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Peace M,
I dunno man. I haven't been here forever, but long enough to realize that I've disagreed with just about everyone on this forum on one topic or another. I can see that you've put together a nice chain of dialogue to help your argument, but I can put together the same thing to show that people disagree all the time. Please, if you can, find 3 members who agree perfectly on Salat, Hajj, Shaytan, and Jinn.
You stated, earlier
just because people don't agree it doesn't mean it's not a sect... sunni disagree with sunnis all the time and shia with shia etc.
Within these groups, they do not disagree on
a the role of the Prophet and his sahaba
b the frequency of prayer
c the necessity of a pilgimage to Mecca called Hajj
d the 2% rule (zakat)So the groups are defined by their "pillars". The same cannot be said for this forum. There is only one "pillar", and it is One God, the same pillar you can find in Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Judaism, or Zoroastrianism, or any other ism that recognizes the unity of the universe.
What is it, exactly, that bothers you about this? What would you like to change? I come here because I'm completely free to express myself. The same cannot be said about any Sunni or Shia or Ahmadiyya or Sufi site that I've come across. There are even other "God-alone" sites that censor the crap out of what's being posted. I really don't understand what your issue is. This is Layth's forum, and he's free to express himself just like everyone else. But I've seen no signs of him forcing his perspective down anyone's throat. And if he has an agenda, then that's his business. He has not asked me to promote it.
Peace,
Tay -
I don't get what it is with people who come to this site and stay for a week...I have been a member of freeminds for about three years now and I come and go as I please. This is a forum to talk about Islam from a Quranic perspective. I don't know anyone who agrees with another person on all aspects of Islam and there is no "leader." This is an internet forum, so we must have moderators to make sure that discussions do not spill into fruitless arguments. Also since Layth does own the site, he can put up whatever articles that he wants. However, if you continue to read, you will find that many people do not agree with all his writings, myself included. We are free to debate his reasoning and anyone else's reasoning for that matter. That is the point of the forum. I read the FM translation of the quran, and find myself annoyed by some use of words, as I am by all others. I cannot understand why random people continue to come here and accuse people who merely engage in discussion of forming a sect. Sectarianism is mainly based on the lack of effort to question, and you will not find that here. If Sunnis decided to start questioning their traditions and leaders, then I don't think they would be a sect either, just a mass of people who have a similar starting point. However, when the ability to question is erased by majority rule and the minority voice is literally killed, then a sect has been formed. You will not find this here. What you will find is that logic rules here, hence the numerous disappearing acts by Sunnis and several rabid Christians.
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Interesting and nicely put Mehdi, even though as you put it, you have nothing to constructive to offer.
it seems free-minds covers every single one of those definitions...
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the larger group being Islam
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'Quran Alone' or Submitter, or what have you vs. sunni, shia, etc.
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well.. the Quran Alone part seems to work here too..
Note, none of my quotes or Layth for that matter mention 'Quran Alone'. So you cleverly took someone else's quote to match your point. Nice. Why didn't you use Apple Pie's quotes to prove that we believe Jesus is God? I believe in God alone, oh, and look, Damon believes in God too... oops we're a sect.
Oh and by the way, you and me?... is we.
Try hard as you might, but this is a forum whose members are Priest Bokmei, Apple Pie, mo.mentum, Jaxal, savage_carrot, M_Mehdi... please, try and put them in a sect. Would you like some luck to go with that? wink
Most of the people here come from a traditional sunni or other sect background. None of these people will deny this, I followed religion, I was part of a major sect. Now?... I doubt it. Wakas asked you a few questions on another thread, yet you created another about the same thing without answering him. Here's a 'reminder'...
I'm surprised by some of your comments, and frankly I think they are way way off. I could go through them in detail but I prefer being brief
own messenger? Did I miss something? Who's that? And even if you name someone, how many of the members actually acknowledge this? Name one.
own quran trans? Find one person who agrees with everything in "our" quran trans.
You know it's all good when you question and promote healthy debate on any subject... but I find it a little disturbing when you flat accuse almost everyone on the board for whatever reason. Would you like it if I just started running a campaign against you. Well, even if you did, others don't appreciate it. If for participating in a forum that makes us a sect?.. then sure, whatever toots your horn. noway
sect P Pronunciation Key (skt)
n.-
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
So not the bunch on this discussion board. -
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
religion?... sorry not my cup of tea. ~0 -
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.
soon as you answer the above questions from wakas, you'll have your sect.
Peace - oh wait... we're the "sect" that keep saying peace! I like to say it in the end though. ops
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Mehdifirst of all your gallop to defense is a first sign of somthing to protect.. what are you protecting a website? .. no your comfort zone.. your sect..
Mehdi, check the listing in free-minds. Is 'mquran' on it? It's not because I'm here to discuss. I disagree with many points of analysis in this site but I'm here because the moderators tolerate dissent.
second.... discussing "al-quraan" is not the only thing that happens here.
Well, there's also 'NOT discussing al-quraan' which is practised by some members. But pray tell, what else do you think happens.
third.. no a dictionary is a book that has word definitions
Yes , but the definitions it gives builds your world-view whereas rightfully, al-quraan should.
A book listing the words of a language with translations into another language.
Language builds world-views. Can you think outside language?
and fourth ... the existence of a different approach is judged as sectarian on a daily basis on this message board... as you see the free-minds fearless leader himself use the example of Sufi as i posted above... and that's just one example from the top guy him/herself...
I couldn't give a monkey's who thinks what. I'm asking YOU because you claim FM is a sect. FM may well be a sect but I'm asking you these questions
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Where is the Quranic proof that Muslims of the world is the larger group?
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Does a different in method mean you're part of another 'sect'.
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Does the Quran claim a 'sect' is pejorative? Before you answer, please not that there are 20 or so associative terms in al-quraan.
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Peace M_Mehdi,
lately you seem the Priest_Bokmey's son )
...pronunciation key...
Main entry...
Main entry...
1.
2.Are you creating a sect with him? No, he doesn't include the pronunciation,
I am kiddig, I love dictionaries.
Back to the topic, to become a sect it is needed a leader-indoctrinator who controls and applies pressure on the people to convince them to adopt his belief.
Do the users of this site look under pression? shock ) -
Hello Mehdi,
I never paid much attention to these kinds of threads before but having been around the forum for about 8 months or so, I have become fond of the premise of this forum - which is to me is the concept of FREE MINDS. I think it is an wonderful premise. For me this forum does just that, it promotes FREE THINKING. It is by thinking for ourselves that we can rid ourselves of the burden of dogma and rituals of organised religions and become liberated individuals who can then begin to develop their own understanding and relationship with their "Creator". And for me, this relationship is developed within and not out there in a mosque or temple. God-consciouness has to be cultivated and nurtured individually within ourselves.
There are diverse group of people here Mehdi, and this diverse group of people disaggrees with each other very much! But even when we disagree each other, they also make us think for ourselves- and that is very important. I also would like to think that majority of this diverse group of people are connected together by their common bond of humanity. If you think connecting at this human level is a sect then hey Mehdi, I am glad to be part of that human sect -) because I have embraced humanity long time ago. I now celebrate the best of humanity with pride and also come to terms with the worst of humanity with understanding.
a sect about nothing, a thread about nothing
Really Mehdi? sect of humanity is about nothing?
And your thread just reminded me how important humanity is because to me it seems that we need to connect with humanity before we can connect with the "God" within...
There is my two cents worth of thoughts for you... -)
Regards,
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Yeah, messengers are meant to be encouraging according to 9/103 (salla alaihim) but Shareef is like the Simon Cowell of the messengers.
(for those who don't know simon cowell is a judge on a program where ppl who want to make it as singers get thier egos beaten to a pulp while watched by millions of ppl)
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Salam All,
I've been reading all the threads about the genuine islam and genuine messenger stuff. Whether he returns to answer or not, doesn't matter. I agree with Elke. The rest of you should stop whatever you're doing. By constantly responding to his claims, you people have only fed his urge to reply at that point in time. Which is what he had been doing likewise from what I've seen on threads pertaining to this issue. Rather than criticize him and condescend him and let him do likewise, why not just drop the issue completely and let it rest? Is that what we're here for? To criticize others? If a person criticizes you and you criticize him in return, then tell me honestly, what difference is there between you and that person? Shouldn't one actually humble oneself and confront in a peaceful manner? This is afterall a forum. Not some no man's land. Please reflect on this.
Let's move on to discuss other more important issues and not constantly finding faults with one another. If anyone of you feel offended by my honest partake in this, then too bad. Feel free to defend yourselves. No, I'm neither being judgemental nor making assumptions. That is the last thing I'd do. I'm being impartial. And no, you people don't have to perceive things like how I do and no, I'm not being defensive of myself here. All I ask is for you people to chill out. Looking forward to posts not related to these issues. Thank you.
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May peace be upon all of you
I don't try to define myself by any manmade definition these days. I've gotten rid of the middle man and went straight to the source defining myself by my existence, choices, perspectives, and experiences the God has endowed upon me since the day He fashioned me in my mother's womb wink . However, from an outside perspective, I understand why and how someone would say we are part of the "quran sect".
Sure, I do not have the same convictions that some people at free-minds possess. We are all on our different paths, have different perspectives and knowledge, and have our own deens. However, many of us here do use the Qur'an alone as a guidance for balancing our lives and understanding. I mean, this is the message of the site, right? Why isn't this overwhelming commonality enough for someone to categorize us as a sect? From my perspective, it is. I'm not challenging the assumption that we are not a sect, but am trying to understand a different perspective than my own.
I think the sect question comes into play when we factor in the "organisation" of free-minds. We all have different points of view, most definitely. Additionally, most manmade sects are built upon conformity to certain rituals, expectations, and beliefs. Although everyone is welcome, many of us here try to use the qur'an as our focal point...a beacon of light so to speak. Now, where the God guides us after this is up to...well...the God.
Same focal point...different paths. The God fixed the earth as a mosaic of balanced diversity. So why would we automatically assume that the God would not operate his "system" any differently? And why does this disqualify us as a sect to someone who does not use the qur'an alone as a guidance? I'm doing some research on the differences between al muslimeen and al mumineen. If al mumineen refers to someone who follows the qur'an, would we not be a community then?
fading to silence.....
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Sure, I do not have the same convictions that some people at free-minds possess. We are all on our different paths, have different perspectives and knowledge, and have our own deens. However, many of us here do use the Qur'an alone as a guidance for balancing our lives and understanding. I mean, this is the message of the site, right? Why isn't this overwhelming commonality enough for someone to categorize us as a sect? From my perspective, it is. I'm not challenging the assumption that we are not a sect, but am trying to understand a different perspective than my own.
Well said, this. If this makes free-minds participants part of a 'sect', then so be it.
I however deny that the main group are 'muslims of the world'. I consider 'muslims of the world' as a socio-historical group with a post-quranic terminology. They have little or no quranic basis, essentially speaking.
Same focal point...different paths. The God fixed the earth as a mosaic of balanced diversity. So why would we automatically assume that the God would not operate his "system" any differently? And why does this disqualify us as a sect to someone who does not use the qur'an alone as a guidance? I'm doing some research on the differences between al muslimeen and al mumineen. If al mumineen refers to someone who follows the qur'an, would we not be a community then?
Al-mumineen refer to people who have achieved a psychobiological state of conviction. This conviction is translated in the worldly domain into certain states of behaviour.
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Layth and Edip were trying to merge Free Minds and Code 19 followers and I believe that did not go very well with majority of the members of Free Minds Forum. I have not heard anything lastest on the merger which infact is good. These loose alliances will lead to more confusion instead of creating unity. There is no way to agree on someone claiming to be a Messanger.
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Sure, I do not have the same convictions that some people at free-minds possess. We are all on our different paths, have different perspectives and knowledge, and have our own deens.
Doesn't this already negate secterianism? ?However, many of us here do use the Qur'an alone as a guidance for balancing our lives and understanding. I mean, this is the message of the site, right?
I know that myself, and a couple of people, at least, are not "Qur'an alone". God alone is the closest to any name you could give me. And I think that goes pretty well with what you said earlier;
I've gotten rid of the middle man and went straight to the sourceMaybe anyone here would care to clarify;
- What is the name of this sect? (free-minds?... are the members free-minders? ? )
- Is this sect a smaller part of the main group - muslims? (as mquran talked about)
- Is there a leader/messenger as other sects have.
- Is there a common understanding/rules that we abide by or follow?
Just checkng. )
Peace. )>-
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Layth and Edip were trying to merge Free Minds and Code 19 followers and I believe that did not go very well with majority of the members of Free Minds Forum. I have not heard anything lastest on the merger which infact is good. These loose alliances will lead to more confusion instead of creating unity. There is no way to agree on someone claiming to be a Messanger.
Well, any effort to unite in order be good is to be commended, imho.
However, Edip needs to clarify how much of al-quraan he believes in. He deletes 9/128-129 , don't forget. Layth also needs to declare if he belives in 'hafs' or 'warsh' or a combination of the two. So these guys need to align themselves to each other if they're a 'quranic group'.
The only way to move is to have a leader, one who fulfils the role of the messenger.
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I know that myself, and a couple of people, at least, are not "Qur'an alone". God alone is the closest to any name you could give me. And I think that goes pretty well with what you said earlier
I agree you can be God alone without being Quran alone. However, you cannot be God alone without being KITAAB alone. Al-kitaab here refers to God's writ in the universe. If you associate God's writ with anything else, then you're not God alone in my understanding.
