RULES:
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hi mquran,
Do you work for a living? Do you pay your taxes? Do you WANT to pay your taxes? We all live under a body of laws which govern us in the modern nation state. This is the Quranic definition of what a 'slave' is.
taxes that one pays benefits them only. do u imply we should live in complete isolation without a society? and if its an yes, to society, u need taxes to pay for comforts that u have no time to create for urself, such as water, electricity, safety, cleaniness etc..
slavery is nothing like what we are today. Thanks to Allah, we are in better conditions.
and, did the previous sriptures that came before Quran have rules as well? and if yes, are they the same as mentioned in Quran?
if No, does that mean the rules were made appropriate for the period (and the state of affairs), when it was being given?There's no such thing as a 'previous scripture' (alkitaab min qabli) in quranic thought.
arent the torah, gospel etc previous scriptures?
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hi nabi,
If it is the final guidance I do not think there need to be a thought of new rules for this age. I'm not sure if the rules would change. There were different ages with different rusul/envoys, but they basically recieved the same rules unless otherwise stated. The basic call of these rusul was "O my people, serve God, you have no other god but him and do not exceed bounds or make mischief in the land". In my opinion the greatest fault of the people was at the heart of each admonition.
i agree with u on the basic principles of Quran and the previous scriptures. all of them i suppose had these- one God, righteousness, goodness etc.infact i think most of it stands good for all times like salaat, fasting, pilgrimage etc
my question is the specific rules, such as
chopping hand vs imprisonment for stealing? both are punishments for the crime and we are thus not propagating the wrong.
again, poly gamy? wasnt it specific?
and should the punishment for adultery be242 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
mind u, am not saying adultery is right. all i am asking is, is this punishment not more suitable for that era than now?
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Salaamun alaikum,
Elenathis seems to me another excuse to not pay taxes more imaginative than the rest of excuses I have heard, yes
I pay my taxes because believers are enjoined to fulfil thier contracts and the social contract in this polity obligates me to pay them. But I dont have to like it D
Do you equate living under a body of laws with being slaves?
I intuit that you have an attached preconception to this word slave. I will use the quranic word 'abd'. In al-quraan, an 'abd' is one who follows the laws of his rabb/lord. That therefore becomes his 'deen'. So while my deen is currently islam, its islam + western secularism. I have not achieved the status of ibrahim whose deen was purely to Allah.
Lote But human beings always needs a set of rules (either divinely imposed) or created by the ourselves to manage the way we live our lives in a society...
Agreed.
Elena but, what does your research consist on? I mean, you said in "The progress" thread
It consists of checking the contents of the texts, relevant words and the linguistics.
have you already finished the verification part of the study?
41/53, if you read it, talks about the truthfulness of al-quraan. That being the case, yes I have finished with the verification. I'm satisfied that the book is from Allah. This in no way ends my study of its APPLICATION. I hope you see the distinction between the 2. One is verify its truthfulness and the other to verify its application
It seems you did since you say "if it comes to that, it comes to that" When that happened? I thought it was being parallel with the study of the book in terms of Arabic, grammar, verification from inside the book taken the way the words are used in it, etc
Yes, that's exactly what I did. However, the book is a finite text. My information at this time tells me that yes, it means that. Of course if someone else comes up and says 'what about that verse', I will have to rethink. So far, that's not been the case.
PM taxes that one pays benefits them only. do u imply we should live in complete isolation without a society? and if its an yes, to society, u need taxes to pay for comforts that u have no time to create for urself, such as water, electricity, safety, cleaniness etc..
Sorry but you're missing my point here. My point is, the quranic definition of a slave is one who obeys the laws of thier lord. I am a slave to the system while also being a slave to Allah (provided I fulfil those conditions). Im not questioning if the present taxation system is good or otherwise. Thats besides the point. However, for you to say it 'benefits them only' is false. I was paying the money for the protection of the mad mullas which I would never do on my own volition.
slavery is nothing like what we are today. Thanks to Allah, we are in better conditions.
Better in whose perspective ? We need to get the Quranic perspective here. We may be better materialistically but morally ? The system uses our taxation money to wage wars abroad. Is this beyond our concern just because we have broadband and cable tv? It shouldn't be because we would then be judging by other than what Allah has revealed. A good butt kicking from Allah happens for people who do that. Thats natural law.
arent the torah, gospel etc previous scriptures?
Not if you use al-quraan to set the criteria. Unfortunately, many people are afraid to do this because it then shakes thier foundation of the 'tri-religious' myth.
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Peace mquran,
I intuit that you have an attached preconception to this word slave. I will use the quranic word 'abd'. In al-quraan, an 'abd' is one who follows the laws of his rabb/lord.
that is unfair because peacefulmuslim was talking --I think, about 'slave' as the person who is owned by another person, like in 492 ..."And whoever kills a believer by accident, then he shall set free a believing slave?? not as 'slave' with the meaning of servant of God.
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Peace Elena,
that is unfair because peacefulmuslim was talking --I think, about 'slave' as the person who is owned by another person, like in 492 ..."And whoever kills a believer by accident, then he shall set free a believing slave?? not as 'slave' with the meaning of servant of God.
Sorry, I dont understand why its 'unfair' ? All im saying is, slavery in a quranic sense will always exist. 4/92 doesn't use the word 'abd', by the way.
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Hi mquran,
can u explain what u think Allah meant by slaves in that verse?
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hi mquran,
Better in whose perspective ? We need to get the Quranic perspective here. We may be better materialistically but morally ? The system uses our taxation money to wage wars abroad. Is this beyond our concern just because we have broadband and cable tv? It shouldn't be because we would then be judging by other than what Allah has revealed. A good butt kicking from Allah happens for people who do that. Thats natural law.
its quite surprising to know that someone believes that our living conditions are no better than people of 570 AD. and that we are equal to the slaves of that period .
Not if you use al-quraan to set the criteria. Unfortunately, many people are afraid to do this because it then shakes thier foundation of the 'tri-religious' myth.
o.k. do u believe the torah, gospel etc were guidance/messages from God?
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Peace mquran
Sorry, I dont understand why its 'unfair' ?
it is unfair that you say I have attached preconception about the word when the meaning from the beginning was slave = a person who is owned by another person.
4/92 doesn't use the word 'abd', by the way.
good to know that the reading uses two different words for those two different meanings. Then, why did you start talking about abd-servant when the topic was slave person who is owned by another person?All im saying is, slavery in a quranic sense will always exist.
what slavery? person who is owned by another person or servant of God?
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hi mquran,
Can you please define what you mean by 'suitable'. What makes something more 'suitable'?
by suitable, i mean appropriate to the present state of affairs and living conditions.
for eg, the punishment for stealing- i would think imprisionment is appropriate rather than chopping the hand.
propably people of that period needed such rules as they did not have much concepts of right and wrong. would the same severity be required now? -
Peace,
i think most of it stands good for all times
I'm not sure why the punishments and rules of society should not stand for all time.
chopping hand vs imprisonment for stealing?
Which standard are you talking about? Is this the standard of the society in which you live, imprisonment for stealing? As MQ said, the punishment is not the physical chopping off of one's hands rather cutting their power or means. The punishment should fit the crime.
again, poly gamy? wasnt it specific?
Yes alquran does have specific instances under which polygamy may come into play. You may not like it, I do not necessarily like the idea . Monagomy is what is basically promoted.
and should the punishment for adultery be
100 lashes. You must not let pity detain you from obedience to Allah.
mind u, am not saying adultery is right. all i am asking is, is this punishment not more suitable for that era than now?
Could you explain why this punishment may be less suitable?
Joe
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Peace,
propably people of that period needed such rules as they did not have much concepts of right and wrong.
Are you saying the moral conceptions of men a few milennia ago were not on par with our own today? That our morals have evolved from a more primitive morality?
Joe
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Salaamun alaikum Elena and PM,
PM can u explain what u think Allah meant by slaves in that verse?
Raqabah in 4/92 refers to a person in bondage. It could be a financial bondage for example.
its quite surprising to know that someone believes that our living conditions are no better than people of 570 AD. and that we are equal to the slaves of that period .
Im sorry but this doesnt answer my point. Im not talking about living conditions, im speaking of what matters, the evolution of our selves. I can live with all the amenities which these times provide but unless I follow Quranic law, my self will not develop accordingly. In other words, 'technology' is not an element in the equation of suitablility in the Quranic criteria.
o.k. do u believe the torah, gospel etc were guidance/messages from God?
No.
Elena it is unfair that you say I have attached preconception about the word when the meaning from the beginning was slave = a person who is owned by another person
You asked me if paying taxes makes one a slave. I replied that slavery is defined by governance. I.e. you follow X's laws, you're X's slave. So the essence of slavery is not Kunta Kinte style suffering. You could live in relative opulence and still be a slave to a person.
I said I intuit that you've attached a preconcieved notion. If Im wrong, my humble apologies.
good to know that the reading uses two different words for those two different meanings. Then, why did you start talking about abd-servant when the topic was slave person who is owned by another person?
Because that's not the only verse pertaining to slaves. Please look at 24/32, which uses the word 'your slaves' (ibadikum)
what slavery? person who is owned by another person or servant of God?
Both. You cannot escape from serving something, even if its your ego. That's why there's no 'athiesm' in quranic thought.
PMby suitable, i mean appropriate to the present state of affairs and living conditions.
for eg, the punishment for stealing- i would think imprisionment is appropriate rather than chopping the hand.
propably people of that period needed such rules as they did not have much concepts of right and wrong. would the same severity be required now?I salute your honesty in using the phrase 'i think' and 'probably'. Sadly, this is where it ends because on paper, we can't see which is more suitable, modern retributions or quranic retributions. I trust al-quraan to provide the most suitable punishments because of the accuracy with which it has deconstructed the world for me. The only test to suitability is the results.
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I respect your opinion and decision but keep developing yourself by reading and studying the Quran. It's not as hard as it is as people will tell you but takes time and I'm still learning
I have witness your understanding of Qur'an on Leaving the Body and other threads. Its you who needs to learn how to do interpretation of verses logically instead of me.
Again thank you for advice.
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Salaam KGB,
I have not problem with different interpretation of cutting hands. I said exactly what you are saying in different words ofcouse. I never had any problem discussing issues with Joe, Kyle or you.
Same goes with me. We may not agree, but alhamdulillah, the right attitude is there.
If it was cutting of the hands, i should have no problem with it either if it was really the case. In any ruling given by Allah or His messenger, the correct response is we hear and we obey.
I had a problem with this with the democracy issue some years back. I could not believe that al-quraan doesn't prescribe democracy. However, after observing 'modern evolved' society, I understood why. Al-quraan simply knows us better that we'd ever know ourselves.
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Raqabah in 4/92 refers to a person in bondage. It could be a financial bondage for example.
I call it Corporation slavery. Slaves of the sytem set up by rich and powerful. Financial institution and Credit Cards system Slavery. I believe I fully agree on you on the modern day slavery concept.
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I call it Corporation slavery. Slaves of the sytem set up by rich and powerful. Financial institution and Credit Cards system Slavery. I believe I fully agree on you on the modern day slavery concept.
Yes exactly. These corporations are the best examples of the modern-day slave masters. Using their economic leverage , they enforce a whole culture of greed and oppression.
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PeacefulMuslim
100 lashes punishment for adultery is the most appropriate even in today. Read the verses carefully which are clear that this punishment is prescribed by Allah Taala to cause shame and humiliation for adulterers instead of harming them physically. This is my understanding you have the right to disagree.
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Salaam all,
wow hot discussions again!!!
Jaxal don't make us to be your enemies, please!?
Mq I agree with you, that's all I can say right now when i have read what you have written.
Peace Sis Maria