Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Salaam
How does forming a consultative body become anti-democratic?
Lote tree please can you give me any reference in the Quran which states that Islamic leadership has to be a dictatorship, as you keep suggesting.
Your initial suggestion was that the majority decisions are not binding on a muslim leader but now you state that this is not the point. You keep referring to Mr Edips point about the Quran suggesting that Islamic Goverment is not democratic, may be I have missed the point can you kindly explain it to me again how the Quran suggests an Islamic leader or govement should be formed.
Yes if majority of the people wish to form a goverment with Islamic principles they will do so with understanding that it will follow the moral principles and guidance as outlined in the Quran, very similar to written constitutions of the most of the democracies. The Quran has relatively very few specific laws and often provides moral guidance in undertaking of decisions. However if the people decide that they do not wish to follow the guidance as outlined in the Quran they can form a Goverment on that basis but it will no longer be known as a Muslim goverment. Does the quran not state there is no compulsion in religion!
The point, perhaps in a long winded way, I am trying to make is that no where in the Quran a dictatorship or monarchy is advocated. Those that suggest that Quran is anti-democratic apart from making this statement have failed to explain how the Quran suggests a goverment should be formed.
regards -
How does forming a consultative body become anti-democratic?
Because this body is not elected by the people?
Lote tree please can you give me any reference in the Quran which states that Islamic leadership has to be a dictatorship, as you keep suggesting.
3159
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah.This has been construed as the leader working within dictatorship...or kingship.
You keep referring to Mr Edips point about the Quran suggesting that Islamic Goverment is not democratic, may be I have missed the point can you kindly explain it to me again how the Quran suggests an Islamic leader or govement should be formed.
Read mqurans and Aymans posts! They can provide you with ample quranic references for you to look at.
Yes if majority of the people wish to form a goverment with Islamic principles they will do so with understanding that it will follow the moral principles and guidance as outlined in the Quran, very similar to written constitutions of the most of the democracies.
The Quran has relatively very few specific laws and often provides moral guidance in undertaking of decisions. However if the people decide that they do not wish to follow the guidance as outlined in the Quran they can form a Goverment on that basis but it will no longer be known as a Muslim goverment. Does the quran not state there is no compulsion in religion!
Exactly, thats why secular democracy is the only way to go.
The point, perhaps in a long winded way, I am trying to make is that no where in the Quran a dictatorship or monarchy is advocated.
Read mquran and Ayman's posts...
Those that suggest that Quran is anti-democratic apart from making this statement have failed to explain how the Quran suggests a goverment should be formed.
Here is my understanding.
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150). This Caliph may or may not consult his advisers but in either case their advice is not binding on him (or her! - were there any women Caliphs in the past?). He derives his own conclusions. The principle of majority opinion has no relevance in this process of consultation. This is not same as government by the people for the people where all the people in a society are involved in whole electoral process, to devise a government for themselves. Therefore this is not democracy.
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
Please put forward your own uderstanding.
Thanks.Regards,
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Because this body is not elected by the people?
So where does this body come from? Please elaborate.
Quran talks about decision with consultatation there is not a mention of a formation of abody!Quote
3159
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah.This has been construed as the leader working within dictatorship...or kingship.
Your understanding of English is very strange to me. The above to means when you have consulted and agreed upon a decision then put your trust in Allah that it will work or is the right decision. How can you even possibly construe this as working with dictatorship or King- what a bizzare conclusion! Where in that sentence does is suggest that that wishes of the majority in consultation process should be ignored. Has it occured to you that consulatation of affairs may also mean consultation to select a decision making body.
Exactly, thats why secular democracy is the only way to go.
I thought democracy was the will of the people? what if they chose not to have a secular goverment or do you define democracy as something which only agrees with your views!
Here is my understanding.
Quote
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150). This Caliph may or may not consult his advisers but in either case their advice is not binding on him (or her! - were there any women Caliphs in the past?). He derives his own conclusions. The principle of majority opinion has no relevance in this process of consultation. This is not same as government by the people for the people where all the people in a society are involved in whole electoral process, to devise a government for themselves. Therefore this is not democracy.
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
First of all you have both misquoted and misinterpreted 3150. As I have mentioned previousouly there is no reference in the Quran about a Caliph or how a leader goverment etc should be appointed.
As I have mentioned Quran has very few specific laws it is predominantly concerned with moral values- but you simply chose to ignore this point.
Please find me rules about selection of a Goverment, transport policy, enviormental policy, foreign policy... I could go on for ever I thin you get my gist.Read mqurans and Aymans posts! They can provide you with ample quranic references for you to look at.
Apologies I cannot find Ayman post but if you can post it again I will give you my opinion.
As for mquran below are the refernces he has given from the Quran to justify that Quran is anti-democratic3110 And to God is all that is in heavens and in the Earth; and to God the events will be returned.
3159 And if you die or are killed, then to God you will be gathered.
4238 The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
5810O you who believe, if you must meet secretly, then you shall not meet to commit sin, transgression, and to disobey the messenger. You shall meet to work righteousness and piety. And be aware of God, before whom you will be summoned.
His conclusions are as bizzare as suggesting 2+2=5. They simply defy any logic. Please expalin how you can possibly interpert the above as being anti-democracy
apologies for any mistakes in spelling etc in rush not checked
Regards -
Because this body is not elected by the people?
So where does this body come from? Please elaborate.
I don't know, you figure it out! I am sure it is not that hard! Read what you have written later in the post!!!
Quran talks about decision with consultatation there is not a mention of a formation of abody!
Read what you have said later in the post!!!
Quote
3159
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah.This has been construed as the leader working within dictatorship...or kingship.
Your understanding of English is very strange to me. The above to means when you have consulted and agreed upon a decision then put your trust in Allah that it will work or is the right decision. How can you even possibly construe this as working with dictatorship or King
Who is consulting who?
Bizzare? this is the ony thing that I have found that hints of some kind of democratic process...but please show me how quran is democratic even when it tells you that it opposes majority decisions and that majority are wrong?Where in that sentence does is suggest that that wishes of the majority in consultation process should be ignored. Has it occured to you that consulatation of affairs may also mean consultation to select a decision making body.
Hey you said previously that it does not mention of setting up a body! Now you say it does. So we are in agreement?
Quran opposes majority decisions because majority are wrong.
Exactly, thats why secular democracy is the only way to go.
I thought democracy was the will of the people? what if they chose not to have a secular goverment or do you define democracy as something which only agrees with your views!
Yes, but democracy also safe guards minority rights and minorities participate in the democractic process. The will of the people is thus expressed through this democratic process.
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
First of all you have both misquoted and misinterpreted 3150. As I have mentioned previousouly there is no reference in the Quran about a Caliph or how a leader goverment etc should be appointed.
appologies for the miquote chap! Cheer up -)
Please find me rules about selection of a Goverment, transport policy, enviormental policy, foreign policy... I could go on for ever I thin you get my gist.
Here is the gist for you Quran opposes majority decisions because it says majority are wrong.
Read mqurans and Aymans posts! They can provide you with ample quranic references for you to look at.
Apologies I cannot find Ayman post but if you can post it again I will give you my opinion.
Try searching for them by this key word "Absurdity of Theocracy"...
As for mquran below are the refernces he has given from the Quran to justify that Quran is anti-democratic
3110 And to God is all that is in heavens and in the Earth; and to God the events will be returned.
3159 And if you die or are killed, then to God you will be gathered.
4238 The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
5810O you who believe, if you must meet secretly, then you shall not meet to commit sin, transgression, and to disobey the messenger. You shall meet to work righteousness and piety. And be aware of God, before whom you will be summoned.
His conclusions are as bizzare as suggesting 2+2=5. They simply defy any logic. Please expalin how you can possibly interpert the above as being anti-democracy apologies for any mistakes in spelling etc in rush not checked
RegardsWell I am sure mquran will give his reasons to you...-)
Regards,
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Who is consulting who?
Bizzare? this is the ony thing that I have found that hints of some kind of democratic process...but please show me how quran is democratic even when it tells you that it opposes majority decisions and that majority are wrong?3/159 talks about BELIEVERS. The messenger consults with them, then HE takes a decision. There's no 'democractic element'. He doesn't ask 'hey, lets take a vote now'.
Al-quraan is about obeying Allah and his messenger, not democracy.
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Peace LK,
I think it does. While I can understand the feeling democracy evokes ('hey, getting everyone's opinion, how is that bad' type of feeling), I know it doesn't work in real life. Human beings are easily swayed from thier ideal and can act against thier own betterment. That of course includes me.
LT and I have talked a lot about this and if Im understanding him correctly, we both want the same thing and that is the best for humankind. Neither one of us wants any kind of oppression for humankind. We just have 2 different ways of getting there, thats all.
I believe that a messenger, one who practises the book, teaches the book and the hikmah and evolves people has the right to be obeyed and followed and when all humans do this, we will be lead into salaam/peace/security/abundance. I wait for one to turn up.
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peace mquran
I believe that a messenger, one who practises the book, teaches the book and the hikmah and evolves people has the right to be obeyed and followed and when all humans do this, we will be lead into salaam/peace/security/abundance. I wait for one to turn up.
I don't. I don't think there might be just "one" messenger. I rather have the idea that any true believer can sometimes act as a messenger. May be i'm still on the nabi(scripture bearing messenger)/rassol(more someone to remind of god) thing - may be i'm wrong. But i think that we're mostly on our own now and that anything you can attain has to be attained through personal growth and betterment.
Then again, a messenger does not have the right to be obeyed - no compulsion in deen...
Sorry if i don't answer fast, am quite busy these days, but looking forward to your response.
Elke
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Peace LK,
I don't. I don't think there might be just "one" messenger. I rather have the idea that any true believer can sometimes act as a messenger. May be i'm still on the nabi(scripture bearing messenger)/rassol(more someone to remind of god) thing - may be i'm wrong. But i think that we're mostly on our own now and that anything you can attain has to be attained through personal growth and betterment.
We're all acting the messenger role partly by participating in a quranic discussion. The messenger is us facililates growth. We can either kill this inner messenger or allow him to take over our lives, thus becoming ar-rasool.
Then again, a messenger does not have the right to be obeyed - no compulsion in deen...
His job for ppl who reject is delivery of the message. For one who believes, he has the right to obeyed because God commands us to obey the messenger.
Sorry if i don't answer fast, am quite busy these days, but looking forward to your response.
It's cool. I appreciate your stimulus of questioning. It helps interrogate my own thinking.
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I don't know, you figure it out! I am sure it is not that hard! Read what you have written later in the post!!!
Where in that sentence does is suggest that that wishes of the majority in consultation process should be ignored. Has it occured to you that consulatation of affairs may also mean consultation to select a decision making body.
Interesting you did not spot the deliberate irony here! You keep referring to a consultative body which Quran does not even mention, my point was simply to illustrate that the sentence actuallly made more sense by being interperted in an opposite way than what you appear to suggesting.
I am afraid this consultatative body is not mentioned in the Quran regardless as to whether you or I refer to it.Bizzare? this is the ony thing that I have found that hints of some kind of democratic process...but please show me how quran is democratic even when it tells you that it opposes majority decisions and that majority are wrong
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Hm! the majority are not always right but what has that got to do with democracy. Where exactly does the Quran opposes the majority decisions. By the way Hitler was initially elected by the German people-according to your logic they were right, democratic yes but right? perhaps you and i have different sense of right and wrong.Yes, but democracy also safe guards minority rights and minorities participate in the democractic process. The will of the people is thus expressed through this democratic process
I am not sure the relevance of your answer to the specific point, how exactly does the democracy safeguard the rights of minority. I thought democracy was the will of the majority!
appologies for the miquote chap! Cheer up
I am quite amused by your answers. Your style does certainly cheers me up-very civil.
Here is the gist for you Quran opposes majority decisions because it says majority are wrong
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Still awaiting for the reference. neither you or anyone else has so far produced any evidence. According to Quran the majority can be wrong- but ignore their wishes?-where.3159 And if you die or are killed, then to God you will be gathered
but mcquran interpertation is
3/159 talks about BELIEVERS. The messenger consults with them, then HE takes a decision. There's no 'democractic element'. He doesn't ask 'hey, lets take a vote now'.
Can someone more intelligent than myself explain how the above are related in any wayAl-quraan is about obeying Allah and his messenger, not democracy.
I see obeying Allah and his messenger makes you anti-democratic. I suppose in a democratic society no one obeys anyone.
Or are you suggesting that Quran is anti-democratic because no one elected God or the messangers! -
Still awaiting for the reference. neither you or anyone else has so far produced any evidence. According to Quran the majority can be wrong- but ignore their wishes?-where.
That's correct. 6/116 Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie
The wishes of these wrongful individuals are to lead people from the way of God. So yes, I'd think we need to ignore thier wishes.
3/159 talks about BELIEVERS. The messenger consults with them, then HE takes a decision. There's no 'democractic element'. He doesn't ask 'hey, lets take a vote now'.
Can someone more intelligent than myself explain how the above are related in any wayI don't know if im that person but I quoted 3/159 in order to show that the messenger does NOT ask for votes. He consults and makes a sole decision. It has nothing to do with the above quote.
Al-quraan is about obeying Allah and his messenger, not democracy.
I see obeying Allah and his messenger makes you anti-democratic. I suppose in a democratic society no one obeys anyone.
Or are you suggesting that Quran is anti-democratic because no one elected God or the messangers!Democracy power of the people. People are the legislators.
Al-Quraan is about al-kitaab GOD's legislations.
ar-rasool the person inspired to enact and implement God's legislations.
Therefore, in a quranic society, ar-rasool rules and people follow him. David and Solomon are best examples of this.
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SaLaM
First of all, the main point people use to protray Quran as anti-democratic is that "quran opposes majority decision". Quran is NOT opposed to majority decision. No where can anyone find such a ridiculous notion in the Quran. Quran simply says that majority of the people are astray. These are two different things. Put 100 people in a room, ask them a question "should we kill the innocent" and unless you gathers a bunch of sadistic murderes, they majority will say "no". Why would the Quran be against that? In the Quran there are 7 instances, that i know of, where God says majority is astray/wrong/misguided/blah blah blah ( 3.110 4.46 6.116 10.92 12.106 16.83 19.73) But no where that Quran is against majority decision. So upon examining the Quran clearly, one can see that Quran is democratic.
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Salaam
SaLaM
First of all, the main point people use to protray Quran as anti-democratic is that "quran opposes majority decision". Quran is NOT opposed to majority decision. No where can anyone find such a ridiculous notion in the Quran. Quran simply says that majority of the people are astray. These are two different things. Put 100 people in a room, ask them a question "should we kill the innocent" and unless you gathers a bunch of sadistic murderes, they majority will say "no". Why would the Quran be against that? In the Quran there are 7 instances, that i know of, where God says majority is astray/wrong/misguided/blah blah blah
Bless you. For being able to see the wood from the trees.
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Salaam Stilllearning,
Can I ask you a question. When Allah said
If you were to obey the majority of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but GUESSWORK they do nothing but lie (6/116)
Do you think He was referring to
- thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
or - thier ability to do sudoku (i.e. they cant do sudoku to save thier lives)
OR - thier inability to keep on the path (look at the verse itself, the underlined section).
Now can YOU see the wood from the trees?
It's all about actually analysing al-quraan.
- thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
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Salaam mcquran
Salaam Stilllearning,
Can I ask you a question. When Allah said
If you were to obey the majority of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but GUESSWORK they do nothing but lie (6/116)
Do you think He was referring to
- thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
or - thier ability to do sudoku (i.e. they cant do sudoku to save thier lives)
OR - thier inability to keep on the path (look at the verse itself, the underlined section).
Now can YOU see the wood from the trees?
It's all about actually analysing al-quraan.
Yes it is about analysing the quran. You have a very strange way of analysing it!
The verse you quote refers to majority of peoples belief in God i.e they do not beleive in him or the moral values he has outlined. Yes people do lie. How does the above equate with a system of a goverment. I think you need to read jaxal's post very carefully.
One simple question from your analysis of the Quran how should a system of goverment be chosen? - thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
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Salaam Stilllearning,
How does the above equate with a system of a goverment
May I first congratulate you for actually addressing the point! Now we can continue
You wroteThe verse you quote refers to majority of peoples belief in God i.e they do not beleive in him or the moral values he has outlined. Yes people do lie
Sorry but it doesn't say 'belief in god' but instead says 'they will lead you away from the way of God' . The PATH of Allah , sabeelilllah is mentioned here. The majority of the people will mislead from the path of Allah.
So can you trust these people to decide who to choose to hold power? If people don't believe in your moral values, will they decide on a candidate who defends Quranic moral values?
So-called Muslims have been fed so many lies about democracy that now they seek 'democratic islam' etc. Al-quraan contains nothing of this.
One simple question from your analysis of the Quran how should a system of goverment be chosen?
The head is ar-rasool who is the King. He follows the example of David and Solomon and he appoints people to run in various offices. They are all accountable to him.
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Interesting you did not spot the deliberate irony here!
Deliberate irony or stupid mistake on your behalf? But I am not here to play word games - go to an English forum for that!
You keep referring to a consultative body which Quran does not even mention, my point was simply to illustrate that the sentence actuallly made more sense by being interperted in an opposite way than what you appear to suggesting. I am afraid this consultatative body is not mentioned in the Quran regardless as to whether you or I refer to it.
Show me how quran is democractic?
Hm! the majority are not always right but what has that got to do with democracy. Where exactly does the Quran opposes the majority decisions.
Read the Quran!
By the way Hitler was initially elected by the German people-according to your logic they were right, democratic yes but right? perhaps you and i have different sense of right and wrong.
Oh please please stop stop bringing up this nonsense example about Hitler. Everyone uses this example to undermine democracy!
I am quite amused by your answers. Your style does certainly cheers me up-very civil.
Humour is the sun sun
that derives the winter from the human face -)Here is the gist for you Quran opposes majority decisions because it says majority are wrong
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Still awaiting for the reference. neither you or anyone else has so far produced any evidence. According to Quran the majority can be wrong- but ignore their wishes?-where.Find it yourself...that will be a "learning exercise" for you since you are still learning?
3159 And if you die or are killed, then to God you will be gathered
Which verse numbering are you using? Please check!
I see obeying Allah and his messenger makes you anti-democratic. I suppose in a democratic society no one obeys anyone.
Or are you suggesting that Quran is anti-democratic because no one elected God or the messangers!It will be easy for you to show me how quran is democractic? Yes?
Why not do this?Regards,
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Show me how quran is democractic?
So far LT neither you or anyone has been able to give a single decent argument against Quran being anti-democratic. Denail is not the way wink
As far Quran being against majority decisions, remember the surah on ABu Lahb? Anyways.