Torn... what to do about Salaat?
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PEACE, MO MENTUM,
And i don't agree with Qa'ba being a rock of idol worship. True, many will kiss and try to touch the black stone at the corner of the Qa'ba, but even the Righteous Caliph Omar said that he wouldn't have bothered with that stone had he not seen the Prophet pbuh do it. And it was meant as nothing else but to mark the starting position of the Tawaf. There is much mythology surrounding the black stone itself (rock from paradise, meteor, etc...) all that is inconsequential. Point is, the building itself serves as a focus point.
1722 Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution.
Per the above ayat, of course the kaaba is an idol. Isn't it an OBJECT and don't you see how people venerate it, fawn all over it, adore it, and revere it? These feelings/behaviors of adoration and veneration should only be for Allah and not some material object. The Kaaba is an idol and those venerate it are mushriks...plain and simple. Anyway...how do you know that the Prophet kissed the black stone and then Omar did the same? Where you there to witness this yourself?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, DANISH,
I also learnt that most of what I used to pray during the rituals was not at all for/to GOD. I?ve always understood salaat to mean commitments, obligations, duties, etc. since the day I first got introduced to Aidid Safar's article (some 2 years ago).
My salaat are the obligations and duties that challenge me to serve and live them in light of the Quran as per my ways of life in the most righteous manner. That, by itself, is not easy to maintain, hence one must strive to keep up to prescribed obligations and duties by practice and adherence via reason, prudence and self-righteousness.
No doubt.
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Salaam all.
Guys..i'm not condoning the veneration of the Qa'ba, and especially the black stone. Obviously some people go that extreme and do venerate it and hold it dear, but most Muslims i know do not. As per the Qur'an, it is God's first house! And i mean physical house.
I don't condone completley ignoring the Qa'ba, just as i dont condone venerating it. But i think you guys are making the mistake of linking what you see on TV people doing during Hajj with worshipping a stone. Some factions within Islam such as Shia and Sufis have actually venerated saints and ask them for help and visit their graves and ask them for intercession, THAT IS CLEAR SHIRK.
YES, our religion is a religion of reason and conviction, but i don't agree with how easily most people on here are disregarding EVERYTHING about the religion . Ok fine, Hadiths are not reliable, but some here are going to the other extreme and even ignoring what the Qur'an is saying about these holy places.
And also, the majority of Muslims do not idolize the prophet, but honor him as God's Messenger, just as the Qur'an always refers to him in many places. "In'Allah wa Rassulihi" is there SOOO many times. Are we to claim we base ourselves on purely the Qur'an and ignore this simple fact.
ALSO, yes God does ask you to do physical excercice while worshipping him. By binding Salaat with actual physical movement, it becomes a more complete form of adoration which engages all your senses. And if you believe in the Eastern concept of chakras, it makes alot of sense.
Again, if people saw the Qa'ba as an idol, they would be asking it for intercession and forgiveness. They simply don't. It is merely a physical location used as a focal point for us to orient our rituals to, and not to pray to. Everything in this Creation is an allegory for everything else, we go around the Qa'ba as the planets orbit the sun, as the magnetic field is generated around a current, as the spin movement of electorns around their nucleous..counter-clockwise..
I am but a warner to my brothers and sisters in faith. Do not rush to the other extreme.
Examples showing that Masjid al-Haram is an actual physical place
2125 21272144 specifically explains why God chose a Qibla, because people kept facing different directions, even the sky when praying to Him. Hence the Ka'ba at the Sacred Mosque, or Restricted Temple. Whichever translation you prefer.
2158 speaks of visiting the holy hills of Safa and Marwa, near the source of ZamZam..close to the Sacred Mosque for Hajj and Umrah.
397 speaks of visiting the place for Hajj.
595 and 597 specifically names the Qa'ba as a site of offerings to repent for those who kill game during the sacred months and other stuff. (5100 in FM.org's translation..odd)
836 talks about the idolater's Salaat at the Sanctuary that was just noise and meaningless.
1437 Abraham tells God where he left his offspring, in a valley, by God's sacred house. (FM.org 1440)
2229 and Hajj at the most ancient House. (2228 FM.org)
524 calls it the "constructed sancturary"
etc etc..shall i go on?
I never realized that the verse numbering was that dissimlar in the 'official' and FM.org versions until just now. I'm gonna have to look into that. Yes yes i know the verse numbering itself is recent and so doesn't really matter. But in a way it does for coherehence's sake.
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As for the calendar. That's up to debate. So lets! Can anyone clarify this for me? or point me to a thread that does?
If you speak truth, then show me your proof. I'm not an antagonist, but i want to be convinced. Until then, i keep what has been established for so many centuries.
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Peace Warda,
God has made Salaat, Sawm and other rituals incumbent upon us, as He's made them so on nations that had come before us. He warns again and again how people twisted the rituals to make them easier on themselves and do it their own way. Ibliss is indeed very seductive...
Salam Mo.mentum
I agree with you but yet we have to question questionable practices like kissing a stone, adore the messenger more than God, taking hadiths more important than the Quran, ... any kind of renewal which are imposed by men like the calendar and others. For that reason it is important of being critical.
It would be foolish to agree on anything that is questionable.
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Ya but no one is kissing stones and rubbing them as part of ritual, its just something you do while you're there since you're already there. I know many ppl who've been to Hajj and they would touch it just cause its there..not because they believe it has power of idolize or anything..
I dunno...must beware not to go into extremes in undoing rituals.
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Peace mo.mentum
Peace brother. But what are those obligations, duties that you speak of?
The obligations and duties dictated in light of Quran; a prescription to live a basic, simple and righteous way of life for all mankind in general and NOT exclusive to a ?religion comprised of Sunnies and Shias and their sub-sects?.
We must realize a simple miracle at work here around the Qa'ba. Have you ever been there, or seen on TV the multitudes of birds that fly above it in rotation with the people below. And not once do they defecate around the area? I found this to be quite odd myself...
Yes, I?ve been there during my teen life. I've seen and done it all. I find your statement in bold above not only funny but meaningless.
And i don't agree with Qa'ba being a rock of idol worship. True, many will kiss and try to touch the black stone at the corner of the Qa'ba, but even the Righteous Caliph Omar said that he wouldn't have bothered with that stone had he not seen the Prophet pbuh do it. And it was meant as nothing else but to mark the starting position of the Tawaf. There is much mythology surrounding the black stone itself (rock from paradise, meteor, etc...) all that is inconsequential. Point is, the building itself serves as a focus point.
The Qur'an does mention the Qa'ba as being the first house of worship set up for mankind on Earth, built by Abraham and Ishmael. So it's not some building that popped out of no where. So no one is relying on Hadith and other stories for that. The building does indeed have a purpose.
Abraham's religion was still alive in the days of Muhammad, they called them 7unafa, plural of 7anif. After several centuries, the people of Mecca had forgotten the original message and fell into idol worship. That much is known.
The Qa'ba itself is not worshipped, nor is God thought to reside there or anything else of the sort. So there is none of the blah blah justifications that most idol worshippers will use to justify that they worship not the form, but the spirit that resides within the form. NO. The Qa'ba's shape, color and position is supposed to be an allegory of God. A metaphor. It is shapeless (hence a non perfect cube), colorless (black), and everything rotates around it. So ya... personally i still think we need to be careful not to go from one extreme to the other.
You may disagree to agree, but the fact remains that Kaba is a cubic rock structure (rebuilt several times) wrapped in black velvet cloth with a black meteorite stone infringed at one corner, Quranic verses embossed in gold, a copper plated footprint impersonating and alleging Abraham?s foot, marbled floors, refrigerated ?holy? water (zam zam), a jogging area to and fro (safah and marwah), an animal slaughter house (an altar) and an arena (jammarah) where stone throwing contest takes place with much fervor.
Millions each year come from far off to pay homage for several days to enact/playoff 2 episodes of this drama in reverence to a man-made ?GOD?s House?, many with desperation, financial and emotional setbacks, just to circumvent this building, bowing and prostrating to it in circles, touching and kissing its walls, meteorite stone, footprint and floor, run amok and call upon Allah to signify their presence as if HE cannot hear them elsewhere on earth.
When the 1st episode is over, the 2nd begins at Mina. 21 stones are gathered and 7 each is thrown with utmost might at 3 of the much larger stone structures believed to be reminiscent of devils, calling upon these stones all sorts of disgusting names. During this contest, many contesters and bystanders get hurt and trampled.
Imagine the revenue this city alone brings about to the world transportation and tourism industry, lodging and boarding facilities, restaurants and shopping centers, altars and butcheries, farming and agriculture, and you name it. Saudi Arabia (the Arabs) is known by its two major strengths, Oil and Kaba.
Once these acts are played off, it is believed that all atrocities and sins committed are forgiven and are heaven-bound, only to realize that they are back to square one and hell-bound. This entire drama, as summarized, is what is called Haj in the name of Allah. The Quran warns of such idol-worshipping schemes and unforgiven if carried until death.
As for Salaat, structured or not, it must remain an important facet of our daily rituals. imho.
Salaat (obligations/duites) MUST be structured/maintained/upheld, else it cannot be termed an important facet of our daily lives (not daily ?rituals?).
Please read, study and contemplate on an article written by Aidid Safar at www.aididsafar.com. It may help you understand the basics of living a life in light of the Quran.
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ALSO, yes God does ask you to do physical excercice while worshipping him. By binding Salaat with actual physical movement, it becomes a more complete form of adoration which engages all your senses. And if you believe in the Eastern concept of chakras, it makes alot of sense.
Then we should all take up YOGA? Thats an exellent method of exercise! -)
Regards,
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Peace Danish,
Peace Warda,
God has made Salaat, Sawm and other rituals incumbent upon us, as He's made them so on nations that had come before us. He warns again and again how people twisted the rituals to make them easier on themselves and do it their own way. Ibliss is indeed very seductive...
Salam Mo.mentum
I agree with you but yet we have to question questionable practices like kissing a stone, adore the messenger more than God, taking hadiths more important than the Quran, ... any kind of renewal which are imposed by men like the calendar and others. For that reason it is important of being critical.
It would be foolish to agree on anything that is questionable.
I agree with him that God has made Salaat, Sawm and more incumbent upon us and which we have to obey. And I add that we have to see man made renewals critical. Where's the Problem?
Warda
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Peace,
I agree with him that God has made Salaat, Sawm and more incumbent upon us and which we have to obey. And I add that we have to see man made renewals critical. Where's the Problem?
My bad, Warda, I misunderstood and thank you for correcting me. No problem!
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Peace be upon you brother Jaxal,
My sentiments too. If it aint broke, dont fix it!
But it is broke D When the God tells us that his help comes through patience and "salaa", and we see whole nations doing something that is not working, then we have to logically state that it is broke.
I am no longer against ritual, but the ritual that is being done cannot be proven scientifically, as all LAWS should be, to CHANGE BEHAVIOR. Thats what this is all about BEHAVIOR SHAPING. You have to change what is within the Spirit before the God will change your condition.
What practice, done by many different cultures, has proven to change behavior?
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Ya but no one is kissing stones and rubbing them as part of ritual, its just something you do while you're there since you're already there. I know many ppl who've been to Hajj and they would touch it just cause its there..not because they believe it has power of idolize or anything..
Value added tourism
I dunno...must beware not to go into extremes in undoing rituals.
When the messenger burst upon the scene he entered to undo and destroy religion not to impose one. Rituals were undone and myths busted. Every messenger who came upon the scene undid the corruption that had set in to the practise of the God's way.
And so it is with ritual prayer and buildings that have dubious history and are bowed down to. Even more so when they contain within them stone idols like the mythical black stone.
Several points over the thread
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Rituals being made easier by human nature is not actually the way things work. Rituals are almost always added to and embellished. The reason is that each layer of complexity adds to the rubbish knowledge of the so called religious men who oversee it as the experts. They also derive income from performing and inventing rituals.
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The salat is the commitment to be aware of the God in one's life and acts. To act morally and decently always and think in the interests of and assist those who can't fend for themselves.
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There is no such thing as a holy or sacred place.
Regards.
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I do not think that ritual salat is ineffective. I have derived benefit from it and I know plenty of others who also do. It is better than yoga for structuring our lives since it is done for the purpose of serving God, though I do both. However, I do realize that the ritual component is lost without the component of keeping our other obligations to God. Both interpretations of salat balance each other in my opinion. Another point is that there is obviously ritual involved in Islam, notably the fast. Are you going to say that since the fast is a ritual, it must be unquranic?
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Peace,
This is SCARY for many of us. How are we to believe that everything we've been taught so far about praying can be wrong, yet everyone who claims to use Quran Alone methodology is also giving differing opinions. I fear that many will be distraught even more by all this. What are we to do?
For me as for many others here the salat issue was the most confusing thing. Of course, we wanna make it right. So is it five times? three times? this way? that way?
After quite a while of reading, learning, and thinking it all over, I just started to do my salat regularly (mostly three times sometimes more) and found what I was looking for. After some days or weeks I understood why we are always asked to perform our salat I felt connected to my Creator and this gives me strength and comforts me. This showed me that I was right.
I?ve long abandoned the dogmatic rituals of praying towards a man-made idol-worshipping rock structure, regardless of 3 times, 5 times, this way or that way. I also learnt that most of what I used to pray during the rituals was not at all for/to GOD. I?ve always understood salaat to mean commitments, obligations, duties, etc. since the day I first got introduced to Aidid Safar's article (some 2 years ago).
My salaat are the obligations and duties that challenge me to serve and live them in light of the Quran as per my ways of life in the most righteous manner. That, by itself, is not easy to maintain, hence one must strive to keep up to prescribed obligations and duties by practice and adherence via reason, prudence and self-righteousness.
Dear Danish
salamun alaikumYes i agree to u that salat is our obligations/responsibilities/duties/commitments/assigned jobs to be performed within our limitations in the light of quranic laws with dedication, devotion to get fruitful results beneficial fr u and society. Our job, taking care of family/relatives/neighbours/orphans/needy people, training teachin education of children, all comes under salat.
I also quit ritual zorostrian namaz a year ago completely forever as well as my wife, brother and his wife.
saleem -
Dear Danish
ur post is excellent, it is really a dramagoing on there. Mecca &Madina are really two biggest idol worshipping cities of the world and the cubical structure is the biggest idol of the world.
saleem -
ou may disagree to agree, but the fact remains that Kaba is a cubic rock structure (rebuilt several times) wrapped in black velvet cloth with a black meteorite stone infringed at one corner, Quranic verses embossed in gold, a copper plated footprint impersonating and alleging Abraham?s foot, marbled floors, refrigerated ?holy? water (zam zam), a jogging area to and fro (safah and marwah), an animal slaughter house (an altar) and an arena (jammarah) where stone throwing contest takes place with much fervor.
Wow sounds like Disney world. they have McDonald's too, right?