Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi

Jaxal

SaLaM

I think this discussion would be more productive if people stopped cheap remarks weather whose thoughts are where and who understands what. If you cannot handle a discussion where your point seems absurd then perhaps you are in the wrong forum. Now if you are all done making macho stance, we can get back to topic without the pathetic remarks being made by some members. The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp

1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the Quran

unknownuser

Jaxal,
by the looks of it ' they dont have any answers to prove their claim.' and are ranting the same over and over.
so, no point in the discussion at all.

You told me not to waste time with this guy and now you're doing it yourself. You don't want to be in danger of being a verbal cough cough Best to discuss with those actually IN a discussion

mquran seems to be looking for guys who go 'o, yeah! u r right. u know it all'
and isnt really interested in any discussion.
and if u r not that guy, know what? u know nothing!

mquran

PMI said ''not seeing that all forms of goodness, wisdom and knowledge outside Quran is also from Allah'' is shortsightedness.
And i am amazed how a Muslim who claims, is a strict believer and follower of Quran can do that and be so blind? and also resort to arrogance every now and then?and believes he knows it all?
whew!wasnt this how we are not supposed to be

I know what you're saying PM. The problem is, there's only one CRITERIA. You can bring all sorts of snippets of wisdom, if al-furqaan rejects it, its not real. It's cool if you don't believe this. Just makes it harder to discuss, thats all.

unknownuser

PMI said ''not seeing that all forms of goodness, wisdom and knowledge outside Quran is also from Allah'' is shortsightedness.
And i am amazed how a Muslim who claims, is a strict believer and follower of Quran can do that and be so blind? and also resort to arrogance every now and then?and believes he knows it all?
whew!wasnt this how we are not supposed to be

I know what you're saying PM. The problem is, there's only one CRITERIA. You can bring all sorts of snippets of wisdom, if al-furqaan rejects it, its not real. It's cool if you don't believe this. Just makes it harder to discuss, thats all.

do i sense some humility in here even though we differ!
i am glad!
peace!

mquran

mquran seems to be looking for guys who go 'o, yeah! u r right. u know it all'
and isnt really interested in any discussion.
and if u r not that guy, know what? u know nothing

False. Im looking for people who BRING VERSES TO DISCUSSION. I'm a student of al-quraan and to me, if a discussion is to have ANY CURRENCY, it must be provided EVIDENCE from the book )

So far, none of you democrat guys can bring a single verse. Not one single verse. This is a great indicator of your confirmity with al-quraan. If you guys don't care what al-quraan says, that's fine. But at least have the decency to admit 'I dont care what God says, my post-modernist gurus ala Fukuyama is more right'. Just say it and it's cool. But if you keep saying al-quraan teaches democracy and fail to bring a verse, wouldn't that qualify as 'utter nonsense'?

Bring your evidence. Give the book of Allah the reverence it deserves.

mquran

do i sense some humility in here even though we differ!
i am glad!

I'm cool with differences because whatever you believe in, it's not going to a thing for me on the day when it counts. I'm not cool with wasting time, though. I'm appealing for you to provide evidence. Ayaat from al-quraan telling us democracy is Quranic.

Democracy a system whereby human beings are given unlimited legislative power.

Al-islaam submission or being peaceable to God though his laws. (see 17/23-39 about the definition of ilah). Therefore, can a muslim legislate outside God's laws????? Further, asking approval from people who REJECT Allah????

My god man, its so simple and clear.

Either you choose humankind as your ilah or you choose Allah. Thats what it boils down to.

Jaxal

SaLaM PM

Jaxal,
by the looks of it ' they dont have any answers to prove their claim.' and are ranting the same over and over.
so, no point in the discussion at all.

It always ends up in ranting and raving when nothing useful is said. Some members, like mquran for example, have extensive experiance in doing this. As truth said, barking dogs are only annoying if you choose to listen to them. So ignore the barking dogs, like i have . The problem is, they think by adding an 'al' before every wrod or using arabic phrases fron quran makes them more knowledgable than others. Well... whatever makes them sleep easy wink . Ive seen this tactics before, when i was a sunni. The best solution is, stick to the questions and keep repeating it until they cant run anywhere with the 'ranting and raving'.

SwedenMajidah

Salaam Guys,

Hey so much hatred going on!!!!

But We must have clear proofs from Al-Quraan if we claim something or else it's only your opinion, right!?

Slow down your emotions and take some fresh air

Peace Sis Maria

Jaxal

SaLaM SM

Good to see you on the form again sis. The quran is very clear on this subject. Obey those who are given the authority. That is it. Quran teachs us to be repectful, peaceful, tolerent and so much more. The Quran is a book of guidence. Not how to run a country. That is a fact. So it really is amazing how people get the idea that somhow, someway, the Quran can show us how to run a country or tell us how the politics of the country are going to be.

unknownuser

Hi Sis Majidah,
welcome back!
there is no hatred. some arrogane now an thn.

If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying he had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.

It does not need to be mentioned that more rusul will come because Allah has not said that He is stopping them from coming.
Even if you take khatem to mean seal, you must understand that a seal can be popped.

Yes, the seal can be popped up. Infact anything can happen. We do not know what is to to come in future. Only Allah knows coz its He who decides and makes things happen.
But yes, We are not expected to wait around for a messenger to govern people coz Allah didnt tell us to do so. So, We ought to go on and do our best to uphold the values of goodness, righteousness, justice etc which Allah has asked us to do.

so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?

In my opinion yes, there will be more.

so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!

and look what i get

MQ, I too think that PM may not be too familiar with the concepts of al-kitab.

is he making a judgement there? and he clearly said it was his opinion.

anyways, i am gonna let it go coz am not here to say i am great. and i wont join the parade if people wanna do that.
peace!
And Nabi. peace to u too. no offence meant. )

SwedenMajidah

Salaam Br Jaxal and Sis PM,

Thanks for welcome me back

Jaxal I can't say to you that it isn't in Quran about politics because I haven't studied that yet.But I have heard long time back that Br Layth talked about politics in Quran.

And why shouldn't it be possible to create a society based on Quran?I mean if we look for all things about how to act and how to judge in different matter we can create an Islamic state.

I agree that Quran is a guideline and a Book of wisdom but you can find a lot of food for thought in there if you lay down some energy.

PM Well of course we can see things from different angles but don't you agree after all that we can't just claim something and don't reffer to Quran. Where in Quran is democracy mention!?

Peace Sis Majidah

Jaxal

SaLaM SM

A society cannot be based on Quran becoz the Quran wasnt meant to run a society. It was meant to guide. one cannot pick up a maths book and learn physics. one cannot pick up a biology book and learn about chemistery. one cannot pick up romeo and juliet and learn about war. And one cannot pick up the Quran and learn how to run a country.

savage_carrot

Peace Jaxal,

A society cannot be based on Quran becoz the Quran wasnt meant to run a society. It was meant to guide. one cannot pick up a maths book and learn physics. one cannot pick up a biology book and learn about chemistery. one cannot pick up romeo and juliet and learn about war. And one cannot pick up the Quran and learn how to run a country.

Physics has a lot of math involved, your biology depends on factors such as chemistry and romeo & juliet has gang warfare in it (rival factions). Thus, I leave you to your conclusions about the quran and running a country, if they are anything like your examples, you know where its going hopefully.

unknownuser

Hi Sweden Majidah,

PM Well of course we can see things from different angles but don't you agree after all that we can't just claim something and don't reffer to Quran. Where in Quran is democracy mention!?

Yes, We can see from differnt angles. But I just pointed out that there is no evidence in Quran that We ought to wait around for messengers to govern mankind or only messengers can and should govern mankind, which apparently are the views of Mquran and the likes.
Infact messengers like Jesus did not take up the responsibility of governing mankind.

(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.
Exerpts fromhttp//www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.html

During Prophet Mohammed's period, there was absolute chaos and injustice among mankind. And that is why those specific rules were given, emphasising to the people that acts such as theft, adultery, murder, dishonesty, rape etc are sinful and need to be punished.
so if u see, the purpose was to bring law and order, in accordance to the conditions that exsisted then!

DemocracyIf u r saying that Allah says in Quran that democracy where an elected represntative is chosen, is wrong, please enlighten me with the verses. If Allah has not mentioned it specifically to be wrong and sinful, are we assuming that it is?
And Allah has not mentioned in Quran, that yoga is good or meditation is good or drinking 8 glasses of water a day is good. Does that make these acts bad and sinful as well?Allah tells us in Quran to strive for knowledge and wisdom. We can not expect to be spoonfed with everything.
The point I am trying to make is that we are asked to uphold the values and at the end of the day, that is what matters.
The whole point is to uphold the values with adequate rules and regulations. The purpose is what that matters. The purpose 'being to be good, righteous, just, humble, good, non violent, honest human beings.
its not important if u go left or go right. its important that u reach the destination.
Peace!

Jaxal

SaLaM SC

Physics has a lot of math involved, your biology depends on factors such as chemistry and romeo & juliet has gang warfare in it (rival factions).

So if i ask you to learn Maths, you will pick up a Physics book?
And if i ask you to learn Biology, you will pick up a Chemistry book?
And if i ask you to learn about warfare, you will pick up a Romeo and Juliet?

Simple questions where a simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

savage_carrot

Peace Jaxal,

So if i ask you to learn Maths, you will pick up a Physics book?
And if i ask you to learn Biology, you will pick up a Chemistry book?
And if i ask you to learn about warfare, you will pick up a Romeo and Juliet?

Simple questions where a simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

Learn to start thinking in shades of grey, this black and white view of the world is not realistic or practical, it is fragmented. Everything blends into each other, math is not devoid of applications in the real world, or the theoretical. It blends into life in so many aspects if not all, likewise for the others.

unknownuser

Becoz the Quran is not a book of laws hence why humans have to make the laws ... old chap

So rules on murder, adultery, inheritance they are not laws?
What are they? mere textual cosmetics to embillish the holy scirpture?

LT even you are smart enough to know that a society cannot run on JUST laws on murder adultry and inheritance... old chap

Jaxal look what you have said before and now see what you are saying?

First Quran is not a book of Laws and now you can't run a society on LAWS on murder, adultery and inheritance....

So young man - what can I say to you?

Shall I list more quranic LAWS? Murder, Adultery, theft, marriage, divorce, property, trade, rights of orphans...shall I go on?

Regards,

unknownuser

Shanti LT,

So rules on murder, adultery, inheritance they are not laws?
What are they? mere textual cosmetics to embillish the holy scirpture

You told me not to waste time with this guy and now you're doing it yourself.

With due respects to you mquran, I did not use those words exactly (I have the transcript of our conversations). You raised the point that Jaxal was annoying you. I merely commented that when other people are not responding to your questions directly, sometimes it is best to leave them alone and not get irate about it...

Regards,

unknownuser

So is it ok for us to be kafireen now since no messengers are around?
I guess at the end of the day, some people have not escaped sunnism. They still carry the epistemological weight sunnism burdens them with. Al-quraan sadly (for them, that is) repudiates this manner of thinking. It's about OUR LIVES. Only al-kafireen think its a book of history

And Mquran, its pretty lame to label people who disagree with u as kafirs.
try correcting urself coz u r not the best of mankind nor r u the judge.

And ur second escape seems to be throwing label of sunnism on people who disagree with u.
I understand Quran and the way i see it, Allah doesnt tell us to blindfold ourselves, or call each other names or act arrogant.
Peace!

Jaxal

SaLaM SC

Learn to start thinking in shades of grey, this black and white view of the world is not realistic or practical, it is fragmented. Everything blends into each other, math is not devoid of applications in the real world, or the theoretical. It blends into life in so many aspects if not all, likewise for the others.

To think in the shades of grey. I said that to someone once. Anyways, So your answer would be No. Thanks http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif

LT

So young man - what can I say to you?

You can say... "You know Jaxal.. even tho im being stubborn and everything.. i kinda see your point ... I khow you are right.. its just... i cant help being the way i am you know? It is a problem and I recognize that and i will work on it.. all i ask from you is that you be patient and TRY to put up with my wierd way... i know its too much to ask.... but i am finally being honest with myself and you about this... maybe i can learn a thing or two from you... oh an... KFC rocks... it really does... cry "

There... you think you can say that to me? loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooollllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Ok... moving on wink

Shall I list more quranic LAWS? Murder, Adultery, theft, marriage, divorce, property, trade, rights of orphans...shall I go on?

So i ask you once again, If i asked you to run a country, would you look at the Quran for a "how to guide on running a country for dummies" ?. You should be able to answer it with a 'Yes' or a 'No' now.... old chap wink