How was adam sent to earth?
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Peace be upon you,
When you take the stories literaly, then they lose importance. When you take them for the underlying guidance of our own BEINGS, then ALL OF IT is meaningful.
What is more important than knowing how your being works and what causes us all to "fall"?
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Peace again Pazuzu,
May I say, I think you have a penchant for linguistics after reading your posts Hope you will share much more with us as time goes by.
In time, brother...In time...
(Keep a lookout for a thread I'm posting soon in the Archaeology section )
How do you differentiate between muhkamat and mutashabihaat ? Is there a particular criteria ?
That the verses of the Reading are classified into two categories "Muhkam" and "Mutashabih" can't be denied. The Reading itself states that. As to what criteria is used to differentiate, I think the only way to find out is simply to read. This is just another one of those instances where examples serve as the best explanation, and tend to speak for themselves.
The criteria itself is often disputed. Anyway, this is how I see it.The "Muhkamat" are ususally the verses that deal with the System. They are the verses that we, as submitters, need to understand and apply in our daily lives to gain God's favor and live a happy life ( and afterlife ).
Anything dealing with the concept of true, idol-free submission, laws of behavior, honesty, modesty, the prohibitions of certain foods, the ten commandmants, almsgiving, marriage, divorce, etc... is considered as "muhkam". Such verses do not require interpretation. They are understood LITERALLYThe "Mutashabih" are verses that can have different interpretations depending on the age we live in, and what scientific knowledge we have.
Some people accept them literally, some don't. It's a matter of opinion.
Examples abound but now is not the time ( nor is this the thread ) for such matters.
Some examples include Judgement Day, heaven, hell, angels, stories of past nations, the "miracles" (signs) of the prophets, etc...I hope you can see the difference.
I may be wrong, but this is how I see them. Your ideas are welcome. -
SaLaM Pazuzu
I agree that there are verses with both literall and allagorical meanings. But here is the thing. God says the scripture is clear. So why not just say is as it really is? For example
1] there is only one God and none like Him - Is literal
2] Like two snow flakes are not alike, such is god (probably a crappy example looolll ) - Allagorical, still the literal is much more easier and clear.
This is how i see it.
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Peace be upon you,
I cannot see how you are limiting the word "ayat" to verses?
Please elaborate
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
Feel free to jump in, I didnt really focus that question to a particular person, just to the idea that ayat is being taken as "verse" rather than "sign".
Keep in mind that I take Al Kitaab as "univeral law", not a physical book.
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SaLaM Idolfree
I will jump in then since you asked me to politely D . When i say verse, i am talking about the verse in the surah like (Surah 2 , Verse number 2). I know what Ayat = miracle/sign. I believe the whole Quran is a miracle. But when i say verse, i just mean the surah.verse number. Yea its kinda boring isnt it? loooooooool
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
Feel free to jump in, I didnt really focus that question to a particular person, just to the idea that ayat is being taken as "verse" rather than "sign".
Keep in mind that I take Al Kitaab as "univeral law", not a physical book.
Peace
do you think the universal law should be documented in a book for the people to refer to, or do you expect that they will memorise over 6000 verses of divine laws?
cheers
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1 ) Jaxal
The very subject of this thread "How was Adam sent to Earth" falls under the category of "Mutashabih". I'm not denying the fact that the verses are clear Arabic. The entire reading is clear Arabic.
But just think How many opinions did we get on this subject?
I can revise the whole thread and see no less than 8 opinions about the subject. Doesn't that tell you anything?On the other hand, if I were to read the following verse
And do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and a bad path. {423}
or,
Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend." {6153}
How many different explanations do you think people will have for it?
Are you getting this so far? It's verses like this last one that we must pay attention to and study, because our salvation depends on it.
God isn't gonna send us to Hell if we don't know what the "Jinn" are.
But he will certainly send us to Hell if we kill someone in a case other than justice or self defence.- idolfree1
I cannot see how you are limiting the word "ayat" to verses?
Please elaborate
The word "ayat" has one general meaning in the Reading Signs.
The verses themselves are signs if you think about it. When "Mutashabih" and "Muhkam" are mentioned, one will probably think of the "revealed verses of the Reading " , because God refers to the "Muhkamat" as "The essence of the scripture". ( Ommou'lkitab ) This is why it's acceptable to think of the word "ayat" in as verses.
This doesn't mean that I'm limiting the meaning of the word to verses. It all depends on the context, brother.
But remember The verses themselves are signs.
So is the camel and how it stores food..
So is the sea that enables travel...
So is the wind and how it carries seeds...
So are the male and female that complete each other...All these are "ayat" )
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SaLam Pazuzu
I DO agree that this topic is quite elusive. Even my own belief on this matter is conflicting. I want to believe Adam was sent down as a whole being. Then i also believe that carbon came on earth through a meteorite. Maybe that carbon was 'adam' since all life started from that one meteorite carrying carbon. Its a mess i tell you. flag
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Salaamun alaikum Pazuzu,
Ah, thanks for your expose on the muhkam/mutashabih duality.
That the verses of the Reading are classified into two categories "Muhkam" and "Mutashabih" can't be denied. The Reading itself states that. As to what criteria is used to differentiate, I think the only way to find out is simply to read. This is just another one of those instances where examples serve as the best explanation, and tend to speak for themselves.
The criteria itself is often disputed. Anyway, this is how I see it.Ok, but do notice that 3/7 refers to al-kitaab, not al-quraan. What's your understanding of al-kitaab, please?
The "Muhkamat" are ususally the verses that deal with the System. They are the verses that we, as submitters, need to understand and apply in our daily lives to gain God's favor and live a happy life ( and afterlife ).
Anything dealing with the concept of true, idol-free submission, laws of behavior, honesty, modesty, the prohibitions of certain foods, the ten commandmants, almsgiving, marriage, divorce, etc... is considered as "muhkam". Such verses do not require interpretation. They are understood LITERALLYI see, ok. I understand where you're coming from but we're told to judge by al-kitaab bil haqq (4/105, 5/48 ). So yes, the judgement made with 'legal' issues (like divorce) isn't the same as say the judgement made for 'social' issues (like is modern society an Aad-like society) but both are judgements made with al-kitaab bil haqq.
I guess what i'm trying to say is, al-quraan has no distinction between legal and social dimensions of life. Both require hukm.
The "Mutashabih" are verses that can have different interpretations depending on the age we live in, and what scientific knowledge we have.
Some people accept them literally, some don't. It's a matter of opinion.
Examples abound but now is not the time ( nor is this the thread ) for such matters.
Some examples include Judgement Day, heaven, hell, angels, stories of past nations, the "miracles" (signs) of the prophets, etc...I hope you can see the difference.
I may be wrong, but this is how I see them. Your ideas are welcome.Aha, I see. Do you think when 2 generations interpret verses like these (say when generations a and b interpret kitaabu Adam), they have one underlying common ground to the story? I.e, the essence of the story which doesn't change from generation to generation? Or will they interpret the story in a completely different way?
many thanks for the fine discussion I may not agree with you but I do appreciate the stimulus of thought.
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mquran
I would like you to consider the following verse
We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Scripture and the balance, that the people may uphold justice. And We sent down the iron, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people. So that God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers on faith. God is Powerful, Noble. {5725}
Note the part in italics.
My question to you is this How do you think a person living in the 7th Century A.D could have understood this sentence
....And We sent down the iron, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people.
How could Abou Bakr, or Ali, or Uthman, or even the Prophet himself have understood this sentence, based on what the scientific knowledge was during that period?
Note that God is telling us here about iron as one of the metals that is made available to man. This is the iron that is mined from the Earth ( in solid form of ferrous compounds ) and used to make tools that benefit mankind.
Where did this iron come from???
To a believer living in the 7th Century, iron was brought down to Earth by God, PERIOD. There is no way that they could have interpreted the verse otherwise. There was no way they could have known exactly how it was "sent down".What does 20th century science tell us???
The iron that exists in the core of the Earth exists in a molten state ( liquid ). This iron is useless to us because
a) it is too deep to be mined
b) it's in molten state and therefore useless for making tools and weapons.
c) the amount of pressure required to condense molten iron into a solid state is so enourmous that the entire mass of the planet is not enough to achieve this!Again the question Where did the solid iron found in the Earth's crust come from???
Modern science has one very interesting theory
Millions of years ago, while the earth was being formed, it was bombarded by thousands of meteors from outer space. These meteors were very rich in solid ferrous material. Over a period of thousands of years, these meteors embedded themselves in the Earth's crust and gradually constituted the Earth's solid iron reserves.
Did The Prophet or his companions know this?
It took mankind 1400 years to finally interpret the true meaning of this verse. And this interpretation is based on a 20th century theory. Maybe, in a hundred years time, another theory about the origin of solid iron will emerge and refute the current one.
We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things? {4153}
"It is but a reminder for the worlds."
"And you will come to know its news after awhile." {3886,87}
Ok, but do notice that 3/7 refers to al-kitaab, not al-quraan. What's your understanding of al-kitaab, please?
I'm not one to differentiate between Kitab and Quran. At least I don't see that the differentiation is necessary. To me the "kitab" is the God's book.
Since this kitab was revealed to a messenger in a language - recited form - and is to be read (Iqra?a ) to the people, it's therefore called Quran ( Reading ). Simple as that.Peace
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Thanks brother Pazuzu
I agree with what you said 100%
Peace
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Peace Pazuzu,
Excellent post.
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Brilliant post pazuzu.
I have been wondering about the same thing. I buy into you'r theory, because it seems plausible to me.
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
I will jump in then since you asked me to politely . When i say verse, i am talking about the verse in the surah like (Surah 2 , Verse number 2). I know what Ayat = miracle/sign. I believe the whole Quran is a miracle. But when i say verse, i just mean the surah.verse number. Yea its kinda boring isnt it? loooooooool
You answered the wrong question, I asked about teh word "ayat", not "verse". D
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
do you think the universal law should be documented in a book for the people to refer to, or do you expect that they will memorise over 6000 verses of divine laws?
No, we are taught by prophets and messengers to witness and discover the divine laws for ourselves.
(4153) We will show them Our signs in the horizons and in their spirits/minds, until (it) becomes clear/explained for them that it (is) the truth . Is (it) not enough/sufficient with your Lord, that He truly is on every thing witnessing/testifying?
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Peace be upon you Pazuzu,
The word "ayat" has one general meaning in the Reading Signs.
The verses themselves are signs if you think about it. When "Mutashabih" and "Muhkam" are mentioned, one will probably think of the "revealed verses of the Reading " , because God refers to the "Muhkamat" as "The essence of the scripture". ( Ommou'lkitab ) This is why it's acceptable to think of the word "ayat" in as verses.
Yes, I agree, but the next step is to get the proper understanding of wha the God is speaking of with the word "kitaab". Here's a hint "Uni VERSE" D
The word "ayat" has one general meaning in the Reading Signs.
"we will show them the signs from the horizons to within thier spirits/minds..."
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Peace eb upon you Pazazu,
Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend." {6153}
How many different explanations do you think people will have for it?
"...and do not kill the nafs"
I guess you have missed the threads discussing that issue
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"...and do not kill the nafs"
I guess you have missed the threads discussing that issue
I'm sorry...I just don't get it.. ??