Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Still awaiting for the reference. neither you or anyone else has so far produced any evidence. According to Quran the majority can be wrong- but ignore their wishes?-where.
That's correct. 6/116 Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie
The wishes of these wrongful individuals are to lead people from the way of God. So yes, I'd think we need to ignore thier wishes.
3/159 talks about BELIEVERS. The messenger consults with them, then HE takes a decision. There's no 'democractic element'. He doesn't ask 'hey, lets take a vote now'.
Can someone more intelligent than myself explain how the above are related in any wayI don't know if im that person but I quoted 3/159 in order to show that the messenger does NOT ask for votes. He consults and makes a sole decision. It has nothing to do with the above quote.
Al-quraan is about obeying Allah and his messenger, not democracy.
I see obeying Allah and his messenger makes you anti-democratic. I suppose in a democratic society no one obeys anyone.
Or are you suggesting that Quran is anti-democratic because no one elected God or the messangers!Democracy power of the people. People are the legislators.
Al-Quraan is about al-kitaab GOD's legislations.
ar-rasool the person inspired to enact and implement God's legislations.
Therefore, in a quranic society, ar-rasool rules and people follow him. David and Solomon are best examples of this.
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SaLaM
First of all, the main point people use to protray Quran as anti-democratic is that "quran opposes majority decision". Quran is NOT opposed to majority decision. No where can anyone find such a ridiculous notion in the Quran. Quran simply says that majority of the people are astray. These are two different things. Put 100 people in a room, ask them a question "should we kill the innocent" and unless you gathers a bunch of sadistic murderes, they majority will say "no". Why would the Quran be against that? In the Quran there are 7 instances, that i know of, where God says majority is astray/wrong/misguided/blah blah blah ( 3.110 4.46 6.116 10.92 12.106 16.83 19.73) But no where that Quran is against majority decision. So upon examining the Quran clearly, one can see that Quran is democratic.
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Salaam
SaLaM
First of all, the main point people use to protray Quran as anti-democratic is that "quran opposes majority decision". Quran is NOT opposed to majority decision. No where can anyone find such a ridiculous notion in the Quran. Quran simply says that majority of the people are astray. These are two different things. Put 100 people in a room, ask them a question "should we kill the innocent" and unless you gathers a bunch of sadistic murderes, they majority will say "no". Why would the Quran be against that? In the Quran there are 7 instances, that i know of, where God says majority is astray/wrong/misguided/blah blah blah
Bless you. For being able to see the wood from the trees.
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Salaam Stilllearning,
Can I ask you a question. When Allah said
If you were to obey the majority of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but GUESSWORK they do nothing but lie (6/116)
Do you think He was referring to
- thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
or - thier ability to do sudoku (i.e. they cant do sudoku to save thier lives)
OR - thier inability to keep on the path (look at the verse itself, the underlined section).
Now can YOU see the wood from the trees?
It's all about actually analysing al-quraan.
- thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
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Salaam mcquran
Salaam Stilllearning,
Can I ask you a question. When Allah said
If you were to obey the majority of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but GUESSWORK they do nothing but lie (6/116)
Do you think He was referring to
- thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
or - thier ability to do sudoku (i.e. they cant do sudoku to save thier lives)
OR - thier inability to keep on the path (look at the verse itself, the underlined section).
Now can YOU see the wood from the trees?
It's all about actually analysing al-quraan.
Yes it is about analysing the quran. You have a very strange way of analysing it!
The verse you quote refers to majority of peoples belief in God i.e they do not beleive in him or the moral values he has outlined. Yes people do lie. How does the above equate with a system of a goverment. I think you need to read jaxal's post very carefully.
One simple question from your analysis of the Quran how should a system of goverment be chosen? - thier taste in food (i.e. they dont know the best restaurants)
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Salaam Stilllearning,
How does the above equate with a system of a goverment
May I first congratulate you for actually addressing the point! Now we can continue
You wroteThe verse you quote refers to majority of peoples belief in God i.e they do not beleive in him or the moral values he has outlined. Yes people do lie
Sorry but it doesn't say 'belief in god' but instead says 'they will lead you away from the way of God' . The PATH of Allah , sabeelilllah is mentioned here. The majority of the people will mislead from the path of Allah.
So can you trust these people to decide who to choose to hold power? If people don't believe in your moral values, will they decide on a candidate who defends Quranic moral values?
So-called Muslims have been fed so many lies about democracy that now they seek 'democratic islam' etc. Al-quraan contains nothing of this.
One simple question from your analysis of the Quran how should a system of goverment be chosen?
The head is ar-rasool who is the King. He follows the example of David and Solomon and he appoints people to run in various offices. They are all accountable to him.
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Interesting you did not spot the deliberate irony here!
Deliberate irony or stupid mistake on your behalf? But I am not here to play word games - go to an English forum for that!
You keep referring to a consultative body which Quran does not even mention, my point was simply to illustrate that the sentence actuallly made more sense by being interperted in an opposite way than what you appear to suggesting. I am afraid this consultatative body is not mentioned in the Quran regardless as to whether you or I refer to it.
Show me how quran is democractic?
Hm! the majority are not always right but what has that got to do with democracy. Where exactly does the Quran opposes the majority decisions.
Read the Quran!
By the way Hitler was initially elected by the German people-according to your logic they were right, democratic yes but right? perhaps you and i have different sense of right and wrong.
Oh please please stop stop bringing up this nonsense example about Hitler. Everyone uses this example to undermine democracy!
I am quite amused by your answers. Your style does certainly cheers me up-very civil.
Humour is the sun sun
that derives the winter from the human face -)Here is the gist for you Quran opposes majority decisions because it says majority are wrong
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Still awaiting for the reference. neither you or anyone else has so far produced any evidence. According to Quran the majority can be wrong- but ignore their wishes?-where.Find it yourself...that will be a "learning exercise" for you since you are still learning?
3159 And if you die or are killed, then to God you will be gathered
Which verse numbering are you using? Please check!
I see obeying Allah and his messenger makes you anti-democratic. I suppose in a democratic society no one obeys anyone.
Or are you suggesting that Quran is anti-democratic because no one elected God or the messangers!It will be easy for you to show me how quran is democractic? Yes?
Why not do this?Regards,
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Show me how quran is democractic?
So far LT neither you or anyone has been able to give a single decent argument against Quran being anti-democratic. Denail is not the way wink
As far Quran being against majority decisions, remember the surah on ABu Lahb? Anyways.
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Show me how quran is democractic?
So far LT neither you or anyone has been able to give a single decent argument against Quran being anti-democratic. Denail is not the way wink
As far Quran being against majority decisions, remember the surah on ABu Lahb? Anyways.
Here is it again for you
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
Regards,
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Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
But Didnt Quran came down for the whole of mankind? Where the Earth is one big society? Law will be made by the people for the people for the society they live in by studying the Quran. So whoever is incharge of making the laws, he will ho through the Quran and make it a law that 'innocents shouldnt be killed'. Why would the Quran be against that?
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LTSecondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
Very accurate indeed LT. You can either obey the messenger or not. Those who do ,will be given the rahmaat of Allah and those who don't won't.
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To lot tree
Deliberate irony or stupid mistake on your behalf? But I am not here to play word games - go to an English forum for that!
Of course you are not playing with words by keep referring to a consultative body in the Quran. Which the Quran does not mention anywhere. Your refernce has now become my mention of this word by myself. this obviousouly is neither stupid or playing word games!
Show me how quran is democractic
Ok lets go back to the beginning of this discussion. You categorically stated Quran is anti democratic. Your reasoning was based on
(1) Quran does not bind the leaders to accept majority decisions where the democracy does. Myself and I think Idris have written how this statement is not flawed but completely wrong. As far I can see you have not referred to this point again.
(2) To back the above statement you keep harping on about the consultative body ignoring majority decisions. This elusive consultative body still remains elusive.Show me how quran is democractic
Hm! I thought you started by saying the Quran was antidemocracy-is the onus not on you to prove your point. For your informationthe Quran does not say how to form a goverment, ruling body or what ever name wish to give it You seem to have great difficulty in grasping this. I cannot prove something is in the Quran when there is no reference to it!
Quran does state that God has given us sight, hearing and intelligence and do not accept anything that you cannot verify yourself. Well I have used my intelligence to reach the conclusion that democracy is the best system to date.Read the Quran!
I have & still do, have you? As it is not obvious from what you written so far.
stillearning wrote
By the way Hitler was initially elected by the German people-according to your logic they were right, democratic yes but right? perhaps you and i have different sense of right and wrong.Oh please please stop stop bringing up this nonsense example about Hitler. Everyone uses this example to undermine democracy!
It was not meant to undermine democracy but to simply point out that majority are not always right.stillearning wrote
I am quite amused by your answers. Your style does certainly cheers me up-very civil.
Apologies I take it back. Big mistake on my part. I am quite prepared to accept when I am wrong.
Find it yourself...that will be a "learning exercise" for you since you are still learning
I hope I can stillearn for the rest of my life as unfortunately the only people, whom I have come across, who stop learning are those who are mentally impaired. From your tone it appears that you feel you do not need to learn anymore.
It will be easy for you to show me how quran is democractic? Yes?
Why not do this?see above
Salaam mcquran
May I first congratulate you for actually addressing the point! Now we can continue
Thank you for pointing in the right direction!Sorry but it doesn't say 'belief in god' but instead says 'they will lead you away from the way of God' . The PATH of Allah , sabeelilllah is mentioned here. The majority of the people will mislead from the path of Allah.
Sorry does the path to God not include belief or is it some journey you undertake along a particular path?
So can you trust these people to decide who to choose to hold power? If people don't believe in your moral values, will they decide on a candidate who defends Quranic moral values?
I probably will not vote for someone who I dont trust. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose. I was not aware there was a compulsion in a religion. I wish the majority shared my moral values but if they dont then I certainly will not and besides cannot force them to agree. However your point here as its relevance to selection of a goevrning system is lost on me!
The head is ar-rasool who is the King.
I am definitely lost here, who is the ar-rasool who will appoint the King today or is the king already appointed.
Regards -
(1) Quran does not bind the leaders to accept majority decisions where the democracy does.
Myself and I think Idris have written how this statement is not flawed but completely wrong. As far I can see you have not referred to this point again.
(2) To back the above statement you keep harping on about the consultative body ignoring majority decisions. This elusive consultative body still remains elusive.
Here is it again for you
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
Regards,
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Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
REpeating your point wont make it right wink Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
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Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
REpeating your point wont make it right wink Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
Here it is again - ponder on it while you munch away a big bucket of KFC ... -)
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
But know this, the answer is now staring in your face - Jaxal, you will just have to find it chap. Ok?
Regards,
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Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
REpeating your point wont make it right wink Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
Here it is again - ponder on it while you munch away a big bucket of KFC ... -)
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
But know this, the answer is now staring in your face - Jaxal, you will just have to find it chap. Ok?
Regards,
Woww. Amazing. And you speak english? lol Becoz i swear i asked for a verse reference somewhere in there. Now ofcourse, if you dont know the verse from the Quran, then you can simply say so. lol
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LoteTree wrote
Jaxal wrote
Quote
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.REpeating your point wont make it right Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
Here it is again - ponder on it while you munch away a big bucket of KFC ...
Quote
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.But know this, the answer is now staring in your face - Jaxal, you will just have to find it chap. Ok?
Regards,
Let me repeat Jaxal's comment. Where does the Quran forbid law-making, reference please. In bold as you appear to suffer peculiar blind spots when reading.
Do you actually understand what law-making means. Can you give Quranic reference regards driving speeds, pollution etc. Persuambly in a Quranic law society people would need these to function or perhaps has the Quran forbidden making of such laws! -
Salaamun alaikum Stilllearning,
Sorry does the path to God not include belief or is it some journey you undertake along a particular path?
It does include belief but my point is, the quran is saying the vast majority of the people will mislead us from the path. Therefore trusting thier opinion on who should lead is detrimental.
I probably will not vote for someone who I dont trust. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose. I was not aware there was a compulsion in a religion. I wish the majority shared my moral values but if they dont then I certainly will not and besides cannot force them to agree. However your point here as its relevance to selection of a goevrning system is lost on me!
Our deen doesn't have compulsion indeed. Whoever disagrees with the Islamic command is free to leave. This is not about getting people to agree with you but to establish the program of al-islaam. Nowhere does the program concern itself with winning people over but instead its all about serving Allah. When you serve Allah, the program is activated.
I am definitely lost here, who is the ar-rasool who will appoint the King today or is the king already appointed
No no, ar-rasool once he is established is also 'malik' or king. He holds absolute power over the dominion, like David and Solomon did. He may confer with them if he so wishes, but the decision is his.
Regards
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Shalom LT,
You're absolutely right, the Quran forbids legislation by human beings.
"Shall I seek for legislator other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you THE BOOK EXPLAINED IN DETAIL." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt (6/114)
We have sent down to thee THE BOOK IN TRUTH, that thou mightest JUDGE BETWEEN HUMANKIND, as guided by God so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust (4/105)
To thee We sent THE BOOK IN TRUTH, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so JUDGE BETWEEN THEM by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires.... (5/4
The book of Allah is the standard of judgement by which all believers judge. They have no choice in the matter if they are true believers.
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been DECIDED BY GOD AND THE MESSENGER to have any option about their decision if any one disobeys God and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.(33/36)
Nowhere does al-quraan tell believers to confer with the rest of the people for the issue of governance. Nowhere at all.
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Changing the word of God? No wonder some people have a screwed understanding of the Quran. roll
Khalifa
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
Yusuf Ali
Say "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
Pickthal
Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained ? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
Shakir
Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
Sher Ali
Shall I seek for a judge other than Allah, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the Book fully explained ? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt.
"Progressive Muslims"
Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.Difference between judge and legislator
Judge One who judges
Legislator One who makes lawKhalifa
We have sent down to you the scripture, truthfully, in order to judge among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
Yusuf Ali
We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by God so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;
Pickthal
Lo! We reveal unto thee the Scripture with the truth, that thou mayst judge between mankind by that which Allah showeth thee. And be not thou a pleader for the treacherous;
Shakir
Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous.
Sher Ali
WE have surely sent down to thee the Book comprising the truth, that thou mayest judge between men by what Allah has taught thee. And be not thou a disputer on behalf of the faithless;
"Progressive Muslims"
We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God Has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.Nothing in the above verse which forbids law making from with in the Quran.
Khalifa
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
Yusuf Ali
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Pickthal
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
Shakir
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
Sher Ali
And WE have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you WE prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced HIS will, HE would have made you all one people, but HE wishes to try you by that which HE has given you. Vie then with one another in doing good works. To Allah shall you all return; then HE will inform you of that wherein you differed;
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God Has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.Again, nothing in the above verse which forbids law making from within the Quran.
Khalifa
No believing man or believing woman, if GOD and His messenger issue any command, has any choice regarding that command. Anyone who disobeys GOD and His messenger has gone far astray.
Yusuf Ali
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by God and His Apostle to have any option about their decision if any one disobeys God and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
Pickthal
And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
Shakir
And it behooves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Sher Ali
And it behoves not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and HIS Messenger have decided a matter, that they should exercise their own choice in the matter concerning them. And whoso disobeys Allah and HIS Messenger, surely, strays away in manifest error.
"Progressive Muslims"
It is not for a believing man or believing woman, if God and His messenger issue any command, that they have any choice in their decision. And anyone who disobeys God and His messenger, he has gone far astray.Again, nothing in the above verse which forbids law making from within the Quran.
Still, if thinking Quran is against majority decisions makes people sleep easier at night. Who am i to change that D