Allah is a logical entity.
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Just because the Qur'an is the word of the God doesn't mean that it gives us the information we need to understand fully the Universe, Allah, or how Allah operates in the Universe. In my opinion, the parable that mquran pointed out does a good job of showing us how our perspectives-which are an indelible foundation for our logisitical reasoning skills-will not always lead us to the Truth. Unless you receive some sort of knowledge by Allah's leave, the Qur'an alone is still not sufficient enough to explain "the plan" from an objectively divine perspective. Even in the parable, the Servant only had more knowledge of the Reality by Allah's will. I mean, we really don't need to know the plan from an objectively divine perspective as our eternity is determined by our actions. The qur'an spells out our instructions clearly.
Sure, we can rationalize those things that we have knowledge of...our choices and behavior, for example. But to assume that Allah operates on a "logical" plane as we know it is it bit presumptious, in my opinion. Why does mankind always try to give the God human characteristics? I'll reread your post to see if I can better understand your perspective.
Peace.
I'm not saying the Qur'an provides all the answers. I'm saying the Qur'an is reasonable/logical/rational because it is permeable to rational thought, thus by extension so is Allah - the author of the Qur'an. In fact, no where do I mention anything about the Qur'an providing us with everything needed to understand reality.
Calling god a logical entity hardly reduces it or gives it a human characteristic. I fail to see why a logical god is a humanistic god. A piece of rock is perfectly logical, is that humanistic too? Being logical means being concise and self consistent, no more and no less. I don't know why everyone thinks logic is the ultimate demoter.
And honestly, saying that god is beyond logic is just an easy way to get around tricky theological issues and is ultimately useless (which I also outlined in my openning paragraph) because it leads to a very superficial understanding of the religion/god itself.
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Salaamun alaikum Salikah,
Just because the Qur'an is the word of the God doesn't mean that it gives us the information we need to understand fully the Universe, Allah, or how Allah operates in the Universe. In my opinion, the parable that mquran pointed out does a good job of showing us how our perspectives-which are an indelible foundation for our logisitical reasoning skills-will not always lead us to the Truth. Unless you receive some sort of knowledge by Allah's leave, the Qur'an alone is still not sufficient enough to explain "the plan" from an objectively divine perspective. Even in the parable, the Servant only had more knowledge of the Reality by Allah's will. I mean, we really don't need to know the plan from an objectively divine perspective as our eternity is determined by our actions. The qur'an spells out our instructions clearly.
Al-quraan tells us what we need to know to live in the world successfully, 'success' being defined in al-quraan itself (the word 'al-falah'). It maps the reality of our existence and shows us how to identify where we are and how to get to where we want to be.
No, it's definitely not a book of science but it does tell us how to approach the khalq(evolvement, not a word I know but it captures the essence of the meanng) of Allah. That's what matters. Humankind will always have new information (even information or 'ilm' is properly defined) but thier essence will never change. It is this essence which makes up the contents of Al-Quraan.
I would like to see Al-Quraan be transposed into the realm of philosophy. Then we'll see what it means to 'produce a sura like it'!
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Ok, so rephrase you If one believes in al-quraan, one must therefore believe that Allah is a logical entity.
Would you mind showing me the steps towards this deduction please?
This is what my first post does.
Hmm, I'm sorry but can you help me out here, I am unschooled in formal logic and philosophy
Why is it an absurdity again?
An absurdity is a logical fallacy/inconsistency/contradiction.
As far as I can see , you just constructed two statements which oppose one another. I might well ask 'why can't something come from nothing' ? The truth of the initial statement depends on empirical observation, doesn't it?
And yes, I made two statements that are the polar opposite of each other which form a logical disjunction (meaning only one can be true, not both); so when you disprove one, the other becomes true by default.
Something cannot come from nothing because 'nothing' has no attributes at all, including the attribute 'to exude something'; therefore it's logical fallacy to claim that 'something' can come from 'nothing'. Hence 'something cannot come from nothing' is an objective statement.
Im afraid the analogy of 2+2=5 doesn't work because '2', '5' '=' and '+' are linguistic definitions. The proof that Allah exists logically depends on a
whole lot more.-
I'm not here to prove Allah
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These are definitions that pertain to reality. Just because they are symbolic does not mean they contain less truth
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They may be 'simple' statements but the underline an obvious reality and that is logic is universal; I could have given you a very complex calculus function but there would be no point because 2+2 is enough
Yes, that I agree. So we cannot prove the existence of Allah throught al-quraan. I believe in Allah first and through my analysis of al-quraan, I believe it was taught by Allah. It's not the other way round, Im afraid.
It doesn't have to be around in any which way. If the Qur'an is permeable to reasonned thinking then so must be its author; irrespective of how different people come to find their faith.
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Ok Neo, I take your point. However, to come to believe in al-quraan, we don't depend on al-quraan by itself. Please see 41/53. We come to believe in al-haqq through observation of outer and inner signs. Allah Himself is al-haqq.
peace.
Exactly - the Qur'an is externally verifiable (as in it can be tested against reality and demonstrated to be reasonable).
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A tree
http//www.bakerlite.co.uk/pics/Wales/South%20Wales/tree.jpgA simple equation
http//www.ealnet.com/ealsoft/tree1.gifA vegetable from the Cauliflower family
http//mkeadle.org/uploads/0101_028.jpgA simple equation
http//www.cs.wisc.edu/~ergreen/honors_thesis/gifs/sierpinski.gifA snowflake
http//www.math.ntnu.no/~hjelle/skole/fraktal/koch_sierpinski.pngAnd all though our attempts at understanding this great work is comparing a fart to a 100 man brassband. There is no doubt that God is logical.
8818 Will they not look at the camels, how are they created?
8819 And to the sky, how is it raised?
8820 And to the mountains, how was it set?
8821 And to the land, how was it flattened? -
Peace be upon you Mel Funktion,
Enjoying your posts, welcome.
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Peace be upon you Mel Funktion,
Enjoying your posts, welcome.
Peace be upon you too Idolfree, and thank you.
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A tree
http//www.bakerlite.co.uk/pics/Wales/South%20Wales/tree.jpgA simple equation
http//www.ealnet.com/ealsoft/tree1.gifA vegetable from the Cauliflower family
http//mkeadle.org/uploads/0101_028.jpgA simple equation
http//www.cs.wisc.edu/~ergreen/honors_thesis/gifs/sierpinski.gifA snowflake
http//www.math.ntnu.no/~hjelle/skole/fraktal/koch_sierpinski.pngAnd all though our attempts at understanding this great work is comparing a fart to a 100 man brassband. There is no doubt that God is logical.
8818 Will they not look at the camels, how are they created?
8819 And to the sky, how is it raised?
8820 And to the mountains, how was it set?
8821 And to the land, how was it flattened?Yes...fractals and chaos theory...point being?
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Yes...fractals and chaos theory...point being?
pretty obvious actually
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Yes...fractals and chaos theory...point being?
pretty obvious actually
roll
Yes, a picture of a tree is so very pertinent. If you're trying to show that logic can be derived from complex systems which seem chaotic - well done, I totally didn't know that. If you're trying to show that the chaotic world features an undercurrent of logic that can only imply a creator - congratulations 'cause it's a very unique insight which no one prior to you has thought up before. And your last line about god being 'complex but logical' is quite redundent, especially because I mentioned it twice in my post. So really, what's your point?
Seriously, if you've got something to say just say it - but don't post these little "nuggets of wisdom"; they're quite annoying and serve to prove nothing except that you can use google image.
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Yes...fractals and chaos theory...point being?
pretty obvious actually
roll
Yes, a picture of a tree is so very pertinent. If you're trying to show that logic can be derived from complex systems which seem chaotic - well done, I totally didn't know that. If you're trying to show that the chaotic world features an undercurrent of logic that can only imply a creator - congratulations 'cause it's a very unique insight which no one prior to you has thought up before. And your last line about god being 'complex but logical' is quite redundent, especially because I mentioned it twice in my post. So really, what's your point?
Seriously, if you've got something to say just say it - but don't post these little "nuggets of wisdom"; they're quite annoying and serve to prove nothing except that you can use google image.
Who died and made you God ? Idolfree liked this little "nugget of wisdom" . If you dont get it, or understand it's implications, that would be YOU'R problem! I will use my God given right to express myself freely, Capich
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Chill guys... lol
Neo let him post his pics...He was trying to drive a visual point home, it works for some wink
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Who died and made you God ? Idolfree liked this little "nugget of wisdom" . If you dont get it, or understand it's implications, that would be YOU'R problem! I will use my God given right to express myself freely, Capich??
Lol. Since I don't understand and/or get these extremely thought provoking implications you were making with your tree - would you care to enlighten an average Joe so he too can revel in this new found 'apple'?
By 'apple' I am of course referring to the tree of knowledge. Here is an apple
http//www.nada.kth.se/~snilsson/public/resources/apple.jpg
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Who died and made you God ? Idolfree liked this little "nugget of wisdom" . If you dont get it, or understand it's implications, that would be YOU'R problem! I will use my God given right to express myself freely, Capich??
Lol. Since I don't understand and/or get these extremely thought provoking implications you were making with your tree - would you care to enlighten an average Joe so he too can revel in this new found 'apple'?
By 'apple' I am of course referring to the tree of knowledge. Here is an apple
http//www.nada.kth.se/~snilsson/public/resources/apple.jpg
Yeah, you have the wrong apple. Here is the tree of knowledge/life
http//www.serendipity.li/dmt/life1.jpg
It's "apples" look's more like this
http//www.treesforlife.org.uk/images/Amanita_muscaria.jpg
But as i said, if you dont get it. you dont get it. That would just imply that you have a less visual intelligence, but properbly a more wordbased one then. Carrot is right, to some visualising a point works better than 4 million words. You are not such aperson. dont be sad about it. Not everyone is.
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All this over a simple exchange of can you explain what the pics mean?!?! lol On the plus side, the colours really liven up the forum...
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Seriously, why are you so reluctant to explain? Is it because you have absolutely nothing to say? I can only take your reluctance to explain as a sign of "I have no idea what I'm talking about I just wanted to show people I did 12th grade maths". Would that be far from the truth? Probably not.
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Seriously, why are you so reluctant to explain? Is it because you have absolutely nothing to say? I can only take your reluctance to explain as a sign of "I have no idea what I'm talking about I just wanted to show people I did 12th grade maths". Would that be far from the truth? Probably not.
You are free to form your own oppinion as is everyone )
Next time you ask somthing of me. be sure not to start out by being snide, that will really boost your chances of getting a sensible answer.
Carrot
All this over a simple exchange of can you explain what the pics mean?!?!
But ofcouse i will sister. Everything we experience (through vision) is made up by primitives. A primitive is a very basic shape, that can be explained through math, quite easily, like the sierpinski fractal (the triangles). We can observe to some degree how these primitives repeat themself. On the micro, and the macro scale of the universe. There are several such levels, if you are unfamiliar with the principle i will explain.
A fairly modern thesis put forth, is that planets/and solar systems resembles atoms. I dont know, but it's an interresting thought.
So when we look at a tree, what do we see? an endless complex creation, or a mathematical equation with so many variables that one can only be in total awe over someone who could design it like that, and with as many variables to the object itself. Our take on designing a tree through primitives, looks nothing like it. We can see that they resemble eachother, but are nothing like eachother.
But what we can learn through these exercises is that the universe is a machinery, a clockwork, matrix. nothing but code. But it is the most incredible code ever. Forget 1's and 0's, this stuff is complex. It would seem that the bits of the universe is capable of being present 2 places at the same time. That alone brings some very interresting perspectives, as this means the universe can operate with bits that can be turned on, yet turned off at the same time, to use a lame computer terminology.
I know that idolfree knew what i was "talking about" instantly. Alltho the above is but part of the whole explanation. You guy's didnt get it, and there is nothing wrong with this. We communicate differently.
And there are no such thing as chaos. Chaos is merely our expression of order that have such a long variable loop time that it appear chaotic. Quantum thinkers are more and more agreeing to this. With the introduction of M theory, they jumped the "order is everything" bandwagon. But M theory is not A theory, but has become a whole school of thought. One that i appreaciate mind you.
Questions?
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Next time you ask somthing of me. be sure not to start out by being snide, that will really boost your chances of getting a sensible answer.
H. Ey Let's. Put periods. At. Random places.
Okay seriously though, asking you the point of a bunch of pictures is "snide"? Lol, I'm sorry I troubled you in your sensitive time of the month.
reading the rest
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Next time you ask somthing of me. be sure not to start out by being snide, that will really boost your chances of getting a sensible answer.
H. Ey Let's. Put periods. At. Random places.
Okay seriously though, asking you the point of a bunch of pictures is "snide"? Lol, I'm sorry I troubled you in your sensitive time of the month.
reading the rest
whatever dawg, there are many way's to ask a question. you understood the meaning right?