Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Peace to you PM,
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i.Interesting. So a reliance on Allah for a criteria is short-sighted? Honestly , I am amazed at how 'muslims' can say this? In my opinion, your view simply shows a lack of familiarity with the book and its concepts, but that's just my opinion. peace.
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SaLaM
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
HAHAHA rotfl is that the only rule in your society?? Lashing??
Thats one of the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS in the QURAN but there are also laws on murder and inheritance etc... Jaxal - but obiviously you can ignore all the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS wink and say QURAN promotes democracy - where human make the LAWS... wink
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
where human make the LAWS... wink
Becoz the Quran is not a book of laws wink hence why humans have to make the laws ... old chap wink
So rules on murder, adultery, inheritance they are not laws?
What are they? mere textual cosmetics to embillish the holy scirpture?Regards,
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Peace,
I've no idea where Jaxal's thoughts are. I see he does not understand what LoteTree is getting at.
MQ, I too think that PM may not be too familiar with the concepts of al-kitab.
] Who is the messenger today
He would be that one who embodies the quranic principles.
2] Who were the messenger in the last 1400 years that governed their kingdom under laws strictly from the Quran
Who these individuals were I do not know. They would embody the principles of the kitab.
It's like asking me who are the other rusul besides those mentioned by Allah. I do not know this portion of the unseen. You will only witness the rasool during your time.
All of the rasool mentioned in the book are personalities which embody the station. It's like seeing the inside portion of a gem from its different angles.
Joe
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But Allah doesnt mention any more of them to come after prophet Mohammed?.
Of course not!
Is that so? Quranic verses please?
How much of a guidance would such a declaration be that Allah will send Joseph in the future or any man by any name?
What you are looking for is nonesensical.Well, God did mention the arrival of prophet Mohammed in gospel. is that nonsesnsical? Now, I wouldnt do that.
And heres some good reading
http//www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.htmlAnd Allah also says He has 'perfected' the religion <cut>
Yes Allah has said this. This does not mean that the very same din that was promulgated before by Allah and His rusul were incomplete. He has perfected it as it has been perfected before.
Looks like u r contradicting Allah's statement here. Has He said that He perfected the religion before Quran in any previous scriptures? Perfecting something means the absolute best.
and completed His favour on mankind which would also imply that mankind is now expected to take up the responsibility of upholding Allah's values by themselves.
You are making wrong assumptions and are not taking the quranic principles into account. People have always been expected to take such responsibility .
what assumptions am I making?
Are u not the one assuming that there are more messengers to come to govern mankind in the Quranic way and we should wait around for them?so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
You did ask my opinion did you not?
no, i asked u if it was a fact stated in the Quran.
And u have agreed it is just ur opinion in the matter and not a fact stated in the Quran.So I gave you my opinion. Let's not resort to ill-founded tactics.
Peace Nabi! No ill founded tactics here. I merely stated what u said.
there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
This does not mean that no more rusul will come! You still have not shown me where Allah said He will stop the sending of rusul. You're adopting the practice of al-kafireen who deny any more rusul will come after the one's thay have heard of.
A very nonsensical use of Allah verse!(the Al-kafirin one)
I acknowledge 'seal of the prophets' and 'prefected the religion' and ' completed my favour'.
So, that indicates a stop.
Like I said anything can happen. God can send more prophets or may not send any. He makes those decissions according to His will. He knows it all. I do not know the future nor do u. He does. He for sure has not told us to wait around for prophets in His last message, to govern mankind.
Allah is the most supreme and all wise.Currently, I have no rusul to accept or reject so its pointless to say that I should accept a non exsistent Nabi.
It is you who have adopted the belief that no more rusul are to be sent. You say Allah will send no more because you have not come across any ayatin stating specific rusul to be looking for and because He does not say that He will send more rusul. So I ask you to show me where Allah has said that He will stop sending rusul.
Nabi, there is no point ranting the same over and over.
I gave u 2 verses but u do not acknowledge them.
When i asked u to give me one verse that said Allah will send more prophets after Prophet Mohammed, u failed to do so.so, the apostles would indicate them.We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
So Allah is mentioning past rusul and then says "O rusul"? Please explain how you come to the conclusion that God is speaking to past rusul? Why is He telling those who have already passed away to do certain things?
u quote 251. Allah has been talking of Moses and jesus and other pasr apostles in the verses 244- 250. in 251, i find Allah adressing Prophet Mohammed who has joined the rank of the other apostles who came before Him.
I ask again, please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of?
if indeed Allah decides to send a messenger, it will be very evident.
when Prophet Mohammed came, there were clear signs. Allah also challenged mankind then, to produce any verse like Quran.
so, whatever the sign be, it will be very clear and evident. and So will the message from God. The real purpose of the messenger is only to convey the message of God.Ok, Now that i have answered all ur questions, here's something u should give a thought to.
u said we need messengers to govern mankind from time to time and we cant do without them. where in Quran does Allah say that? Infact some of the messengersof the past(like jesus) didnt govern their people.they only conveyed the message from God.
so, why would u think that?
And, theres no point going on and on about the same thing.
I entered this dicussion in page 11. we are still at square one.
I ask why do we need messengers to govern mankind justly, coz Allah never said any such thing that only mesengers are capable of governing mankind.Anyways, as I said this is just pointless and I see no sense in going on again and again saying the same thing.
Peace to u!
May Allah increase our wisdom and knowledge! -
Hi Nabi,
MQ, I too think that PM may not be too familiar with the concepts of al-kitab.
that is a cheap retreat!
But who cares?
u obviously think u r the most wise and most knowledegable. Believe what u want! )
looks like i wasted my time after all. i thought i was discussing with a human being and not a being who knew it all.
The way i see it, u dont have any answers or any facts to prove ur claims.
And ur arrogance is evident as well when u say u r more familiar with the book than me or anyone else!
Peace Guy.
Believe what u want.
I am not here to say I am great. So, I would not join the parade. -
PMthat is a cheap retreat!
But who cares?
u obviously think u r the most wise and most knowledegable. Believe what u want!
looks like i wasted my time after all. i thought i was discussing with a human being and not a being who knew it all.
The way i see it, u dont have any answers or any facts to prove ur claims.
And ur arrogance is evident as well when u say u r more familiar with the book than me or anyone else!This is not a question of flexing one's knowledge muscles. Its a question PROVIDING EVIDENCE. What is the point of us being in this forum if we don't centralise al-quraan?
Do you not believe in al-quraan , PM ? If you do, then why not accept what it says the sunna of Allah doesn't change and so messengers will keep coming.
Take a look at this.And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of God, and among you is the Apostle? Whoever holds firmly to God will be shown a way that is straight.
(3/101)So is it ok for us to be kafireen now since no messengers are around?
Al-quraan is the kind of book where, if your understanding is wrong, it will contradict other ayaat. Your historiographical view of messengership contradicts many verses of al-quraan.
I guess at the end of the day, some people have not escaped sunnism. They still carry the epistemological weight sunnism burdens them with. Al-quraan sadly (for them, that is) repudiates this manner of thinking. It's about OUR LIVES. Only al-kafireen think its a book of history
When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "TALES OF THE ANCIENTS!"....
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Peace to you PM,
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i.Interesting. So a reliance on Allah for a criteria is short-sighted? Honestly , I am amazed at how 'muslims' can say this? In my opinion, your view simply shows a lack of familiarity with the book and its concepts, but that's just my opinion. peace.
I said ''not seeing that all forms of goodness, wisdom and knowledge outside Quran is also from Allah'' is shortsightedness.
And i am amazed how a Muslim who claims, is a strict believer and follower of Quran can do that and be so blind? and also resort to arrogance every now and then?and believes he knows it all?
whew!wasnt this how we are not supposed to be? -
Joe It's like asking me who are the other rusul besides those mentioned by Allah. I do not know this portion of the unseen. You will only witness the rasool during your time.
I don't understand what the obession is with history. The people who continuously seek stories are people who DO NOT BELIEVE in the last day (6/112-113).
Al-quraan is doubly clear on this
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.
What happens to those who INSIST on questioning information they can't possibly know
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.(5/101-102)
Its really strange to me that ppl who claim to be muslims who don't listen to the ayaat of Allah. oh well....
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Shanti LT,
So rules on murder, adultery, inheritance they are not laws?
What are they? mere textual cosmetics to embillish the holy scirptureYou told me not to waste time with this guy and now you're doing it yourself. You don't want to be in danger of being a verbal cough cough Best to discuss with those actually IN a discussion )
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SaLaM
I think this discussion would be more productive if people stopped cheap remarks weather whose thoughts are where and who understands what. If you cannot handle a discussion where your point seems absurd then perhaps you are in the wrong forum. Now if you are all done making macho stance, we can get back to topic without the pathetic remarks being made by some members. The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the Quran -
Jaxal,
by the looks of it ' they dont have any answers to prove their claim.' and are ranting the same over and over.
so, no point in the discussion at all.You told me not to waste time with this guy and now you're doing it yourself. You don't want to be in danger of being a verbal cough cough Best to discuss with those actually IN a discussion
mquran seems to be looking for guys who go 'o, yeah! u r right. u know it all'
and isnt really interested in any discussion.
and if u r not that guy, know what? u know nothing! -
PMI said ''not seeing that all forms of goodness, wisdom and knowledge outside Quran is also from Allah'' is shortsightedness.
And i am amazed how a Muslim who claims, is a strict believer and follower of Quran can do that and be so blind? and also resort to arrogance every now and then?and believes he knows it all?
whew!wasnt this how we are not supposed to beI know what you're saying PM. The problem is, there's only one CRITERIA. You can bring all sorts of snippets of wisdom, if al-furqaan rejects it, its not real. It's cool if you don't believe this. Just makes it harder to discuss, thats all.
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PMI said ''not seeing that all forms of goodness, wisdom and knowledge outside Quran is also from Allah'' is shortsightedness.
And i am amazed how a Muslim who claims, is a strict believer and follower of Quran can do that and be so blind? and also resort to arrogance every now and then?and believes he knows it all?
whew!wasnt this how we are not supposed to beI know what you're saying PM. The problem is, there's only one CRITERIA. You can bring all sorts of snippets of wisdom, if al-furqaan rejects it, its not real. It's cool if you don't believe this. Just makes it harder to discuss, thats all.
do i sense some humility in here even though we differ!
i am glad!
peace! -
mquran seems to be looking for guys who go 'o, yeah! u r right. u know it all'
and isnt really interested in any discussion.
and if u r not that guy, know what? u know nothingFalse. Im looking for people who BRING VERSES TO DISCUSSION. I'm a student of al-quraan and to me, if a discussion is to have ANY CURRENCY, it must be provided EVIDENCE from the book )
So far, none of you democrat guys can bring a single verse. Not one single verse. This is a great indicator of your confirmity with al-quraan. If you guys don't care what al-quraan says, that's fine. But at least have the decency to admit 'I dont care what God says, my post-modernist gurus ala Fukuyama is more right'. Just say it and it's cool. But if you keep saying al-quraan teaches democracy and fail to bring a verse, wouldn't that qualify as 'utter nonsense'?
Bring your evidence. Give the book of Allah the reverence it deserves.
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do i sense some humility in here even though we differ!
i am glad!I'm cool with differences because whatever you believe in, it's not going to a thing for me on the day when it counts. I'm not cool with wasting time, though. I'm appealing for you to provide evidence. Ayaat from al-quraan telling us democracy is Quranic.
Democracy a system whereby human beings are given unlimited legislative power.
Al-islaam submission or being peaceable to God though his laws. (see 17/23-39 about the definition of ilah). Therefore, can a muslim legislate outside God's laws????? Further, asking approval from people who REJECT Allah????
My god man, its so simple and clear.
Either you choose humankind as your ilah or you choose Allah. Thats what it boils down to.
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SaLaM PM
Jaxal,
by the looks of it ' they dont have any answers to prove their claim.' and are ranting the same over and over.
so, no point in the discussion at all.It always ends up in ranting and raving when nothing useful is said. Some members, like mquran for example, have extensive experiance in doing this. As truth said, barking dogs are only annoying if you choose to listen to them. So ignore the barking dogs, like i have . The problem is, they think by adding an 'al' before every wrod or using arabic phrases fron quran makes them more knowledgable than others. Well... whatever makes them sleep easy wink . Ive seen this tactics before, when i was a sunni. The best solution is, stick to the questions and keep repeating it until they cant run anywhere with the 'ranting and raving'.
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Salaam Guys,
Hey so much hatred going on!!!!
But We must have clear proofs from Al-Quraan if we claim something or else it's only your opinion, right!?
Slow down your emotions and take some fresh air
Peace Sis Maria