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Yeah, messengers are meant to be encouraging according to 9/103 (salla alaihim) but Shareef is like the Simon Cowell of the messengers.
(for those who don't know simon cowell is a judge on a program where ppl who want to make it as singers get thier egos beaten to a pulp while watched by millions of ppl)
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Salam All,
I've been reading all the threads about the genuine islam and genuine messenger stuff. Whether he returns to answer or not, doesn't matter. I agree with Elke. The rest of you should stop whatever you're doing. By constantly responding to his claims, you people have only fed his urge to reply at that point in time. Which is what he had been doing likewise from what I've seen on threads pertaining to this issue. Rather than criticize him and condescend him and let him do likewise, why not just drop the issue completely and let it rest? Is that what we're here for? To criticize others? If a person criticizes you and you criticize him in return, then tell me honestly, what difference is there between you and that person? Shouldn't one actually humble oneself and confront in a peaceful manner? This is afterall a forum. Not some no man's land. Please reflect on this.
Let's move on to discuss other more important issues and not constantly finding faults with one another. If anyone of you feel offended by my honest partake in this, then too bad. Feel free to defend yourselves. No, I'm neither being judgemental nor making assumptions. That is the last thing I'd do. I'm being impartial. And no, you people don't have to perceive things like how I do and no, I'm not being defensive of myself here. All I ask is for you people to chill out. Looking forward to posts not related to these issues. Thank you.
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May peace be upon all of you
I don't try to define myself by any manmade definition these days. I've gotten rid of the middle man and went straight to the source defining myself by my existence, choices, perspectives, and experiences the God has endowed upon me since the day He fashioned me in my mother's womb wink . However, from an outside perspective, I understand why and how someone would say we are part of the "quran sect".
Sure, I do not have the same convictions that some people at free-minds possess. We are all on our different paths, have different perspectives and knowledge, and have our own deens. However, many of us here do use the Qur'an alone as a guidance for balancing our lives and understanding. I mean, this is the message of the site, right? Why isn't this overwhelming commonality enough for someone to categorize us as a sect? From my perspective, it is. I'm not challenging the assumption that we are not a sect, but am trying to understand a different perspective than my own.
I think the sect question comes into play when we factor in the "organisation" of free-minds. We all have different points of view, most definitely. Additionally, most manmade sects are built upon conformity to certain rituals, expectations, and beliefs. Although everyone is welcome, many of us here try to use the qur'an as our focal point...a beacon of light so to speak. Now, where the God guides us after this is up to...well...the God.
Same focal point...different paths. The God fixed the earth as a mosaic of balanced diversity. So why would we automatically assume that the God would not operate his "system" any differently? And why does this disqualify us as a sect to someone who does not use the qur'an alone as a guidance? I'm doing some research on the differences between al muslimeen and al mumineen. If al mumineen refers to someone who follows the qur'an, would we not be a community then?
fading to silence.....
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Sure, I do not have the same convictions that some people at free-minds possess. We are all on our different paths, have different perspectives and knowledge, and have our own deens. However, many of us here do use the Qur'an alone as a guidance for balancing our lives and understanding. I mean, this is the message of the site, right? Why isn't this overwhelming commonality enough for someone to categorize us as a sect? From my perspective, it is. I'm not challenging the assumption that we are not a sect, but am trying to understand a different perspective than my own.
Well said, this. If this makes free-minds participants part of a 'sect', then so be it.
I however deny that the main group are 'muslims of the world'. I consider 'muslims of the world' as a socio-historical group with a post-quranic terminology. They have little or no quranic basis, essentially speaking.
Same focal point...different paths. The God fixed the earth as a mosaic of balanced diversity. So why would we automatically assume that the God would not operate his "system" any differently? And why does this disqualify us as a sect to someone who does not use the qur'an alone as a guidance? I'm doing some research on the differences between al muslimeen and al mumineen. If al mumineen refers to someone who follows the qur'an, would we not be a community then?
Al-mumineen refer to people who have achieved a psychobiological state of conviction. This conviction is translated in the worldly domain into certain states of behaviour.
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Layth and Edip were trying to merge Free Minds and Code 19 followers and I believe that did not go very well with majority of the members of Free Minds Forum. I have not heard anything lastest on the merger which infact is good. These loose alliances will lead to more confusion instead of creating unity. There is no way to agree on someone claiming to be a Messanger.
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Sure, I do not have the same convictions that some people at free-minds possess. We are all on our different paths, have different perspectives and knowledge, and have our own deens.
Doesn't this already negate secterianism? ?However, many of us here do use the Qur'an alone as a guidance for balancing our lives and understanding. I mean, this is the message of the site, right?
I know that myself, and a couple of people, at least, are not "Qur'an alone". God alone is the closest to any name you could give me. And I think that goes pretty well with what you said earlier;
I've gotten rid of the middle man and went straight to the sourceMaybe anyone here would care to clarify;
- What is the name of this sect? (free-minds?... are the members free-minders? ? )
- Is this sect a smaller part of the main group - muslims? (as mquran talked about)
- Is there a leader/messenger as other sects have.
- Is there a common understanding/rules that we abide by or follow?
Just checkng. )
Peace. )>-
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Layth and Edip were trying to merge Free Minds and Code 19 followers and I believe that did not go very well with majority of the members of Free Minds Forum. I have not heard anything lastest on the merger which infact is good. These loose alliances will lead to more confusion instead of creating unity. There is no way to agree on someone claiming to be a Messanger.
Well, any effort to unite in order be good is to be commended, imho.
However, Edip needs to clarify how much of al-quraan he believes in. He deletes 9/128-129 , don't forget. Layth also needs to declare if he belives in 'hafs' or 'warsh' or a combination of the two. So these guys need to align themselves to each other if they're a 'quranic group'.
The only way to move is to have a leader, one who fulfils the role of the messenger.
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I know that myself, and a couple of people, at least, are not "Qur'an alone". God alone is the closest to any name you could give me. And I think that goes pretty well with what you said earlier
I agree you can be God alone without being Quran alone. However, you cannot be God alone without being KITAAB alone. Al-kitaab here refers to God's writ in the universe. If you associate God's writ with anything else, then you're not God alone in my understanding.
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Peace Mquran,
Al-mumineen refer to people who have achieved a psychobiological state of conviction. This conviction is translated in the worldly domain into certain states of behaviour.
Yes, I have had that understanding for some time now. However, I have recently questioned the simplicity of this statement and am trying to ensure that this conclusion is, at the very least, to the best of my knowledge. Let me clarify that I am not saying that this state of being is simple to achieve or is common. In order to achieve this psychological state takes a lot of transformation of which human "will" and perspective are often henderences. Does that make sense?
Anyway. thanks for the word.
ONE.
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Yes, I have had that understanding for some time now. However, I have recently questioned the simplicity of this statement and am trying to ensure that this conclusion is, at the very least, to the best of my knowledge. Let me clarify that I am not saying that this state of being is simple to achieve or is common. In order to achieve this psychological state takes a lot of transformation of which human "will" and perspective are often henderences. Does that make sense?
Yes, it does make sense. What I'd like to see is the mechanics, results and program to transform oneself into this state. The size of the task is daunting due to the size of the map we need to draw. But thanks for your input on this ) 'preciate it.
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Doesn't this already negate secterianism? ?
Why does it?
I know that myself, and a couple of people, at least, are not "Qur'an alone". God alone is the closest to any name you could give me. D And I think that goes pretty well with what you said earlier
Yes. This is why I qualified my statement with "many"...as to point out that some people here may not consult the qur'an as a guidance in their lives.
Maybe anyone here would care to clarify;
- What is the name of this sect? (free-minds?... are the members free-minders? ? )
- Is this sect a smaller part of the main group - muslims? (as mquran talked about)
- Is there a leader/messenger as other sects have.
- Is there a common understanding/rules that we abide by or follow?
Just checkng. )
I think that I may be talking about a different thing. I was debating whether or not a group of people who follow the qur'an alone could be considered a "sect". My opinion yes, others could. My opinion on free-minds is that it is a website that largely promotes guidance and understanding by the qur'an alone, but doesn't entail everything in my own deen and is a place where everyone of all backgrounds can come and present their perspectives and knowledge. That's it. So, in essence, it has a lot of people who follow the qur'an alone, but that's not it. And you're right...if this website became a sect, what would it be called? Sorry, but I don't think "free-minder" is neither catchy nor accurate lol
One doesn't have to follow the qur'an to be God alone, of course. You can find out answers regarding God's system in the universe by numerous channels. I mean, a scientist who is studying quantum physics is also learning about how God fashioned the universe, is he not?
Peace back to ya! )>-
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Layth did say, if I remember correctly that Rashad Al Khalifah was the Messanger. Rashad Al Khalifah Code 19 followers will not include 9-128 -9-129 becaue that will make Rashad Al Khalifah claim to be a Messanger and Qur'an is divisible by 19. Ayman has very brilliantly debated this issue on Code 19 and I realy don't have anything more to add on Code 19.
The unity could be achieved if we don't try to temper with the message of Qur'an in the name of moderization. Do not try to change the verses numbering because they are old. These verses numbering is for the sake of referencing than leave them alone don't as they are and don't try to change them because you have found it in some historical documents. History can't be error free.
MQu'an Leader who can unite us is the more appropriate than any Messanger.
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Salaam KGB,
Layth did say, if I remember correctly that Rashad Al Khalifah was the Messanger. Rashad Al Khalifah Code 19 followers will not include 9-128 -9-129 becaue that will make Rashad Al Khalifah claim to be a Messanger and Qur'an is divisible by 19. Ayman has very brilliantly debated this issue on Code 19 and I realy don't have anything more to add on Code 19.
Personally, I would never run with anyone who questions the integrity of al-quraan. While I respect Layth and his initiatives, his stand on the Warsh prevents me from joining up. The same would be true if Ayman started a movement, because its 'anything goes' once u question the text itself. Not that im any great asset, just stating my point that all.
The unity could be achieved if we don't try to temper with the message of Qur'an in the name of moderization. Do not try to change the verses numbering because they are old. These verses numbering is for the sake of referencing than leave them alone don't as they are and don't try to change them because you have found it in some historical documents. History can't be error free.
They can change the 'sura' names and the numbering if they like. Once they change the actual text itself, then things get problematic.
MQu'an Leader who can unite us is the more appropriate than any Messanger
KGB, perhaps we're talking past each other due to the meaning of the words we use, not the words itself.
To me, ar-rasool is different from al-mursal (one who bears the message). Ar-rasool is the EMBODIMENT of the risalaat, the message. He walks, talks and breathes al-quraan. He is the epicentre of the movement, he leads, encourages and is the controller of its internal economy. There really isn't a movement without this guy, KGB.
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Layth did say, if I remember correctly that Rashad Al Khalifah was the Messanger.
Correction...As I mentioned previously, I am not a believer in Rashad or his claim to messengership. I will use this post to prove to you why he is not the one in 381 and therefore he is teaching false ideas.
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In my conclusion, Rashad Khalifa is NOT the messenger the prophets vowed to support in 381, but he has made a claim to messengership and required people to believe in him before they can be considered Muslim! (see his footnotes for 381). These teachings are not only false, but also blasphemous, and thus will incurr the punishment of 693
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=794Peace
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wow, the debate is now on what layth said and didnt say
Layth,do us all a favour.tell us yourself what led u to create this forum, and what this forum is all about, so that it would get clearer to everyone participating here.
that should put an end to all the fears related to free-minds becoming a sect or anything of that sort. -
Why is everyone getting so worked up about a word anyway?
'sect' ?? u can say it and it wont bite.
If FM is sect, so what? Is 'the main body of muslims' a legitimate term ? If not, how did FM become a sect?
Does FM exclude anyone? Even people who can't read participate in this forum!
Does FM have wierd rituals where Layth dresses up like the Grandee of the KKK and chant 'death to non-fm'ers' and burns copies of Bukhari's hadith ? Well I don't know for sure, but im guessing not.
FM is a discussion group. It doesn't even come close to the quranic definition of the islamic movement. So we're not playing by anyones rules except the one who defines the word.
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"Layth" I accept his claim to messengership. I do not however accept his footnote about 381 or the issue of the 2 verses in sura 9 or alot of the other research he came-up with. Link http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2836&highlight=
Allah Taala has given me excellent memory. Put some extra memory slots in my brian.