Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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The Constitution itself is DECIDED BY THE PEOPLE in a DEMOCRACY. And just as constitution can be made so it can be unmade this is contrary to the DIVINE LAW which is immutable for all time...
How about reading the rest of what i wrote. Heard of the phrase taken out of context!
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The Constitution itself is DECIDED BY THE PEOPLE in a DEMOCRACY. And just as constitution can be made so it can be unmade this is contrary to the DIVINE LAW which is immutable for all time...
How about reading the rest of what i wrote. Heard of the phrase taken out of context!
Above is the crux of the matter....rest of your post is extraneous words...
For example - Quran proscribes lashings for adultery. You can't delegislate this DIVINE LAW. But in DEMOCRACY you can...
Regards,
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As I have stated previousouly that you cannot force a society to follow the Quran if it does not wish to do so. There is no compulsion in religion.
Above is what I also wrote. If people wish to choose a system which will follow the guidance given by the Quran and implement 100 lashes as advocated that is their choice, it is known as democracy. If on the other hand they decide thay do not wish to follow that path and select a system which does not advocate the above punishment they are free to do so, as there is no compulsion. This is also known as democracy.
In democracy you are given choices, sometimes very limited, and you are free to choose. The Quran gives you that choice you can either accept it and be a muslim or you are free to reject it.
Regards -
SaLaM LT
For example - Quran proscribes lashings for adultery. You can't delegislate this DIVINE LAW. But in DEMOCRACY you can
If you were a christian, and you cheated on your husband how would you feel if i lashed you becoz it is in the Quran? Quran advocates democracy. That is it. It doesnt lay down the rules and laws and regulations for a country to take on. Quran is not a book of laws and regulations. Its a book of guidence. Or do you thik Saudi is a country according to Quran? Or how about Iran? You agree with the way they run their country?
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SaLaM LT
For example - Quran proscribes lashings for adultery. You can't delegislate this DIVINE LAW. But in DEMOCRACY you can
Quran advocates democracy.
How can it? Democracy means people making the laws this will go against the IMMUATABLE DIVINE LAW...therefore why would quran advacate democracy when democracy will UNDERMINE the DIVINE law... it does not make sense....
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum Still-learning,
I must admit that is definition of democracy i have not come across before. Messanger brought you the Quran you can follow it according to your understanding, why do you have to confer with anybody if you do not wish to do so. You do not have to confer with anybody about being a honest, generous, compassionate person.
I'm not saying you should confer at all. Democracy however requires you to do so. To me, the messenger says and I obey , I have no qualms in the matter (33/36).
The messenger tells us more things than being an honest, genernous and compassionate person though. He tells us to stand up for those who are oppressed (4/75) but in a democracy, we may not be allowed to do so.
This is what im getting at, you see. Is it ok to disobey the messenger if the polity which you live in says 'no, we vote you down'
Please do not confuse moral guidance with specific rules needed to govern a society, country state etc.
I will state the very obvious again A state, society etc requires thousands, if not millions of rule, to function. These rules are formulated and implemented by some form of a governing system. These sytems to date have include monarchy, military dictatorship, so called communist system, democracy and others. The Quran clearly states you are given intelligence do not accept anything which yo cannot verify for yourself. Which system your intelligence tells you is appropriate is a decision for yourself-do not try to find it in the Quran because it simply does not exist.Sorry brother, but al-quraan never calls itself a 'moral guidance'. The word 'moral' (Arabic akhlaaq) does not exist in al-quraan. Al-quraan rather speaks of taqwaa, mindfulness of Allah and His laws.
I am surprised that you limit al-quraan to moral guidance. Al-quraan clearly gives laws for given situations
- public acts of debauchery (24/2)
- sedition and mischief (5/33)
- stealing (5/38 )
- murder (2/17
This is not 'moral guidance' in the normative sense. These are clear hard and fast rules.
As I have stated previousouly that you cannot force a society to follow the Quran if it does not wish to do so. There is no compulsion in religion.
So a person can, in an islamic domain, commit murder and say 'well, where i come from, we just jail murderers for 10 years and thats my deen and u cant force islam on me'. How would you respond to this guy?
Being for or against the death penalty neither makes you for or against democracy.
Per se, you' right.
I am afraid it is another of your points which I fail to understand. I do not know of any Quranic, non Quranic anti Quranic society where murder of another person is condoned. Your example is the exact reason why we need system to enable justice to prevail. You cannot excuse a crime just because individual claims to have specific belief can you imagine the chaos in a planet of 6 billion people.
No, murder isn't condoned, you're right. The problem is, instead of the ahl (people connected to) of the victims having the right of punishment, it is the democracy which ultimately decides on the punishment. Politicians who are hungry for votes will follow the majority's whims and therefore limit the right of the victim's ahl.
If someone killed my brother and is convicted, its not I who has the right to decide his fate but a person not connected to him at all. THis is unquranic but currently its going on due to a democracy.
And you agree that, just because an individual says that 'i dont believe murder is wrong', this doesn't excuse him. Well, isn't this compulsion then? Are you not forcing the guy to accept your values by forcing him to accept your punishment for murder?
Well i have not signed any social contract or any one else that I know has in relation to obeying specific laws. All I know is that I get my chance every few years to participate in choosing a goverment which will hopefully form rules and regulation which will be hopefully will be predisposed to my way of thinking. Compared to any other form of governing system it is probably the best system that allows me to practice Islam the way I understand it. Without freedom of mind you cannot have Islam and the best system which allows the most freedom is democracy. If a better system arises the I will gladly change my views.
I dont understand your messenger system at all.You did not give an answer when the last messenger was. According to my understnadin it was over 1400 years ago- that is lot of generation who will need rules and laws cannot have choas waiting for your system to come into being.You sign it by being born in a western society. They signed it for you. I agree that you can participate in choosing a government, but to hope that they will be predisposed to your way of thinking is futile. The messengers of god never went around trying to win votes. What they did was, established the system as much as they possibly could and left the rest to Allah. No democratic process was inolved.
I don't believe in last messengers. I believe a messenger is one under inspiration who practises the book, gives information about the book and faciliates growth. He's also the leader of the believers.
many thanks for this stimulating discussion.
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Salaam mquran
Please be patient. I will probably not be able to respond for another week. Time is very limited at present.
Salaam -
SaLaM LT
How can it?
This is what happens when you dont read the previous replies wink . So far neither you or mquran or anyone for that matter has not been able to prove that Quran is anti democratic except a few excuses here and a few excuses there. Once again, if you are against democracy, live in saudi or iran for a month or two to see what an anti democratic country is like and tell me if you think Quran is anti democratic wink
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Salaam Stillearning,
Please be patient. I will probably not be able to respond for another week. Time is very limited at present
That's no problem at all. The fact that you're actually able to understand what a discussion is (i.e. an exchange of information relevant to the said point as opposed to a cheerleading contest for people who never open the text) is blessing enough. Take all the time you need and I look forward to a nice civilised discussion. You have given me much food for thought.
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SaLaM LT
How can it?
This is what happens when you dont read the previous replies
No chap. I think you don't just get it do you? DIVINE LAW - immutable. Human laws changeable.
Regards,
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Democracy is living just today's life at any cost. In the bargain the democracy becomes a mockery that we witness from time immemorial.
Agreed. Democracy today is merely a slogan to win over the masses. We need to analyse the mechanics of the acquisition of power to understand why. A good look at the current leading contender for the British Conservative Party will help us see the chameleonic nature which democracy demands us to adopt if we're to acquire power. I ask the Tories How much can you change before you stop being a tory?
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SaLaM LT
No chap. I think you don't just get it do you? DIVINE LAW - immutable. Human laws changeable.
So you agree with the way things are being run in Saudi and iran? Or how about this, old chap, why dont you name a country that is running according to Quran?
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SaLaM LT
No chap. I think you don't just get it do you? DIVINE LAW - immutable. Human laws changeable.
So you agree with the way things are being run in Saudi and iran? Or how about this, old chap, why dont you name a country that is running according to Quran?
Jaxal, the crux of the matter is this DIVINE LAW IMMUTABLE. HUMAN LAWS CHANGEABLE. Do you not get this? The rest of your argument is just extraneous words...
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
No one is arguing about changing the word of God. I mean, All the scriptures, Torah, Gospel and Quran, have been changed or altered to some degree. But, The Quran is a book of guidence. Not a 'Dummy 101 how to run a country'. The state and religion should be kept apart. If not, then the result is Saudi or Iran or afghanistan or pakistan.
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SaLaM LT
No one is arguing about changing the word of God. I mean, All the scriptures, Torah, Gospel and Quran, have been changed or altered to some degree. But, The Quran is a book of guidence. Not a 'Dummy 101 how to run a country'. The state and religion should be kept apart. If not, then the result is Saudi or Iran or afghanistan or pakistan.
So you are saying IMMUTABLE DEVINE LAW can be ignored and therefore it is irrelvant? And we can get on with DEMOCRACY?
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
Oh LT. You are smarter than that you know? Again, if you read the previous replies you would have seen that i look at the Quran for the moral code, example no innocent killing or no interest rates . I i asked you to run a country, will you look at the Quran?
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SaLaM LT
Oh LT. You are smarter than that you know? Again, if you read the previous replies you would have seen that i look at the Quran for the moral code, example no innocent killing or no interest rates . I i asked you to run a country, will you look at the Quran?
Answer the question please instead of extraneous words wink
Regards,
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I did. read carefully wink
You can't CHANGE DIVINE IMMUATABLE LAWS, therefore my argument quran is anti-democractic.... but in your case you can just ignore the DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law wink
Regards,