not essential to understand the grammar and the internal structure in 6145.

Salam

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Marie,

Is there a mu'jam/concordance detailling grammatical forms like how you're quoting below? Or did you find the tanwin-ending words from your memory? If that's the case, wow and good job!

Ali_Omar

Dear Marie,

Thank you for the further explanation.
I am not a linguist, I only know Arabic from a general point of view, therefore I will have to study what you said a bit closer.
But it does not seem to tally with my knowledge of Arabic grammar, as it is.

I agree that if a word ends with ?alif?, the most natural thing is to put an ?a? sound on the letter preceding it, if no other information is given.

But I can not quite follow your statement about the need of ?lahm? to be written with an ?alif? in order to be followed by an adjective.
As far as I know there is nothing wrong in saying, for instance, ?lahm ladhiidh? (delicious meat) so I fail to understand why it can not also be said ?lahm khinzeer? meaning meat that seems anything BUT delicious. (if dictionaries are anything to go by)

Anyway, I will try to look further into it, given time.
For my diet it does not matter, one way or another, whether the pigs meat is forbidden or not, as I see no need to order it anyway. But it would be nice to know what the koran says about this subject, as the pig is a matter of controversy amongst many people.

Regards

Ali Omar

marie

Salam mquran, Ali Omar, all,

Salaamun alaikum Marie,

Is there a mu'jam/concordance detailling grammatical forms like how you're quoting below? Or did you find the tanwin-ending words from your memory? If that's the case, wow and good job!

This is my own analysis of the writing of the words in the Reading. The Reading itself provides the rules of its internal structure. 6145 is a good example to anderstand the statute of khinzeer for the word "lahm" by analyzing what is written before and after. One can see a great logic in this internal structure.

But I can not quite follow your statement about the need of lahm to be written with an alif in order to be followed by an adjective.

The internal structure of the Reading is based on great logic, if khinzeer is an adjective for "lahm", then "lahm" must be ended with alif like 1)daman masfoohan before and 2) "fisqan" after.

Lahma khinzeerin (6145) is the same sentence than lahmu alkhinzeeri (53) and lahma alkhinzeeri (2173, 16115). All these verses are under a rule determined by the internal struture of the Reading and prove that alkhinzeer is a noon and not an adjective.

4912 illustrates the same structure than "Lahma khinzeerin" (6145); "lahma akheehi" means lahm of his brother. akhee is not an adjectve for lahma in the same way than khinzeer for lahm.
Both khinzeerin and akheehi are with alksra (i). Based on the writing of Akheehi, this word cannot be read in other way such as "akhahu" or "akhoohu" because of the letter ya () which is between the letter "kh"/ and "ha"/ in the word , once again the Reading provides how to read the words which have the same statute after the word "lahm". Praise to the God, the criterion is inside the Reading.

As far as I know there is nothing wrong in saying, for instance, lahm ladhiidh (delicious meat) so I fail to understand why it can not also be said lahm khinzeer meaning meat that seems anything BUT delicious.

OK, It is not upon us to choose how to read this sentence, because the internal structure of the Readind fixes the rule.
According the rule applied to what is said before "lahma khinzeerin", this sentence cannot be read lahmin khinzeerin or lahmun khinzeerun because the rule is fixed and illustrated by the writing of "daman masfoohan" before "lahma khinzeerin" and "fisqan" after it.
If some doubt remains about the statute of khinzeer in 6145, then according the satatue of alkhinzeer in 53, 2173 and 16115, this doubt collapses definitively.
See the example given in 6146, the cattle/albaqari and the sheep/alghanami are the noun for the fat like alkinzeer or the meat.
The internal struture of the Reading is is marvelously tied up by the God )

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Marie,

This is my own analysis of the writing of the words in the Reading. The Reading itself provides the rules of its internal structure. 6145 is a good example to anderstand the statute of khinzeer for the word "lahm" by analyzing what is written before and after. One can see a great logic in this internal structure.

Well done, then )

I have a mu'jam for the roots, of course but not for the grammar forms. I have begun compilation for the various wazn (questions like what is it 'kafir' but not 'mukfir' like why isn't 'salim' but 'muslim') but of course, that's a huge task.

Ali_Omar

Dear Marie,

I still fail to see what you see, concerning grammar of the quranic text, but that may of course be due to my own shortcomings on the subject.
Grammar is most definitely not my ?thing? ? , which makes it even more difficult for me, but I do try.

You say that your understanding of verse 6.145 is due to the internal structure of the quran, and quite frankly I do not find the internal structure to be that simple.
If it was not up to us to choose how to read a word in a sentence, then what you say is that diacritical marks should not have been put into the quran in the first place. I would say that I kind of agree with you there.

There are numerous examples where only the vowel signs guides the pronunciation of a combination of nouns and adjectives, like

7.59 albaladu alttayyibu = good/pure land

Without the ?u?-sound at the end the words could be thought to have different endings.

And even with the diacritical marks in place they are put in such a way that the words have different endings like

7.64 qawman Aameena = misguided nation

and so on.

I would love to have it as simple as you claim, but, like I said, I fail to see it.
However I will, when I find time to do it, try to find out more, even with my rather inadequate knowledge of grammar.
In the meantime, I would be grateful if you would continue to inform me concerning your findings.scholar

Regards

Ali Omar

Grourself

Peace,

What is flawed in this analysis is the ?AW?, ?or?. The use of aw as opposed to ?am? is a clue to the contents of the list.

This is the same rule used in 6145 and it is independently of diacritical marks, In 6145, maytatan or daman or lahma or fisqan represent a sequence with the same statute insithe the verse and are under the same rule.
The subject in 6145 is the prohibited food which is
maytatan
aw/or
daman /
aw/or
lahma..
aw/or
fisqan /
etc

AW indicates an alternate similitude. AM indicates a alternate different proposition.

The use of aw indicates the items on the list are similar and related to condition, in other words, not sanctioned by nature but by condition, fisqan.

marie

Salam Ali Omar,

You say that your understanding of verse 6.145 is due to the internal structure of the quran, and quite frankly I do not find the internal structure to be that simple.

This is not my understanding but the internal structure doesn't let us another choice to read the verse differently than "lahma khinzeerin" for different reasons

In 6145, there is a sequence of a prohibited foods
1 or 2 or 3 or 4....(1)maytatan or 2)daman masfoohan or 3)lahma khinzeerin or 3)fisqan)...

These prohibited foods have the same statute in the verse, then they should be under the same rule.
2 (daman) and 4 (fisqan) illustrate through their writing how we have to read them.
3 (lahm khinzeer) cannot be read in the same manner than 2 (daman masfoohan) because the alif at the end of daman and masfoohan is missing at the end of lahm and khinzeer.
Since lahm has the same statute than daman and fisqan, we read it with alftha (a) i.e. "lahma".
About khinzeer, the Reading itself shows us the rule which governed the word after lahma (see my last post).

If we consider lahm khinzeer outside the context of this verse, one can think that khinzeer can be an adjective for lahm like your last example "lahm ladhid/delecious meat".
This is why we have to consider the satute of each word regarding to what is said before and after. The internal structure is based on logic not on anarchy.
One cannot read the verse like "maytatun or damanan masfoohan or lahmin khinzeerin/lahmun khinzeerun or fisqan"

"Daman masfoohan" and "fisqan" are like beacons on a road which indicate the curve to be followed. Let us not forget that this listed food have the same statute in the verse. Tanween is not for the design but each vowel illustrates a specific statute for each word.

Below another similar example

9.24 Say If your 1) fathers, and 2) your sons, and 3) your brothers, and 4) your wives, and 5) your clan, and 6) money
9.24 Qul in kana 1) abaokum wa 2) abnaokum wa 3)-ikhwanukum wa 4) azwajukum wa 5) AAasheeratukum wa 6) amwalun...

In 924, fathers, sons, brothers, wives, clan, money have the same statute in the verse and they are under the same rule. Moreover 1) abaokum and 2) abnaokum are the beacons to be followed. According their writing, they have only one reading, abaokum and abnaokum and not aba-ikum/aba-akum and abna-ikum/abna-akum

According the internal structure of the Reading, the subject after the article "kana/yakoonu" is with the vowel "u" called alddama and the two beacons 1) and 2) confirm it (924). And the word which specifies the subject is with the vowel "a) called alfatha (see 6145, 2278 in my last post)

There are numerous examples where only the vowel signs guides the pronunciation of a combination of nouns and adjectives, like

7.58 albaladu alttayyibu = good/pure land

The vowel "u" depends on the statute of albalad in this verse, please analyse by yourself what is common between all the words with the same statute, you will anderstand GW why the vowel "u" is used instead of another vowel.

Independently of diacritical marks, alttayib is an adjective of albalad; the two words started with al.
According the context, this sentense can be read as albaladi alttayyibi or albaladu alttayyibu or albalada alttayyiba. Whatever their endeing, alttayyib always remains an adjective for albalad

Other examples
2229 albayti alAAateeqi / the ancient sanctuary

In 2229 albayt doesn't have the same statute than albalad in 758, but both alttayyib/pure/good and alAAateeqi/ancient are the adjectives for albalad/land and albayt/housse/sanctuary. They have the same writing independtly of their satutes and diacritical marks

albayt alAAateeq
albalad alttayyib

And even with the diacritical marks in place they are put in such a way that the words have different endings like
7.64 qawman Aameena = misguided nation

According the writing of qawman and AAameen, they have only one reading qawman and not qawmun and AAameena and not AAamoona (2766)
Aameen is a specific case, may be you expect to read "qawman Aameen" with the same vowel "a"

Aameen is the plural form of aAAma ().
According the context, one can use AAameen/ or AAamoon/ like in 2766.

The plural form of in the same way than can be written only in two manners 1) and 2)
(singular form),1) and 2) (plural form)
muslim/ (singular form), 1) muslimeen/ and 2) muslimoon/ (the plural form), you can found several examples in the Reading.

There is a specific thing with , one cannot use it in the singular form with the vowel "u" or the vowel "i" like basser / the seer (650). This caracteristic is due to the letter

I would love to have it as simple as you claim, but, like I said, I fail to see it.

You should persevere and you will see GW the logic which controls the insternal structural of the Reading.

In the meantime, I would be grateful if you would continue to inform me concerning your findings

You are most welcome. The question is often more interesting than the answer. Please if you have another question, I will be glad to discuss it with you in the light of the Reading.

May the God improve our understanding.

Salam