Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
-
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
REpeating your point wont make it right wink Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
-
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
REpeating your point wont make it right wink Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
Here it is again - ponder on it while you munch away a big bucket of KFC ... -)
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
But know this, the answer is now staring in your face - Jaxal, you will just have to find it chap. Ok?
Regards,
-
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
REpeating your point wont make it right wink Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
Here it is again - ponder on it while you munch away a big bucket of KFC ... -)
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
But know this, the answer is now staring in your face - Jaxal, you will just have to find it chap. Ok?
Regards,
Woww. Amazing. And you speak english? lol Becoz i swear i asked for a verse reference somewhere in there. Now ofcourse, if you dont know the verse from the Quran, then you can simply say so. lol
-
LoteTree wrote
Jaxal wrote
Quote
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.REpeating your point wont make it right Anyways, can you back that statment up using the Quran? you say Quran forbids people to make laws. But will that be true if the laws are derieved from the Quran itself?
Here it is again - ponder on it while you munch away a big bucket of KFC ...
Quote
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.But know this, the answer is now staring in your face - Jaxal, you will just have to find it chap. Ok?
Regards,
Let me repeat Jaxal's comment. Where does the Quran forbid law-making, reference please. In bold as you appear to suffer peculiar blind spots when reading.
Do you actually understand what law-making means. Can you give Quranic reference regards driving speeds, pollution etc. Persuambly in a Quranic law society people would need these to function or perhaps has the Quran forbidden making of such laws! -
Salaamun alaikum Stilllearning,
Sorry does the path to God not include belief or is it some journey you undertake along a particular path?
It does include belief but my point is, the quran is saying the vast majority of the people will mislead us from the path. Therefore trusting thier opinion on who should lead is detrimental.
I probably will not vote for someone who I dont trust. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose. I was not aware there was a compulsion in a religion. I wish the majority shared my moral values but if they dont then I certainly will not and besides cannot force them to agree. However your point here as its relevance to selection of a goevrning system is lost on me!
Our deen doesn't have compulsion indeed. Whoever disagrees with the Islamic command is free to leave. This is not about getting people to agree with you but to establish the program of al-islaam. Nowhere does the program concern itself with winning people over but instead its all about serving Allah. When you serve Allah, the program is activated.
I am definitely lost here, who is the ar-rasool who will appoint the King today or is the king already appointed
No no, ar-rasool once he is established is also 'malik' or king. He holds absolute power over the dominion, like David and Solomon did. He may confer with them if he so wishes, but the decision is his.
Regards
-
Shalom LT,
You're absolutely right, the Quran forbids legislation by human beings.
"Shall I seek for legislator other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you THE BOOK EXPLAINED IN DETAIL." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt (6/114)
We have sent down to thee THE BOOK IN TRUTH, that thou mightest JUDGE BETWEEN HUMANKIND, as guided by God so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust (4/105)
To thee We sent THE BOOK IN TRUTH, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so JUDGE BETWEEN THEM by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires.... (5/4
The book of Allah is the standard of judgement by which all believers judge. They have no choice in the matter if they are true believers.
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been DECIDED BY GOD AND THE MESSENGER to have any option about their decision if any one disobeys God and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.(33/36)
Nowhere does al-quraan tell believers to confer with the rest of the people for the issue of governance. Nowhere at all.
-
Changing the word of God? No wonder some people have a screwed understanding of the Quran. roll
Khalifa
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
Yusuf Ali
Say "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
Pickthal
Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained ? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
Shakir
Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
Sher Ali
Shall I seek for a judge other than Allah, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the Book fully explained ? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt.
"Progressive Muslims"
Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.Difference between judge and legislator
Judge One who judges
Legislator One who makes lawKhalifa
We have sent down to you the scripture, truthfully, in order to judge among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
Yusuf Ali
We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by God so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;
Pickthal
Lo! We reveal unto thee the Scripture with the truth, that thou mayst judge between mankind by that which Allah showeth thee. And be not thou a pleader for the treacherous;
Shakir
Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous.
Sher Ali
WE have surely sent down to thee the Book comprising the truth, that thou mayest judge between men by what Allah has taught thee. And be not thou a disputer on behalf of the faithless;
"Progressive Muslims"
We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God Has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.Nothing in the above verse which forbids law making from with in the Quran.
Khalifa
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
Yusuf Ali
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Pickthal
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
Shakir
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
Sher Ali
And WE have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you WE prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced HIS will, HE would have made you all one people, but HE wishes to try you by that which HE has given you. Vie then with one another in doing good works. To Allah shall you all return; then HE will inform you of that wherein you differed;
"Progressive Muslims"
And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God Has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.Again, nothing in the above verse which forbids law making from within the Quran.
Khalifa
No believing man or believing woman, if GOD and His messenger issue any command, has any choice regarding that command. Anyone who disobeys GOD and His messenger has gone far astray.
Yusuf Ali
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by God and His Apostle to have any option about their decision if any one disobeys God and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
Pickthal
And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
Shakir
And it behooves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Sher Ali
And it behoves not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and HIS Messenger have decided a matter, that they should exercise their own choice in the matter concerning them. And whoso disobeys Allah and HIS Messenger, surely, strays away in manifest error.
"Progressive Muslims"
It is not for a believing man or believing woman, if God and His messenger issue any command, that they have any choice in their decision. And anyone who disobeys God and His messenger, he has gone far astray.Again, nothing in the above verse which forbids law making from within the Quran.
Still, if thinking Quran is against majority decisions makes people sleep easier at night. Who am i to change that D
-
Salaam mquran
Sorry but it doesn't say 'belief in god' but instead says 'they will lead you away from the way of God' . The PATH of Allah , sabeelilllah is mentioned here. The majority of the people will mislead from the path of Allah
.Above your original interpetation and below your subsequent one. At last we are least (still long way) but getting somewhere.
It does include belief but my point is, the quran is saying the vast majority of the people will mislead us from the path. Therefore trusting thier opinion on who should lead is detrimental.
Selecting a govermental system to make laws such as how to run schools, transport, protect enviorment does not in any way equate to letting the majority lead you from the path of God. I think you need to study the function of a Goverment, because either you simply do not understand or simply refuse to.
No no, ar-rasool once he is established is also 'malik' or king. He holds absolute power over the dominion, like David and Solomon did. He may confer with them if he so wishes, but the decision is his.
So is there an established ar-rasool at present and who is he?
-
Selecting a govermental system to make laws such as how to run schools, transport, protect enviorment does not in any way equate to letting the majority lead you from the path of God. I think you need to study the function of a Goverment, because either you simply do not understand or simply refuse to.
It depends on who sets the POLICIES. Al-quraan allows individualisation on these levels
- wajh (face, expressions)
- manhaaj (methodology)
- shariaa (by laws)
- manasik (duties)
but nowhere does it allow humankind to legislate for the believers. I ask you to bring the evidence from al-quraan if you disagree.
If we take the example of education. In a democracy, we open our choices to be made by people who aren't interested in sabeelillah, hence thier values erode a system designed to produce quality individuals. Its happening right now in the UK.
So is there an established ar-rasool at present and who is he?
Well, we got Shareef, but so far he's failed to bring clear evidence.
-
Quote
Selecting a govermental system to make laws such as how to run schools, transport, protect enviorment does not in any way equate to letting the majority lead you from the path of God. I think you need to study the function of a Goverment, because either you simply do not understand or simply refuse to.It depends on who sets the POLICIES. Al-quraan allows individualisation on these levels
- wajh (face, expressions)
- manhaaj (methodology)
- shariaa (by laws)
- manasik (duties)
I persume the above answer makes sense you, as I see no relevance to the point I raised.
but nowhere does it allow humankind to legislate for the believers. I ask you to bring the evidence from al-quraan if you disagree.
I wish you would read my previous posts properly. YOU CANNOT PROVE OR DISAPPROVE WHAT IS NOT IN THE QURAN. THERE IS NO MENTION OF HOW TO FORM A GOVERMENT OR RULING BODY OR TO USE YOUR PHRASE A LEGISLATIVE BODY. ....GOD HAS GIVEN YOU SIGHT, HEARING AND INTELLIGENCE DO NOTACCEPT WHAT YOU CANNOT VERIFY FOR YOURSELF
Well, we got Shareef, but so far he's failed to bring clear evidence
.
Ok who was it before Shareef ?
(Incidentally I have come across about half-dozen individuals who have made similar claims to Shareef and all of them have either been or under the care of a Consultant Psychiatrist who refer to these people as schizophrenics-just for information only I do not wish to side track the discussion) -
SaLaM
Oh is it time yet where those that cannot prove a point start posting garbage? You know with shareef being messenger an' all roll . Anyone who can take shareef to be a mesenger sent from God clearly demonstrates the depth of his ability to think and comprehend. Anyways...
stilllearning, i never thought of the excellent points you raised. On that note, have you read the Progressive Muslim's draft constitution? Even tho in my opinion some of the verse references used are just way off, it still advocates democracy. On the other hand, sunnis are the one that undermine the democracy that the Quran promotes by taking away the choices from the induvidual. You are either muslim or be killed. YOu have to follow him, him, and him to be a true muslim. So on and so on.
-
I persume the above answer makes sense you, as I see no relevance to the point I raised.
The point is this. These 4 variables I mentioned are ok to be individuated. Lets take our school example again. In an islamic mulk/domain, the rasool/king would tell us what the ahkaam/permanent divine laws are on education. He'd probably look at Luqman's story in chapter 31.
What we CALL the school doesnt matter. How the school building looks like is no problem. How the teachers bring about understanding in the pupils is probably not the matter either.
The thing that matters is the permanent, unchanging laws which is clarified in al-quraan.
I wish you would read my previous posts properly. YOU CANNOT PROVE OR DISAPPROVE WHAT IS NOT IN THE QURAN. THERE IS NO MENTION OF HOW TO FORM A GOVERMENT OR RULING BODY OR TO USE YOUR PHRASE A LEGISLATIVE BODY. ....GOD HAS GIVEN YOU SIGHT, HEARING AND INTELLIGENCE DO NOTACCEPT WHAT YOU CANNOT VERIFY FOR YOURSELF
There's no mention of how to form a legislative body for the same reason there's no reason on how to form a wine distiilery either. It's not part of the program of al-quraan. Ar-rasuul may appoint people to decide things if he wishes but ulimate authority is his.
Ok who was it before Shareef ?
Don't know. Don't really care either.
(Incidentally I have come across about half-dozen individuals who have made similar claims to Shareef and all of them have either been or under the care of a Consultant Psychiatrist who refer to these people as schizophrenics-just for information only I do not wish to side track the discussion
Ok. Al-quraan does tell us that kafireen will say that messengers are out of thier minds. Not to side track, just for information only. Al-quraan is al-furqaan, so there's a way of finding out if a messenger truly is so or not.
-
What we CALL the school doesnt matter. How the school building looks like is no problem. How the teachers bring about understanding in the pupils is probably not the matter either.
Like i said before you need to learn what the function of a legislative body are. How a School is build may not matter to you but it does to most decent human beings (muslim or not). Let us assume there were no building rules and a completely unsafe building was erected which due to its design results in the death of children teachers etc. It may not matter to people like yourself but the rest i dont think so!
There's no mention of how to form a legislative body for the same reason there's no reason on how to form a wine distiilery either.
You are not really serious are you. I think most people can live without distillery but without any laws? Great i can drive at any speed, smash anybodies head in ( I am not aware of the Quran mentioning physical injury), rob banks-as there are no banks mentioned in the Quran. Do you get the point!Don't know. Don't really care either.
Thats just about sums you up I think(see my example on schools)
-
Like i said before you need to learn what the function of a legislative body are. How a School is build may not matter to you but it does to most decent human beings (muslim or not). Let us assume there were no building rules and a completely unsafe building was erected which due to its design results in the death of children teachers etc. It may not matter to people like yourself but the rest i dont think so!
Oh, im not talking about building rules. Im talking about the STYLE of the building. Al-quraan has policies of safety of the people, the life of a human being is most valuable indeed.
What im saying is this
The ESSENCE of things is defined by al-quraan. How we carry out that essence is up to us. The essence can be seen in al-quraan's ahkaam.
You are not really serious are you. I think most people can live without distillery but without any laws? Great i can drive at any speed, smash anybodies head in ( I am not aware of the Quran mentioning physical injury), rob banks-as there are no banks mentioned in the Quran. Do you get the point!
Sorry, but I think you need to read al-quraan thoroughly. If you say al-quraan doesn't mention physical injury, your reading has been somewhat limited.
Thats just about sums you up I think(see my example on schools)
No need to get personal. Why would I care about a messenger I never met up? Muhammad ,a messenger who was (as sunnis say) 'in full view of history' is secondly only to Jesus in being misrepresented by reports about him. My job is to care about my soul, not some guy i never met.
I'd like to ask you a question.
If Allah and his messenger gives you a rule, would you confer with people who didn't believe to get the go-ahead to implement it?
-
SaLaM
Al-quraan is al-furqaan, so there's a way of finding out if a messenger truly is so or not.
Its either God's way or the highway. NOT some tom dick or harry's way.
There's no mention of how to form a legislative body for the same reason there's no reason on how to form a wine distiilery either.
No no, ar-rasool once he is established is also 'malik' or king. He holds absolute power over the dominion, like David and Solomon did. He may confer with them if he so wishes, but the decision is his.
This is what happens when one argues to, and i quote, "vent frustrations, impress others and simply for verbal masturbation.
Like i said before you need to learn what the function of a legislative body are.
Indeed. The following God and following the Law are two different things. The laws of God and the laws of the society arent the same thing. Quran may speak of general saftey but to implement it in the law of the society is a completely different thing. Testing will need to be done. For example, sped limits. Its only after proper testing researchers found that 30 mph is the safest speed to be driving on a one way or single lane dual carriage way. The majority will accept and agree that 30 should be the speed limit. To say that the Quran would be against this decision is not only ridiculous but shows the lack of understanding of the word of God. With the notion of 'Quran is against majority decisions' people would be in a whole lot more trouble than they are right now.
Perhaps people should ACTUALLY understand the topic they are arguing on. Makes it less humiliating for them roll
-
stilllearning, i never thought of the excellent points you raised. On that note, have you read the Progressive Muslim's draft constitution? Even tho in my opinion some of the verse references used are just way off, it still advocates democracy.
Thank you.I have not yet but inshallah will soon. Presently very busy organising a bag charity event for the unfortunate victims of the earthquake
Salaam -
Salaam jaxal
On that note, have you read the Progressive Muslim's draft constitution
Aplogies I thought it was on this web site. I have not been able to find it. Web site address will be appreciated.
Regards -
Salam Jaxal
It is an intersting piece of work. Overall I think it is an excellent document. Like you I have my reservations about some of the refernces used. They require fair bit of imagination to tally them togather. By insisting a less than clear meaning references mean a specific point then you do leave yourself in a strait jacket and inhibit proper understanding and human development. I think we should not be afraid to admit that there are things in the Quran which we do not understand but I am sure as a human race developes in knowldge and spirituality then some of the ambiguous verses will become clearer. The Quran was not just for yesterday or today but forever and the ambiguities are deliberate in order for the mankind to get the best from its intellect and thinking in order to improve our overall being.
Regards -
SaLaM stillearning
Brother no one on this forum, or rather, no one on this PLANET understands the Quran completely. But anyone who reads the Quran without a pre determined judgment can see how God is advocating democracy. But implenting democracy and following Quran are just 2 different things. Like you said, we cannot establish laws JUST by looking at the Quran. Laws regarding running a country and Quran are just 2 different things. The only thing we can be sure of is that Quran is democratic. No questions about that. Even NOW, there isnt even ONE sensible argument against Quran being democratic. Its all personal opinion and personal interpretation.