Judaism

el-Aziz

Peace be upon you El Aziz,

What on earth is a muslim child?

Exactly, its like saying, "can peaceful children selebrate halloween?"

This question does make even less sense. To me it's like asking "can a distorted kid eat ketchup?" (No offence, author of this thread...)

I dont want violent children doing anything except getting guidance! D

I think that the "getting guidance", at least in a spiritual sense, is more of a grown up thing to pursue...

You say you are converting to judaism, what are you converting from?

Nothing in particular.

there is nothing wrong with accepting "this reading and that which came before it" without limiting yourself with some religious sect, be it judaism, christianity, so called islam, buddism, etc.

Are you refering to judaism as a sect? I think that you have misunderstood what judaism is about.
What makes you belive that one who joins jews limits him/herself? With all do respect, I believe that you are the one limiting yourself to already made up beliefs.

Lastly, what is the problem if someone had gay friends? I dont personally dont desire to hang out with gay people because I do not want to see any homosexual affection, but it is not the people we should be against but the SEXUAL ACT.

I don't see how we cannot be against gay people if "we should be against but the SEXUAL ACT" which a crucial part of expressing ones love. If it is within a serious relationship, that is...

el-Aziz

Peace el-aziz,

If you don't mind, would you please post your findings here (on a separate thread, of course)? Whatever the outcome may be.

Thanks )

No problem zenje,

I don't mind posting my findings but I'm not too sure what you would like me to speak of? Can you elaborate what "findings" you are refering to?

all the best!
/S

unknownuser

Peace be upon you El Aziz,

This question does make even less sense. To me it's like asking "can a distorted kid eat ketchup?" (No offence, author of this thread...)

Why "distorted"?

Quote
I dont want violent children doing anything except getting guidance!

I think that the "getting guidance", at least in a spiritual sense, is more of a grown up thing to pursue...

Guidance is closely associated with the "word", it is around the age of 2 that the human begins to learn words, so I would disagree with that.

Quote
You say you are converting to judaism, what are you converting from?

Nothing in particular.

So how then is it considered "converting"?

Quote
there is nothing wrong with accepting "this reading and that which came before it" without limiting yourself with some religious sect, be it judaism, christianity, so called islam, buddism, etc.

Are you refering to judaism as a sect?

Yes, ANY title that makes a division amongst mankind other than Peaceful and wicked.

I think that you have misunderstood what judaism is about.

If it is something other than what I have stated above, please enlighten me.

What makes you belive that one who joins jews limits him/herself?

Because if you are joining one section of mankind, that means you are disconnecting from the rest.

With all do respect, I believe that you are the one limiting yourself to already made up beliefs.

Respected. if you would like to discuss further I would be happy to.

Quote
Lastly, what is the problem if someone had gay friends? I dont personally dont desire to hang out with gay people because I do not want to see any homosexual affection, but it is not the people we should be against but the SEXUAL ACT.

I don't see how we cannot be against gay people if "we should be against but the SEXUAL ACT" which a crucial part of expressing ones love. If it is within a serious relationship, that is...

I "love" my dad, male cousins, male friends without putting my penis in them. Simple as that. thats why it is homoSEXual.

Same deal with a liar, murderer, one who covet money, one who deals injustly, etc, we probably have many friends who do wrong actions, it is the action we disagree with, not the person....

I'll give a better example, we are told to lower the wing to our parents UNLESS they try to get us to follow other than the God, so it would not be our parents we disagree with, but the ACTIONS they are trying to get us to follow.

I hope that was clear.

zenje

I thought I'd split these posts to a separate thread.

Peace

zenje

Peace el-aziz,

If you don't mind, would you please post your findings here (on a separate thread, of course)? Whatever the outcome may be.

Thanks )

No problem zenje,

I don't mind posting my findings but I'm not too sure what you would like me to speak of? Can you elaborate what "findings" you are refering to?

Well, you did say...
I am having contact with a couple of rabbis with whom I'm discussing the matter.

We'll see what happens...
It 'sounded' to me like you haven't made up your mind yet, and only based on meeting(s) will you choose. So Whatever you decided to do or not to do, if you dont mind, I would really be interested to know what went on.

In fact I'd like to know how you came about wanting to convert to Judaism. Also, maybe you could highlight some basics on the subject. Since you also said...
Are you refering to judaism as a sect? I think that you have misunderstood what judaism is about.
I thought Judaism was a religion of people who call themselves Jews. So I'm a little confused here also. Please elaborate.

Thanks

el-Aziz

I think I got the pcture now zenje...

In fact I'd like to know how you came about wanting to convert to Judaism. Also, maybe you could highlight some basics on the subject. Since you also said...
Are you refering to judaism as a sect? I think that you have misunderstood what judaism is about.
I thought Judaism was a religion of people who call themselves Jews. So I'm a little confused here also. Please elaborate.

Well, let's say that judaism is the "AM/FAMILY" of jews. Many of the jewish people do believe in God, but not all. Still, they are just as much family members.

In the case of converting, one is actually asking for being adopted by this Am - which might seem a bit odd. "Why do you wish to be a part of our family, don't you have a family of your own?".
Judaism is extremly bound to not only people, liturgy and traditions - but also culture, humour and socializing among jews. And within the frames of what defines this family member, there can be so many ideas of one subject.

The reasons why I may want to convert to Judaism are many. In some way, I would like to be part of and be a representant of that very old family and its various beliefs on let's say God. As in "were the stone tablets really written literally by God, or did Moses carve them by himself - inspirated by God, or did he just make it up, or is it just an allegory?". Every one of these explanations or "midrashim" are just as correct to pretty much most jews between orthodox and liberal ones.

I also have many jewish friends and I am impressed by the culture around jewish social life. One rabbi I just met said something like this "I mean, how long did it take for us to summon the written Torah and the Tanak? Many hundred years! And of course, there has to be mistakes to such a scripture. Like, who was the jerk that misspelled "sheep" so that we now have borth "keseb" and "kebes". Pretty funny actually."

It is not only about the attitude towards ones beliefs and being able to admit mistakes but also keeping it that way. These are some reasons why I may convert to judaism which by the way is a very long process.

kindly,
S

zenje

Peace el-Aziz,

And thanks for the explanation. Do you (or did you ever) believe in quran as part of God's words?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

In the case of converting, one is actually asking for being adopted by this Am - which might seem a bit odd. "Why do you wish to be a part of our family, don't you have a family of your own?".
Judaism is extremly bound to not only people, liturgy and traditions - but also culture, humour and socializing among jews. And within the frames of what defines this family member, there can be so many ideas of one subject.

The reasons why I may want to convert to Judaism are many. In some way, I would like to be part of and be a representant of that very old family and its various beliefs on let's say God. As in "were the stone tablets really written literally by God, or did Moses carve them by himself - inspirated by God, or did he just make it up, or is it just an allegory?". Every one of these explanations or "midrashim" are just as correct to pretty much most jews between orthodox and liberal ones.

I also have many jewish friends and I am impressed by the culture around jewish social life. One rabbi I just met said something like this "I mean, how long did it take for us to summon the written Torah and the Tanak? Many hundred years! And of course, there has to be mistakes to such a scripture. Like, who was the jerk that misspelled "sheep" so that we now have borth "keseb" and "kebes". Pretty funny actually."

It is not only about the attitude towards ones beliefs and being able to admit mistakes but also keeping it that way. These are some reasons why I may convert to judaism which by the way is a very long process.

This is a very fair point. For people who treat 'quranism' as religion, it can get very lonely. Sunnism, at the very least, offers you company in the nonsensical rituals you do.

However, for people who take Al-islaam as it should be, thier company is simply the decent people of this world.

el-Aziz

Peace el-Aziz,

And thanks for the explanation. Do you (or did you ever) believe in quran as part of God's words?

Well, as a matter of fact - all words are words of God. It is more a matter to me whether the words are brought to you by someone with faith. Or else one most likely ends up with rituals (such as mquran just described) that are meaningless.

I wouldn't say that the Quran is of God as in "the words of God". However, it does speak OF them. So it's still important to know that the words are very much results of man but speaks OF a higher wisdom but it isn't that wisdom itself.

Hope that was understandable.

/S

el-Aziz

Why "distorted"?

I just took it as one example. I just as well change it to "Can retired nurses write christmas cards". Doesn't make any sense to me.

Guidance is closely associated with the "word", it is around the age of 2 that the human begins to learn words, so I would disagree with that.

The issue of and need for spiritual guidance does not occur until we actually have learned the language. Until then, we struggle with quitte different things.
As for the word learning example, do you honestly believe that a kid that is (as in the case of my gf) 6 months or, as is most common - one year old - starts to urge for guidance of a spiritual sort - right there? I'm convinced that it is absolutely not so.

So how then is it considered "converting"?

One that is non-jewish has to convert to being jewish in order to be considered a jew. Converting is simply the term for becoming a jew from the base of not being one. It does not suggest that one changes something.

Yes, ANY title that makes a division amongst mankind other than Peaceful and wicked.
If it is something other than what I have stated above, please enlighten me.

First of all, I think you need to separate your own semantic ideas about a sect and what actually is one.
Judaism is most of all a people or in hebrew "am" (arabic "ummah"). The original part is probably the theology of beleiving in one God and joining others (to start with, Abraham) that did the same thing. To qoute from jewfaq.org A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox

Thus one can be homoseual atheist, bombing synagogues but would still be considered a jew by let's say a chasid (i. e. a very orthodox jew).

So if you want to define judaism as a sect, I think you need to read up on both "sects" and "jews".

Because if you are joining one section of mankind, that means you are disconnecting from the rest.

Really?
So if I dress hip hop (which can be understodd as one section of mankind) and join my brothaz in ma hoodz (ok, I admit I don't make a good impression of someone hip hop ), will that detach me from the rest of the world? Seriously!

I "love" my dad, male cousins, male friends without putting my penis in them. Simple as that. thats why it is homoSEXual.

Same deal with a liar, murderer, one who covet money, one who deals injustly, etc, we probably have many friends who do wrong actions, it is the action we disagree with, not the person....

I'll give a better example, we are told to lower the wing to our parents UNLESS they try to get us to follow other than the God, so it would not be our parents we disagree with, but the ACTIONS they are trying to get us to follow.

I hope that was clear.

You have made yourself pretty clear, except for the part where you equal homosexual acts with a "...liar, murderer, one who covet money, one who deals injustly, etc..."

Can you please explain what's wrong with homosexual acts (and with that I assume you mean sexual acts between people of the same sex)?

humbly,
S

el-Aziz

This is a very fair point. For people who treat 'quranism' as religion, it can get very lonely. Sunnism, at the very least, offers you company in the nonsensical rituals you do.

However, for people who take Al-islaam as it should be, thier company is simply the decent people of this world.

Well, there's really no point in performing any rituals what so ever unless there's a meaning to them.

I don't know how islam can be taken in the way it should be. It is not to be taken in anyway since it simply speak for itself (if one doesn't follow the religion called islam, which fits a different definition of the term). Did I understand you correctly?

mquran

I don't know how islam can be taken in the way it should be. It is not to be taken in anyway since it simply speak for itself (if one doesn't follow the religion called islam, which fits a different definition of the term). Did I understand you correctly?

Well, what Im getting at is this. You're about to join a socio-historical group called 'the jews'. Thier criteria for membership is either birth from a Jewish mother or conversion. There's no limit to what kind of a Jew you can be , even an athiest Jew as you pointed out. So purpose and ethics isn't really a factor in 'being jew'. On the other hand, these guys are known for helping each other in a manner that puts other socio-cultures to shame.

Al-islaam, taken the way it should be, manifests in a brotherhood of individuals dedicated to az-zakaat or the growth/evolution of humankind. Its not a socio-culture and isnt bound by any socio-cultural rules. Its the operationalisation of the system which is embedded in the universe. Hope i've clarified things for you.

el-Aziz

Well, what Im getting at is this. You're about to join a socio-historical group called 'the jews'. Thier criteria for membership is either birth from a Jewish mother or conversion. There's no limit to what kind of a Jew you can be , even an athiest Jew as you pointed out. So purpose and ethics isn't really a factor in 'being jew'. On the other hand, these guys are known for helping each other in a manner that puts other socio-cultures to shame.

Man, the part obout helping each other does sound only sane to me. The one about putting other cultures to shame is something I would like you to elaborate.

Al-islaam, taken the way it should be, manifests in a brotherhood of individuals dedicated to az-zakaat or the growth/evolution of humankind. Its not a socio-culture and isnt bound by any socio-cultural rules. Its the operationalisation of the system which is embedded in the universe. Hope i've clarified things for you.

What you call Al-islaam is an invention of your own and no different in manmadeness than sunni or shi'a.
Either, you aughta define what islaam means or you just admit that you want to create something sunni-similar and claim it's something universal.

mquran

Man, the part obout helping each other does sound only sane to me. The one about putting other cultures to shame is something I would like you to elaborate.

Its a metaphor meaning, the level of co-operation they give each other, in my experience, is more than any other socio-culture.

What you call Al-islaam is an invention of your own and no different in manmadeness than sunni or shi'a.

What makes you think that? Do you think im not taking it from al-quraan or do you think al-quraan itself is a man-made product?

Either, you aughta define what islaam means or you just admit that you want to create something sunni-similar and claim it's something universal.

I just defined what al-islaam means above. If you think im wrong, you're free to either bring your evidence or not.Its no big deal.

el-Aziz

Its a metaphor meaning, the level of co-operation they give each other, in my experience, is more than any other socio-culture.

I heard you. I'm still refering to the part where jews put other cultures to shame that I'd like you to elaborate. Yalla!

What makes you think that? Do you think im not taking it from al-quraan or do you think al-quraan itself is a man-made product?

It is indeed manmade! But nor the less a very good one. Applying divine attributes to the making of the quran would be jumping to idolizing conclusions.

I just defined what al-islaam means above. If you think im wrong, you're free to either bring your evidence or not.Its no big deal.

No, that was the definition of how you like islaam to be applied and how the header islaam could be further defined by things to do. It was not a picture of the word itself.

mquran

I heard you. I'm still refering to the part where jews put other cultures to shame that I'd like you to elaborate. Yalla!

Ah yes. As I said, its the level of co-operation. They generally help each other more and exploit each other less. This is in my experience.

It is indeed manmade! But nor the less a very good one. Applying divine attributes to the making of the quran would be jumping to idolizing conclusions.

I see. I don't share your metaphysics, obviously.

No, that was the definition of how you like islaam to be applied and how the header islaam could be further defined by things to do. It was not a picture of the word itself.

If you mean 'a picture of the word itself' as the dictionaries explain it, you're right. However, as al-quraan uses it, I believe you're wrong.

ichephren

Salaam Everyone,
From what I've gotten out of this thread, Aziz wants to become a Jew because he likes their culture and the way they treat religion amongst themselves. I'd like to make a few points(for him and I guess everyone)

If it is their culture that you like, then why not just have more Jewish friends? Why must you become a Jew in order to appreciate their culture? Isn't it kind of like saying that you like Black people and their culture and how they relate to things, so you want to be Black?
The way in which they treat their religion, if they know that the Torah is riddled with mistakes and do not care, is rather silly in my opinion. How can you claim something to be of God when it is full of mistakes and historical inaccuracies? Saying that all words are "of God" is just playing with semantics. Do you not care about the purity of your text?
You have only pointed out a certain percentage of Jews who behave in the way you describe. What about the Jews who would fight you if you told them that the Torah is not to be taken literally? What about Jews who hate non-Jews? Once again, it's like saying that you wanna be Black b/c you like rap culture or something.
From the looks of things, I think that you enjoy the freedom gained from the thinking that being a Jew is no more than an ethnic category. I do think that being Jewish is more than that since the culture is founded around Judaism as a religion, but I digress...is your stance on homosexuality involved here? Or perhaps you would like the freedom to be anyhting yet also be a Jew?

zenje

Peace el-Aziz,

I just wanted to say thank you for taking your time and your patience in answering my basic questions. )

DHULQARNANE

First of all, it is no secret that I'm planning on converting to judaism.

My question is...what are you converting to?? Is Judaism from Allah?, if so, please post the ayat or Torah verse where Allah or Moses says that, they brought Judaism as a Deen. Thanks.

zenje

Peace mquran n all,

This is a very fair point. For people who treat 'quranism' as religion, it can get very lonely. Sunnism, at the very least, offers you company in the nonsensical rituals you do.

This reminds me of a conversation that I had with my cousin who's not a practising sunni, so to speak, but had decided that she would never leave sunniism for the social benefits. In other words, it didn't matter what truth she found, because the sunnis would end up alienating her if she ever spoke of it.

Say ?Shall we call upon other than God what cannot benefit us or harm us, and we turn back on our heels after God has guided us?? This is like the one whom the devils have managed to mislead on Earth, he is confused, having friends who call him to the guidance ?Come to us!? Say ?The guidance is God?s guidance, and we have been ordered to surrender to the Lord of the worlds.?
And he said ?You have taken idols besides God in order to preserve some friendship among you in this worldly life. But then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will disown one another, and curse one another. Your destiny is Hell, and you will have no victors.?
You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day befriending those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with a spirit from Him, and He admits them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath, wherein they will abide. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners.

Chapter 70
5. So be patient with a good patience.
6. They see it as far away.
7. And We see it as near.
8. On the Day the sky is like molten copper.
9. And the mountains are like wool.
10. And no friend will ask about his friend.
11. When they see it, the criminal will wish he can ransom his children against the retribution.
12. As well as his mate and his brother.
13. As well as his whole clan that protected him.
14. And all who are on Earth, so that he can be saved!