Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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salaam jaxal
I dont think its that they dont understand the question. I think its that they dont have an answer.
Sadly I have to agree with you. If it is as such! why not simply accept that you hate democracy or whatever system you wish to dislike why try to justify it by misrepresenting the Quran.
I intensely dislike chelsea f.c. at present but I dont go around quoting the quran to justify my stupid irrational emotions.
In this forum there is often strong criticism of sunnis, shias and other joe bloggs for misrepresenting the Quran, but many seem quite oblivious to the fact that they are doing the same.
The very same people who in one sentence think it is rude to criticise but seem quite happy to use the words like an idiot etc, obviousouly no contradiction here.
regards -
Pickhtall Translation
2241 Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor-due and enjoin kindness and forbid iniquity. And Allah's is the sequel of events.
This means that you guys are allowed to throw all kinds of personal insults and want me to keep quite.
I don't like Dick Cheney but like to say to you both what he said to Sen. Leahy while presiding senate session.
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Pickhtall Translation
2241 Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor-due and enjoin kindness and forbid iniquity. And Allah's is the sequel of events.
This means that you guys are allowed to throw all kinds of personal insults and want me to keep quite.
I don't like Dick Cheney but like to say to you both what he said to Sen. Leahy while presiding senate session.
KGB. plz dont be such a drama queen like mquran. you are getting offended or angry for no damn reason. A simple question has been put to you and you are talking about dick cheney and changing IDs.
and that is NOT what the verse means... roll
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Peace,
Democracy means 'rule by the people'. This is the meaning of the word.
When democracy was first in practice it was a direct democracy where the people represented themselves. These people voted on what they agreed on by speakers in assemblies. It was a majority decision. They could pass or veto laws.
In modern democracies the people choose representatives who will act according to their interests. This is a representative democracy. The representatives have power, but they can be recalled by the people if they do not satisfy the people.
There are different types of democracies for sure. It has evolved. We have the pure democracy where the law actually reflects the will of the majority of the people. This form of democracy does limit individual freedoms. There is a demarchy where the people get selected at random to make decisions.
I do not think the quran advocates democracy of any form that I know of. Especially in it's original intent and meaning.
Joe
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salaam all
I do not think the quran advocates democracy of any form that I know of. Especially in it's original intent and meaning
.Ok it does not advocate democracy? But for the umpteenth time it does not oppose it either-that is the simple point of the whole discussion.
Just because you have not stated you are in favour of something it does not mean you opposed to it. -
salaam
I do not think the quran advocates democracy of any form that I know of. Especially in it's original intent and meaning
Perhaps you could answer the simple question what system does the Quran exactly advocate?
Regards -
Peace,
Ok it does not advocate democracy?
In my opinion no it (alquran) does not.
But for the umpteenth time it does not oppose it either-that is the simple point of the whole discussion.
It certainly does oppose it.
I believe it is clear that the rasool or rusul are to be obeyed . Not the people.
Just because you have not stated you are in favour of something it does not mean you opposed to it.
Clearly majority rule is not something Allah is in favour of.
Perhaps you could answer the simple question what system does the Quran exactly advocate?
Surely I am a faithful envoy to you So keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
See also 592; 26125-126, 143-144, 162-163, 178-179.
Obedience to Allah and the Envoy.
Joe
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SaLaM
Perhaps you could answer the simple question what system does the Quran exactly advocate?
That is a crucial question isnt it? A question that seems to elude the grasp of many people here.
O you who believe, you shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and those in charge among you. If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.
At the present time, there are no messengers of God walking around to whome we can go and refer things. So common sense, it seems, would dictate that we elect someone to lead us. Certainly it dont mean elect a tom dick or harry. You elect the one who you think is capable of leading you. And if that person lets you down, then you throw him out and get someone new. How hard is this grasp? Or is there a messenger hidden away somwhere that we are not aware of? roll
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Salaam
Here we go again!I believe it is clear that the rasool or rusul are to be obeyed . Not the people
which rasul are we going to obey on policy regarding the enviorment, speed of cars on urban roads, motorways. Perhaps the rasoul could outline the regulations regarding planning permissions in city centres.
Very simple questions.
I cannot see how the references youhave given oppose democracy.More importantly define your system of governance from the references you have given. If you are suggesting that the system is obeying the rasul then who is the rasul that we should be obeying?
regards -
Peace,
So common sense, it seems, would dictate that we elect someone to lead us.
I'm not sure if this common sense fits in with the quranic criteria.
Where does Allah give anyone the authority to elect someone to lead them? Any examples in alquran?
Certainly it dont mean elect a tom dick or harry. You elect the one who you think is capable of leading you.
What criteria do you use to pick a leader? Capable according to what standards?
And if that person lets you down, then you throw him out and get someone new.
Is this endorsed by Allah?
I see there is a problem in the standards (of what a leader is) if an ineffective leader happens to be picked.
How hard is this grasp?
It's not hard for me to grasp. I do not see this as being in sync with quranic criteria.
Or is there a messenger hidden away somwhere that we are not aware of?
I doubt a rasool would be hiding. If he were faint hearted he should soon be lead back to his appointment.
Joe
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Salaam Joe
I would like to discuss the matter of selection with you and MQuran wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen.
Hope to have this discussion in near future. I pray Allah Taala grant you lots of patience but you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.
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Peace,
Here we go again!
I hope I'm not annoying you. If so I shall stop my posts to you.
which rasul are we going to obey on policy regarding the enviorment, speed of cars on urban roads, motorways. Perhaps the rasoul could outline the regulations regarding planning permissions in city centres.
There is no which rasool to be obeyed. They must all be obeyed.
I cannot see how the references youhave given oppose democracy.
There is no majority decision on any matter.
More importantly define your system of governance from the references you have given.
Do you mean to explain in my own words what Jibril is stating in those ayatin?
If you are suggesting that the system is obeying the rasul then who is the rasul that we should be obeying?
The rasool who meets the standards of the quran. Please take a look at this article to see what I mean.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55527&highlight=#55527
Joe
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Don't worry about the harsh comments. Ignored.
wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen
you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.
This means that you guys are allowed to throw all kinds of personal insults
All the idiots I met in life believe the same way like you guys who believe that they know everything.
consistent and without any contradictions? just like the rest of the discussion!
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SaLaM
So the bottom line is... we dont know who the rusool is. it could be any guy walking down the road meeting the standards of the Quran . And if that is true then we should start obeying him... becoz that makes him a messenger ..... becoz the quran says that.
OR
We pick a guy who meets the criteria of the Quran in ways where he is a good leader. A storng leader, wise man, intelligent, able to run his kingdom properly. Ofcourse we will have to elect him to put him there but since Quran is against democracy i guess we will just let him keep walking down the street coz we dont have a clue how to put him in power. Since
Qur'an tells us that God will place the rulers on us
We should just wait for Allah to come down and somehow give him some kinda magic stick that will put him in power BECOZ WE CANT ELECT HIM BECOZ THE QURAN IS AGAINST A SYSTEM OF ELECTING PEOPLE.. Right.....
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAH rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl BAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH UN-BLUDDY-BELIEVABLE rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Peace Jaxal,
So the bottom line is... we dont know who the rusool is. it could be any guy walking down the road meeting the standards of the Quran . <cut>
We pick a guy who meets the criteria of the Quran in ways where he is a good leader
I believe you are wrong on both counts.
We will know who the rasool is.
It is not our place to pick a rasool.
I'm not sure how you came to such conslusions. Can you show me where the quran teaches the people will not know the rasool and where the people elect the rasool? I find this very strange. Perhaps I missed something that you picked up on?
Joe
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Infact, i believe it was LT who said "Quran is ANTI -DEMOCRATIC. FULL STOP". So far, nothing from him or any of you to back that statment up or prove it.
Jaxal Jaxal, you still going on this? How many times do I have to tellyou that DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW are not compatible with DEMOCRACY where people make the laws. Do you not get this at all?
2] THE SIMPLEST OF QUESTIONS ARE NOT ANSWERED. For example, i asked LT if he will look at the Quran to run a country. I havent got any reply. Its amazing. By the way, this question is open for all of you "quran is anti-democratic" supporters.
Every society requires rules and regulations. In democracy the rules are devised by the people themselves and therefore you can't have DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS and DEMOCRACY...
But you Jaxal are happy to ignore DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS
and thats fine and we can get on with democracy -)Regards,
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SaLaM LT
LT LT how many times do i have to tell you that no one here is ignoring the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW . You look at the Quran as if its a book on "Running a country for Dummies". ITS NOT.
So im back to the original question to you LT
If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?
And no, dont take your time with the answer.... old chap wink
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
I would like to discuss the matter of selection with you and MQuran wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen.
Hope to have this discussion in near future. I pray Allah Taala grant you lots of patience but you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.
The reason any disagreement exists in this case is because Al-quraan isn't allowed to take its place as the arbiter. How many times has Joe asked for evidence without avail ? What does that tell you?
The sad truth is, many of us are intoxicated with the beautiful slogans of 'democracy', 'human rights', 'tolerance' etc etc without realising that the words are meaningless unless one has power. Thanks to occidentosis, we percieve the acquisition of power as vulgar and allow ourselves to be ruled by al-kafireen.
Its best to leave those who don't want to be judged by the book of Allah, KGB.