Judaism
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I don't know how islam can be taken in the way it should be. It is not to be taken in anyway since it simply speak for itself (if one doesn't follow the religion called islam, which fits a different definition of the term). Did I understand you correctly?
Well, what Im getting at is this. You're about to join a socio-historical group called 'the jews'. Thier criteria for membership is either birth from a Jewish mother or conversion. There's no limit to what kind of a Jew you can be , even an athiest Jew as you pointed out. So purpose and ethics isn't really a factor in 'being jew'. On the other hand, these guys are known for helping each other in a manner that puts other socio-cultures to shame.
Al-islaam, taken the way it should be, manifests in a brotherhood of individuals dedicated to az-zakaat or the growth/evolution of humankind. Its not a socio-culture and isnt bound by any socio-cultural rules. Its the operationalisation of the system which is embedded in the universe. Hope i've clarified things for you.
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Well, what Im getting at is this. You're about to join a socio-historical group called 'the jews'. Thier criteria for membership is either birth from a Jewish mother or conversion. There's no limit to what kind of a Jew you can be , even an athiest Jew as you pointed out. So purpose and ethics isn't really a factor in 'being jew'. On the other hand, these guys are known for helping each other in a manner that puts other socio-cultures to shame.
Man, the part obout helping each other does sound only sane to me. The one about putting other cultures to shame is something I would like you to elaborate.
Al-islaam, taken the way it should be, manifests in a brotherhood of individuals dedicated to az-zakaat or the growth/evolution of humankind. Its not a socio-culture and isnt bound by any socio-cultural rules. Its the operationalisation of the system which is embedded in the universe. Hope i've clarified things for you.
What you call Al-islaam is an invention of your own and no different in manmadeness than sunni or shi'a.
Either, you aughta define what islaam means or you just admit that you want to create something sunni-similar and claim it's something universal. -
Man, the part obout helping each other does sound only sane to me. The one about putting other cultures to shame is something I would like you to elaborate.
Its a metaphor meaning, the level of co-operation they give each other, in my experience, is more than any other socio-culture.
What you call Al-islaam is an invention of your own and no different in manmadeness than sunni or shi'a.
What makes you think that? Do you think im not taking it from al-quraan or do you think al-quraan itself is a man-made product?
Either, you aughta define what islaam means or you just admit that you want to create something sunni-similar and claim it's something universal.
I just defined what al-islaam means above. If you think im wrong, you're free to either bring your evidence or not.Its no big deal.
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Its a metaphor meaning, the level of co-operation they give each other, in my experience, is more than any other socio-culture.
I heard you. I'm still refering to the part where jews put other cultures to shame that I'd like you to elaborate. Yalla!
What makes you think that? Do you think im not taking it from al-quraan or do you think al-quraan itself is a man-made product?
It is indeed manmade! But nor the less a very good one. Applying divine attributes to the making of the quran would be jumping to idolizing conclusions.
I just defined what al-islaam means above. If you think im wrong, you're free to either bring your evidence or not.Its no big deal.
No, that was the definition of how you like islaam to be applied and how the header islaam could be further defined by things to do. It was not a picture of the word itself.
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I heard you. I'm still refering to the part where jews put other cultures to shame that I'd like you to elaborate. Yalla!
Ah yes. As I said, its the level of co-operation. They generally help each other more and exploit each other less. This is in my experience.
It is indeed manmade! But nor the less a very good one. Applying divine attributes to the making of the quran would be jumping to idolizing conclusions.
I see. I don't share your metaphysics, obviously.
No, that was the definition of how you like islaam to be applied and how the header islaam could be further defined by things to do. It was not a picture of the word itself.
If you mean 'a picture of the word itself' as the dictionaries explain it, you're right. However, as al-quraan uses it, I believe you're wrong.
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Salaam Everyone,
From what I've gotten out of this thread, Aziz wants to become a Jew because he likes their culture and the way they treat religion amongst themselves. I'd like to make a few points(for him and I guess everyone)- If it is their culture that you like, then why not just have more Jewish friends? Why must you become a Jew in order to appreciate their culture? Isn't it kind of like saying that you like Black people and their culture and how they relate to things, so you want to be Black?
- The way in which they treat their religion, if they know that the Torah is riddled with mistakes and do not care, is rather silly in my opinion. How can you claim something to be of God when it is full of mistakes and historical inaccuracies? Saying that all words are "of God" is just playing with semantics. Do you not care about the purity of your text?
- You have only pointed out a certain percentage of Jews who behave in the way you describe. What about the Jews who would fight you if you told them that the Torah is not to be taken literally? What about Jews who hate non-Jews? Once again, it's like saying that you wanna be Black b/c you like rap culture or something.
- From the looks of things, I think that you enjoy the freedom gained from the thinking that being a Jew is no more than an ethnic category. I do think that being Jewish is more than that since the culture is founded around Judaism as a religion, but I digress...is your stance on homosexuality involved here? Or perhaps you would like the freedom to be anyhting yet also be a Jew?
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First of all, it is no secret that I'm planning on converting to judaism.
My question is...what are you converting to?? Is Judaism from Allah?, if so, please post the ayat or Torah verse where Allah or Moses says that, they brought Judaism as a Deen. Thanks.
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Peace mquran n all,
This is a very fair point. For people who treat 'quranism' as religion, it can get very lonely. Sunnism, at the very least, offers you company in the nonsensical rituals you do.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with my cousin who's not a practising sunni, so to speak, but had decided that she would never leave sunniism for the social benefits. In other words, it didn't matter what truth she found, because the sunnis would end up alienating her if she ever spoke of it.
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Say ?Shall we call upon other than God what cannot benefit us or harm us, and we turn back on our heels after God has guided us?? This is like the one whom the devils have managed to mislead on Earth, he is confused, having friends who call him to the guidance ?Come to us!? Say ?The guidance is God?s guidance, and we have been ordered to surrender to the Lord of the worlds.?
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And he said ?You have taken idols besides God in order to preserve some friendship among you in this worldly life. But then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will disown one another, and curse one another. Your destiny is Hell, and you will have no victors.?
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You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day befriending those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with a spirit from Him, and He admits them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath, wherein they will abide. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners.
Chapter 70
5. So be patient with a good patience.
6. They see it as far away.
7. And We see it as near.
8. On the Day the sky is like molten copper.
9. And the mountains are like wool.
10. And no friend will ask about his friend.
11. When they see it, the criminal will wish he can ransom his children against the retribution.
12. As well as his mate and his brother.
13. As well as his whole clan that protected him.
14. And all who are on Earth, so that he can be saved! -
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Peace Aziz,
What happened to the laws of God? Is that not the whole point of the revealed Scripture that we have laws and rules by which we are able to serve God and live according to His path?
Judaism as a culture is irrelevant in these discussions of God's laws.
Will you stone the adulterer? Will you sell your daughter who is raped to the rapist for a few sheckles? Would you tell people that God comes down in human form to earth and was wresteled to the ground by a Jewish prophet?
These are only some of the blasphemies and nonsences that the Jewish religion and scripture promotes...
I think forsaking the path of God just to be with a people who you deem to be 'funny' is not the wisest of approaches...
I am certain that the Palestinains who are run over by tanks, shot, beaten, murdered, have their land stolen and their houses demolished do not find the Jews to be 'funny'.
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Salaam Everyone,
From what I've gotten out of this thread, Aziz wants to become a Jew because he likes their culture and the way they treat religion amongst themselves. I'd like to make a few points(for him and I guess everyone)First of all, thank you for a very interesting post on the subject.
Second, I cannot enough stress the fact that I'm still only pondering on converting but we'll see what happens.- If it is their culture that you like, then why not just have more Jewish friends? Why must you become a Jew in order to appreciate their culture? Isn't it kind of like saying that you like Black people and their culture and how they relate to things, so you want to be Black?
Well, one CAN become jew by a process, but Iam not aware of any case where one ever has transformed into a black person. Except for that Woody Allen film "Zelig" of course. But I guess that doesn't count.
I do appreciate their culture already but I don't consider it to be the same thing as being part of the jewish "Am".If we put it in sportsterms, jews could represent the soccer team that I'm watching. Don't get me wrong, I still like it but I'd rather want to have the option of playing also. And you can't really play in the team "Am Yahudi" without actually being a player, can you?
- The way in which they treat their religion, if they know that the Torah is riddled with mistakes and do not care, is rather silly in my opinion. How can you claim something to be of God when it is full of mistakes and historical inaccuracies? Saying that all words are "of God" is just playing with semantics. Do you not care about the purity of your text?
It is not that jews don't care, but they are aware of history and its courses. They don't deny the inevitable human interference of so called "holy" scriptures.
It is very much like making a film, if you grind to have it be projected on the big screen and once you're there watching the film that sets in a 13th century inviroment..."d-mn, I KNEW we missed something" and there's that digital wrist watch. It may not be that everyone will notice. Maybe it takes a lot of attention to see it. But it's there and you do not remake the film, nor do you consider the film to be spoiled.
I don't really play with semantics here, I simply state that no one has ever proven the claim that their/his/her words are them of Gods, while a text can still keep it's purity without having to prove such a claim.
I don't know what you refer to as "my" text but I guess you mean the jewish scriptures. As far as I can tell, I don't play games such as trying desperately to chase the divine aspect of every word therein, for I know that many of it is pure BS. The respect of the Torah among jews is in my opinon rather something historical which links them all together.- You have only pointed out a certain percentage of Jews who behave in the way you describe. What about the Jews who would fight you if you told them that the Torah is not to be taken literally? What about Jews who hate non-Jews? Once again, it's like saying that you wanna be Black b/c you like rap culture or something.
I have not pointed out a certain percentage of jews who are this tolerant. In fact I know so many jerks that sees the jewish center here in Sthlm I'd like to punch them in the face. Of course, I wouldn't actually do that - but still.
Jews can also be seen as a nation, and you're asking me about the inhabitants of a country - "why would I wanna live in Canada when there are jerks like Pastor Phelps (enjoying the great number of Swedes that were killed in the tsunami).
It is pretty natural that one of the eldest nations of the world has quite a lot idiots among them, saying anything else would be pure hypocracy in my opinion.- From the looks of things, I think that you enjoy the freedom gained from the thinking that being a Jew is no more than an ethnic category. I do think that being Jewish is more than that since the culture is founded around Judaism as a religion, but I digress...is your stance on homosexuality involved here? Or perhaps you would like the freedom to be anyhting yet also be a Jew?
In that case I didn't make myself clear. Jews are originally a people with their bases on the theology promoted by Abraham and his life. This is the only thing that (except for DNA) links them together. There's the jewish history based on the theology which (,even if made pretty hard,) invites non-jews or "goyim" to be part of the nation/am; and there's also the obvious dna. with this jewish society comes the many aspects such as culture, social life etc...
Are you asking, if still delicately, whether I am gay? I am not.
As for the freedom part, there are certain very precise things that defines a jew, and in order to convert to judaism one has to stick to these, period. -
First of all, it is no secret that I'm planning on converting to judaism.
My question is...what are you converting to?? Is Judaism from Allah?, if so, please post the ayat or Torah verse where Allah or Moses says that, they brought Judaism as a Deen. Thanks.
Listen man, that you'd have to ask someone that makes such a stupid claim that judaism is a deen from God. 'Cause I don't.
I answered the question out of zenjes curiousity where upon he split the thread in order to discuss the subject on another thread. -
Peace Aziz,
Can you tell us more about these things that precisely define a 'jew'?
I respect your interest in the culture, that is your right. But it is something rare to me, one would normally expect something special to cause someone to embrace a faith. A spiritual experience maybe, but from what I gather you just want to join the 'football team' and play on the field, what field? Is it easier to get rich if you are jewish? Do you suddenly get a lot of valuable contacts that help and support you greatly in life?
I am only curious, I do not intend to pressure you in any way for or against your choices, it is your freedom. This sort of thing can be a sensitive subject and I don't intend on winding anyone up.
Nural
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Peace be upon you El Aziz,
Thank you for allowing us to disuss your journey
idolfree1 wrote
Why "distorted"?I just took it as one example. I just as well change it to "Can retired nurses write christmas cards". Doesn't make any sense to me.
Then I agree it makes no sense
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Guidance is closely associated with the "word", it is around the age of 2 that the human begins to learn words, so I would disagree with that.The issue of and need for spiritual guidance does not occur until we actually have learned the language. Until then, we struggle with quitte different things.
As for the word learning example, do you honestly believe that a kid that is (as in the case of my gf) 6 months or, as is most common - one year old - starts to urge for guidance of a spiritual sort - right there? I'm convinced that it is absolutely not so.You will have to come to an exact deifinition of "spiritual". You will find that many cannot explain that word. That which is spiritual is that which deals with the "nafs"(spirit/mind). The human being comes into existense when the Spirit(nafs) is BREATHED into the human, and that happens before the baby even comes out of the womb. If you ponder on it, you will realize that the spiritual journey starts when the Spirit (nafs) is blown into the "clay". If you stil agree, I will ask you to define EXACTLY at what age/time one begins to seek "spiritual" guidance? Just because a baby cannot articulate exactly what the urges it is experiening are, does not mean it doesnt have these urges.
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So how then is it considered "converting"?One that is non-jewish has to convert to being jewish in order to be considered a jew. Converting is simply the term for becoming a jew from the base of not being one. It does not suggest that one changes something.
To "convert" is to change from one thing to another, so you have to be coming from somewhere.
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Yes, ANY title that makes a division amongst mankind other than Peaceful and wicked.
If it is something other than what I have stated above, please enlighten me.First of all, I think you need to separate your own semantic ideas about a sect and what actually is one.
Sect is easy to understand. We can look at the word "SECTion" as oppossed to "WHOLE". When we take from the WHOLE and break into SECTions, each section rejoicing in what it has as oppossed to others, then it is a sect. Peacefulness(islam) is a way of life.
Judaism is most of all a people or in hebrew "am" (arabic "ummah"). The original part is probably the theology of beleiving in one God and joining others (to start with, Abraham) that did the same thing. To qoute from jewfaq.org A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox
Why would one have to perform a ritual even if they already hold the very same beliefs?
Thus one can be homoseual atheist, bombing synagogues but would still be considered a jew by let's say a chasid (i. e. a very orthodox jew).
So if you want to define judaism as a sect, I think you need to read up on both "sects" and "jews".
I am very clear on the subject, but there is no compulsion in the peaceful way.
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Because if you are joining one section of mankind, that means you are disconnecting from the rest.Really?
So if I dress hip hop (which can be understodd as one section of mankind) and join my brothaz in ma hoodz (ok, I admit I don't make a good impression of someone hip hop ), will that detach me from the rest of the world? Seriously!I was not talking on the physical level, I am speaking of the Spiritual/mental level, your THOUGHTS/IDEAS. So to take your example, what does it mean to"join my brothaz in the hood"? Do you mean to physically move there? If so, then no that does not detach yuo from the rest of the world. But I dont think you meant moving to Isreal when you said "converting to Judaism". I think what you meant was taking on a certain belief system. So to use my neighborhood as an example of "the hood", many on my block have the mindset that they should sell drugs, which makes them part of a "group" who may or may not eventually go to war with another group who sells drugs. This disconnects one human from another.
Same with judaism, the RELIGION ISLAM christianity, etc etc.
PEACEFULNESS does not cause sects.
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I "love" my dad, male cousins, male friends without putting my penis in them. Simple as that. thats why it is homoSEXual.Same deal with a liar, murderer, one who covet money, one who deals injustly, etc, we probably have many friends who do wrong actions, it is the action we disagree with, not the person....
I'll give a better example, we are told to lower the wing to our parents UNLESS they try to get us to follow other than the God, so it would not be our parents we disagree with, but the ACTIONS they are trying to get us to follow.
I hope that was clear.
You have made yourself pretty clear, except for the part where you equal homosexual acts with a "...liar, murderer, one who covet money, one who deals injustly, etc..."
Can you please explain what's wrong with homosexual acts (and with that I assume you mean sexual acts between people of the same sex)?
The man and woman are created to come together to continue the species, just like all creatures do naturally. To go against nature is the wrong path. Form and function show us clearly the purpose of the penis and vagina, see how they fit together perfectly? Do you try to put a plug into another plug, or into an outlet?
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Is it easier to get rich if you are jewish?
Isn't that the old stereotype prejudice against the Jews? Would you raise this question if he would convert to Bahai or Christianity?
To el-Aziz does the Torah give you something what the Quran doesn't? I mean, if you like the jewish culture and traditions it doesn't mean that you have to convert. So we have to go to the basics of the religion, the Torah. Do you find answers in the Torah, which are left open in the Quran?
salaams
warda -
SaLaM Everyone
el-aziz, brother if you want to be a jew, then be a jew. if you want to be a christian, then be a christian. BE a budhist if you want to. But know this, on the day of judgement, You will be standing in front of God and you will have to answer to God. Good luck to you.
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SaLaM Everyone
el-aziz, brother if you want to be a jew, then be a jew. if you want to be a christian, then be a christian. BE a budhist if you want to. But know this, on the day of judgement, You will be standing in front of God and you will have to answer to God. Good luck to you.
This sounds as a threat! Why?
Regards,
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Peace be upon you,
For the record, Yes, you can convert to any title you want, just remember that those who purify thier Sprit/Mind(nafs) succeed, those who dont fail.
Shalom be upon you, same thing right?
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Peace upon you Layth...
Peace Aziz,
What happened to the laws of God? Is that not the whole point of the revealed Scripture that we have laws and rules by which we are able to serve God and live according to His path?
Will you stone the adulterer? Will you sell your daughter who is raped to the rapist for a few sheckles? Would you tell people that God comes down in human form to earth and was wresteled to the ground by a Jewish prophet?
These are only some of the blasphemies and nonsences that the Jewish religion and scripture promotes...
What would have happened to the laws of God?
The rules that man kind types down can never be what you refer to as God's laws, therefor they change. As for the stoning thing, it is sick and it is not practised by jews anywhere in the world. The reason is that one admits there were mistakes at the time. Take my country, there has been enormous and disgusting rituals and executions performed for nothing right in my city. Does that make me less proud to be a swede? No. Does that wipe out the dark spot of my country's history? No again. Is there a possibility that we have progressed and tend to see it from a different angle and thus do not apply these horrible things? Yes, I do think so.
Still, history keeps repeating itself in various forms. Therefor, I wouldn't make the mistake of denying my (ancestors') past.Judaism as a culture is irrelevant in these discussions of God's laws.
Zenje asked me the reason why I'm thinking of converting, so denoting the cultural aspect is not irrelevant, no.
I think forsaking the path of God just to be with a people who you deem to be 'funny' is not the wisest of approaches...
Why is it that you accuse me of forsaking the path of God?
And is that my primary approach towards judaism...is that your understanding? That is absolutely not correct.I am certain that the Palestinains who are run over by tanks, shot, beaten, murdered, have their land stolen and their houses demolished do not find the Jews to be 'funny'.
Interesting you would mention this...
According to rabbinical judaism, jews are - until the coming of messiah - not allowed to live in anything but Exile or the Diaspora - meaning that such a thing as a jewish land or "jewish state (as Eretz Israel or the state of Israel is referd to)". I am not surprised that you don't denote (or maybe even aren't aware of) the huge group of jews that refuses the state of Israel. Most of all, for religious reasons, and second - the halakhah (i.e. the religious law) clearly says no to political interference. The conflict of Israel and Palestine is a political issue, just as it was when Hertzl started his zionistic approach. This part, I will continue treat as a religious issue - no matter what parents of hating muslim or jewish parents are trying to teach their chilren. I won't let them fool me. -
hey lotetree,
SaLaM Everyone
el-aziz, brother if you want to be a jew, then be a jew. if you want to be a christian, then be a christian. BE a budhist if you want to. But know this, on the day of judgement, You will be standing in front of God and you will have to answer to God. Good luck to you.
This sounds as a threat! Why?
Regards,
It does indeed, don't ask me why...ask the guy that might be trying to make a point. I don't know what he's up to.
And thanks for noticing...
