Iblis?
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Peace Ahmed Bahgat,
Salam Mate,
From all the above we can conclude the following
- Jinns were created before Humans
- Jinns inhibited earth before Humans
So were the controllers/"malaika".
I do not know, as Allah did not say the malaika were created with freewill
As well I careless to know, but it is enough to know that the humans are higher than the malaika because they have freewill while they don?t
- Jinns are created from Fire
- Iblis is created from Fire
- Iblis is a Jinn as the Quran explicitly stated as well he became a Shaitan when he disobeyed Allah, the Quran in numerous times referred to Iblis as ?Shaitan? which is the opposite of the Angels
Humans are called "shaitan" (exceeding in rebellion) too NOT just "jinn" (see 6112).
I agree, but noit any human, only the bad guys are called Shaitan, like the terroristys for example
However that is just a nickname, Iblis was a Jinn nicknamed Shaitan
- Iblis was never called explicitly an angel, but he was up there for some reason when Adam was created
And the reason is given in passages such as 234 "We said to the controllers/"malaika" obey "adam" so they obeyed except "iblis"".
well, I can take it as any of the following possibilities
- Allah ordered Iblis to prostrate in another event that is later on to the angel ones
- Allah made Iblis to think (fooled him) that iblis became an angel and the order was given to all in the vicinity as him being an angel virtually but not for real, bear in mind that Allah was fooling Iblis, this is evident from the Quran when Iblis said
39- (Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40- "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41 (Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42 "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."(39)
(40)
(41)
(42)The Arabic word ?Aghwaitani? does not mean ?put me in the wrong? rather it means ?TO FOOL?, so verse 1539 should be literally and briefly as follow
?Iblis said God as you fooled me I will fool them all
and the same word was used in verse 1542 to describe the ones who will follow Iblis as ?Ghaween? ?Fools?
- Jinns and Humans have freewill and are required to use their freewill to worship Allah, NO OTHER CREATURE HAVE FREEWILL (INCLUDING THE ANGELS, THE HEAVEN AND EARTH)
This is false because according to 3372, everything had the freedom to CHOOSE whether to accept the trust or not.
Mate, I?m sorry before you accuse me of being wrong I would love that you support your claim, while you did by posting a reference to a Quran verse without any elaboration by you
So let me elaborate and prove to you that I was right, not sure if you are wrfong or not really, I?m talking about what I know according to the Quran that I studied well Alahamdullellah and still studying it, here is the verse
YUSUFALI We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-
PICKTHAL Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
SHAKIR Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;
(72)
-> where exactly that it says everything have freewill?, let?s look at Yusuf Ali translation ? We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-?, what is wrong here bro?, it says clearly that the Trust to the (HEAVENS, THE EARTH AND THE MOUNTAIN) was offered and the declined to undertake it
firstly the verse does not say everything only three things mentioned, while I agree that the heaven and earth cover a lot of things, but it does not cover humans, jinn, and animals
secondly, what is trust mentioned in the verse?, the ?? pronounced ?Al Amana?, It is simply to have a freewill and be held accountable, the Quran describe our failure to carry the ?Amana? in the following verse?We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot and We found on his part no firm resolve.?
(115)
-> This Amana that was declined by the heavens and earth and mountains means that since that moment they have no freewill, this sound really true, I can see the same stars every day, I can also see the sun every day, possibly the sun may want to have a date with another star like Sirius for example?, just kiddin mate , but truly it seems that the Sun and the moon have no freewill, or what do you think?, well the Quran actually told us about an event when after Amana was offered to the heavens and Earth, let?s look at it
?Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.?
(11)
-> You see, after Allah created the heaven and earth and they declined the Amana they were told to stay on course willingly or unwillingly, they preferred to come stay on course willingly, while a human like me and you can go astray with our freewill that was given to us, that Amana that Adam carried
The Angels were aware of the blood shedding and mischief that will be committed by humans before Adam was created while they can?t know the future
How do you know that they can't know the future? From the passage, it seems that they confidently know the future. In fact, like the controllers/"malaika" "iblis" seem to confidently know the future in 717. On the other hand, humans don't know the future. The "jinn" seems to have been previously able to listen to the information in the heavens but not anymore (see 729).
Again I can?t see anything in the Arabic verse that suggest the slightest that Iblis seems confident that he knows the future, the verse does not even suggest that he knows the future while not being confident, the verse does not say what you suggested at all, it simply says that Iblis will attack the humans from all directions
?"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies).?
(17)
The Quran actually told us that the Jinn can?t know the unseen
?Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).?
(14)
-> I.E. The Jinn failed to know that Soloman is dead for long time, while they thought was was still alive a leaning on his staff
- Iblis experienced his freewill and refused to prostrate while the Malaika did not have freewill and ALL OF THEM PROSTRATED, ALLAH EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THE MALAIKA NEVER DISOBAY
ALLAH IN AT LEAST TWO LOCATIONS.
The question is do they not disobey The God because they are controllers/"malaika" or are they malaika/controllers because they don't disobey The God? I hope that you can see the difference.
they diod not disobey God because they have no freewill and MUST OBEY ALL THE TIME, Iblis had a freewill to decline
didn?t you ask yourself if they know that Adam will shed blood and cause mischief why the prostrated to him then?, because they have no choice
at least if they declined to prostrate using their good argument that humans will shed blood and cause mischief on earth it would have merit than Iblis argument that he is better than Adam because he was created from fire
- Iblis was raised to the heaven after Allah fooled him due to his hypocrisy in the belief.
From the description given in 230. it seems that all the controllers/"malaika" were being tested NOT fooled.
The malaika CAN NOT BE TESTED, they have no freewill
Make sense?
They were arguing and questioning The God's decision (hardly the attitude of some mechanical thing with no freedom of shoice).
where you got that they argued from?, they only wondered and because Allah is the Most fair and Just He allowed them to question Him, exactly as he allowed Iblis to Question God, as you can Question God, but you have freewill to submit like Iblis and like me, the Malaika has no free will and has to submit all the time, that does not mean they are not allowed to ask a question though
Next after the arguing they were asked to obey the creature who they saw committing atrocities in the future. So this was clearly not an easy test.
well again you interpretation is very flawed they were asked to prostrate not to obey Adam, but how the angels can see the future?, they said they know nothing except what Allah told them 232
- Allah made him think that he became an angel while his true nature of creation stayed the same, possibly Allah made Iblis just of a good look for example, but his soul stayed the same, that should be easy on Allah, isn?t it?. The malaika may also thought that Iblis became one of them, why not? It is quite possible if they have no knowledge except what Allah told them 232
The God can give control/"mlk" to whomever He wills and take it back from whomever He wills according to 326.
He can give it to "iblis" and take it from him. He can give it to any other controller/"malak" and take it away as He wills. The God's hands are not tied. 326 makes it clear that "malaika"/controllers is a status an NOT some kind of mythical creatures flying around in white robes and halos over their head. I think that people are still stuck with this mythical image and hence cannot grasp the clear fact that "malaika" is a status not a seperate creature. This status can be given to anyone by The God and taken away from any malak/controller by The God.
So my question is do you believe there is a physical entity called Malaika? (yes /No)
I do not mean status
Not too many assumptions for sure, just a couple,
Most of your above conclusions have wrong assumptions as was demonstrated. I think correcting those assumptions will make your conclusions more solid.
well I say most of the information you have and the Quran understanding you showed is very flawed, sorry
but that is far comprehendible than to think Iblis was a Malak all the way which contradicts the Quran big times, as well to think that his status has changed from a Jinn to a Malak then back to a Jinn is funny and does not make sense, it is like the Christian concept when they say god changes his status between three different entities each has its unique properties,
Comparing God to any other creature (mythical or not) is a false analogy by any measure.
of course
?He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord.?, i.e. when Iblis broke the command to prostrate, he was one of the Jinns, very clear indeed.
He has always been a "jinn" and continues to be so. When he disobeyed, he simply lost his status of controller/"malak" and returned to simply being a regular "jinn" as opposed to a "jinn" who is given the status of controller/"malak" by The God.
that is fine that is exactly what I?m talking about he was given a status of malaika, did you read this in my comment or not
anyway do you believe that Angels is just a status or a physical entity like me and you?
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Sure everything helps
Peace
ahmed
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Peace,
These threads might help further...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1914&start=0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2147&start=25
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Peace be upon you all,
I think that the statement Ayman made needs to be repeated, we have to stop looking at this story as being about some magical creatures flying around. The usage of the word "angel" is evidence of this mindset. The word used is "malaika" which comes from the root of M-L-K (control). The first step towards proper understanding is to stop using the word "angel".
Another thing I wanted to point out, the God is not some old man up high waiting for people to "disobey" so "He" can punish them. LAWS have been put in place so that one reaps what one sows. So when we read that Iblis "disobeyed" why do we assume that it was "free will"? Do you really think God, excuse me, the ALL KNOWING has questions?
"Why did you not prostrate Iblis"? No No No, the God is not some object who is in need of answers, this is just a story that MUST NOT be taken so literally. We have to seek the message, what is the guidance?
Iblis was created to be the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE. Its like asking the weights , "why are you not prostrating to this man trying to lift 350 lbs?"
But it is necessary to connect negative resistace with anger, obsession, etc to facilitate understanding about life. Itis the trials of life hat cause us to grow, just like lifting the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE of weights to grow muscles.
Si iblis, in the story is shown to be argumantative, arrogant, etc to tie this all in, do not take this all literal.
The "question" from the God in the STORY is only for us to open up our receptivity to what follows about he nature of NEGATIVE RESISTANCE.We must embrace this resistance with the understanding that it helps us grow, just like Solomon did, if we understand and use it properly, otherwise it is our enemy that will take us down. Not some red monster with a pitch fork, but negative resistance, like letting the weight fall on us.
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Peace be upon you all,
I think that the statement Ayman made needs to be repeated, we have to stop looking at this story as being about some magical creatures flying around. The usage of the word "angel" is evidence of this mindset. The word used is "malaika" which comes from the root of M-L-K (control). The first step towards proper understanding is to stop using the word "angel".
Another thing I wanted to point out, the God is not some old man up high waiting for people to "disobey" so "He" can punish them. LAWS have been put in place so that one reaps what one sows. So when we read that Iblis "disobeyed" why do we assume that it was "free will"? Do you really think God, excuse me, the ALL KNOWING has questions?
"Why did you not prostrate Iblis"? No No No, the God is not some object who is in need of answers, this is just a story that MUST NOT be taken so literally. We have to seek the message, what is the guidance?
Iblis was created to be the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE. Its like asking the weights , "why are you not prostrating to this man trying to lift 350 lbs?"
But it is necessary to connect negative resistace with anger, obsession, etc to facilitate understanding about life. Itis the trials of life hat cause us to grow, just like lifting the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE of weights to grow muscles.
Si iblis, in the story is shown to be argumantative, arrogant, etc to tie this all in, do not take this all literal.
The "question" from the God in the STORY is only for us to open up our receptivity to what follows about he nature of NEGATIVE RESISTANCE.We must embrace this resistance with the understanding that it helps us grow, just like Solomon did, if we understand and use it properly, otherwise it is our enemy that will take us down. Not some red monster with a pitch fork, but negative resistance, like letting the weight fall on us.
Peace Kyle,
I've posted previously on this episode that occurs with Iblis and is repeated in many places. That the "conversation" described has nothing to do with reality - that there is no need for words to be spoken out as it might appear.
People have a very anthropised view of this - almost like a scene where thousands of mythical beings are assembled and an actual dialogue takes place.
The description only conveys a sense of the message - it by no means represents the reality of needing a mouth and speaking words nor listening with ears etc.
That's the mistake many are making here. They are arguing ad-infinitum about physical prostrations, what the precise conversation was - who said what first etc. completely missing the point.
They're punching froth and creating foam.
Peace/
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Peace
The lesson is very understood from the story, but that does not make it a symbol and never happened for real
surely the possibilty that it happened for real exist
so we can't be called mistaken from others who look at it differently, because logically speaking you too will be considered making a mistake from our perspective, also as far as my knowledge go, Adam and Eve lived 40 years in paradise before this incodent happened, while this is a hearsay, again we just can't know and accuse others of being mistaken
also if the message of this symbol of evil to watch for has started from the OT (was read there first), then the people from Adam to almost Moses never heard of that story and never been givin that lesson, it just does not sum up
The Malaika are also for real, Allah described them in great details, yes Ma la Ka is to control, but what is the point arn;t the malaika control a lot of things?
you see when Allah is giving us a similtitude He tells us here is a similtitude, with the story of Adam and Iblis, this was never the case while it was repeated numerous times
also it has to happen for real so Adam can realize the danger, you have to be in it to really feel it, if just been told then the lesson is not strong enough in any a high meassure, bearing in mind that is the main message that will start with adam who will transfer it to his first children strongly due to what he has been through for real
I can eassily refute the sunni sect using the Quran and will leave them speechless and I can also refute the Quran alone sect using the Quran and leave them speechless as well, it is all relative indeed
the absolute right and wrong is only in Allah's hand
peace
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace
The lesson is very understood from the story, but that does not make it a symbol and never happened for real
surely the possibilty that it happened for real exist
What I am saying Ahmed is not questioning whether it really happened. I am saying that the way it is described is only framed like that so that we as humans may understand.
There is no way that Adam (thought of as a man) saw God and an assembly of angels and a character by the title of Iblis all in front of him having a conversation like it is presented.
If you look at the actual words of the dialogue then you can see that there is more than one version of the dialogue. Why? Because no specific dialogue took place. The words chosen merely describe the situation in a way we understand.
so we can't be called mistaken from others who look at it differently, because logically speaking you too will be considered making a mistake from our perspective, also as far as my knowledge go, Adam and Eve lived 40 years in paradise before this incodent happened, while this is a hearsay, again we just can't know and accuse others of being mistaken
also if the message of this symbol of evil to watch for has started from the OT (was read there first), then the people from Adam to almost Moses never heard of that story and never been givin that lesson, it just does not sum up
While I'm not sure I understand this entirely I think you're saying that a similar situation is presented in the old testament. And the Jews and Christians are responsible for the anthropomorphisation of this scene. They depict God as an old bearded man, Satan as some evil looking being and angels with wings all in an assembly and envision that to have actually occurred.
Nothing of the sort happened. The story is therefore allegorical.
the absolute right and wrong is only in Allah's hand
See how you've given a good example.
When you say "Allah's hand" - you know that the God does not have a hand. You say it so that I may understand that you are saying it's in the God's control.
There is no 'hand' for real, but I understand what you mean by it. Thus the coversation is not for real, but you are able to get the message from it. The God has no "mouth" nor "ears" and no "voice box" etc. So the conversation is a stand in for some other process in which these things occurred.
When two computers are exchanging information through a wireless connection - neither of them is 'talking' and yet we may say that they are communicating with each other. I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at.
Regards.
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace bro
What I am saying Ahmed is not questioning whether it really happened. I am saying that the way it is described is only framed like that so that we as humans may understand.
well, if Allah is the one who is describing it I bet it was described in a non average way, but it was described in many locations, in none, Allah never infomed us that the story is a similtitude as He did with many similtitudes in the Quran
There is no way that Adam (thought of as a man) saw God and an assembly of angels and a character by the title of Iblis all in front of him having a conversation like it is presented.
I agree 100%, in fact I'm sure they only heard his voice coming from somewhere, Humans like Moses heard God talking so why not it happned with the rest up there
If you look at the actual words of the dialogue then you can see that there is more than one version of the dialogue. Why? Because no specific dialogue took place. The words chosen merely describe the situation in a way we understand.
Not really, this is the style of the Quran, the Quran talked about many other incidents with different words, it is to serve the purpose that the Quran explains itself, it can not be just repeating the same exact words to stress a specific message by Allah, it will look really silly as someone will be just trying to increase the number of pages in a book
it is also a challenge to the professional arabic speakers to recognise the Quran miracle in talking about the same thing with different arabic words many time
also when the Quran talks about an incident many times you will notice that new information can be obtained from the repetiton
While I'm not sure I understand this entirely I think you're saying that a similar situation is presented in the old testament. And the Jews and Christians are responsible for the anthropomorphisation of this scene. They depict God as an old bearded man, Satan as some evil looking being and angels with wings all in an assembly and envision that to have actually occurred.
Nothing of the sort happened. The story is therefore allegorical.ok, I have a verse from the Quran as an answer
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the Mala'ika, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
so the angels exist for real as creatures
the Jinns and Iblis exist for real as creatures, "Iblis" even is a name to one of the Jinn
humans exist for real and sure they all came from Adam
and finally Allah who created the above as He told us, exists for real
so why the repeated story is not real?
i would say you are going against the odds
the absolute right and wrong is only in Allah's hand
See how you've given a good example.
I don't need a good example, I have my brain to know what is good and what is wrong
When you say "Allah's hand" - you know that the God does not have a hand. You say it so that I may understand that you are saying it's in the God's control.
I agree hand can mean control and was used in the Quran to refer to Allah's control, but in the verse of Adam creation , Allah told us the He created Adam with His own hand "Yaddi", and it has to be understood as literal, no other possibilty can fit according to the arabic Quran
not to say His hand looks like our hand, rather I have no idea how it looks but i know he has hands as He told us
There is no 'hand' for real, but I understand what you mean by it. Thus the coversation is not for real, but you are able to get the message from it.
sorry, according to the arabic Quran, Allah has real hands and He used it to mold Adam into shape, it is what Allah said not me
The God has no "mouth" nor "ears"
I don't know about the mouth and ears, but I know that Allah talk, hear and see
and no "voice box" etc. So the conversation is a stand in for some other process in which these things occurred.
No, the Quran told us that Allah can talk to others from behind a barrier without the others seeing Him, would you like to see the verse?
When two computers are exchanging information through a wireless connection - neither of them is 'talking' and yet we may say that they are communicating with each other. I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at.Regards.
well I'm an MCSE so I know what you mean, however your guess is very wild and coradict the Quran
peace bro
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Peace Ahmed,
We have different understandings overall but there may still be something to gain by discussing a little more.
well, if Allah is the one who is describing it I bet it was described in a non average way, but it was described in many locations, in none, Allah never infomed us that the story is a similtitude as He did with many similtitudes in the Quran
Not everything is labelled a similitude. 37 informs us that there are clear and firm verses and then similar or interpretive verses and none but those grounded in knowledge understand them.
Therefore any verse that is not giving a clear directive for the God's system are similar or interpretive verses. The vast majority of the book is therefore of the 'mutashabih' type.
Verses like the Iblis episode are described in many ways with different dialogues thus these are clearly the similar verses.
I agree 100%, in fact I'm sure they only heard his voice coming from somewhere, Humans like Moses heard God talking so why not it happned with the rest up there
Again for example the dialogue that occurs in Chapter 20 while it looks like a conversation between the God and a man is not happenning in the usual sense. The message could be descending to his consciousness with nothing to be heard by a third party.
And look at 2830-35 which relates the same episode and lo and behold there is a different dialogue.
The reason is that neither one represents the communication that really took place because there were no words out loud. Nothing was 'heard' with the ears.
We can only get an idea of the interaction, but not know the actual dynamics of it. The same is true of many of the interactions involving the God and that includes the one with Adam, Iblis etc.
ok, I have a verse from the Quran as an answer
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the Mala'ika, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
so the angels exist for real as creatures
The verse you quote is interesting especially because the number of fundamental forces in nature are 4.
"Wing" in this sense can mean modality or mode of force/control. The electromagnetic, strong & weak nuclear forces, and gravitation.
the Jinns and Iblis exist for real as creatures, "Iblis" even is a name to one of the Jinn
humans exist for real and sure they all came from Adam
and finally Allah who created the above as He told us, exists for real
so why the repeated story is not real?
i would say you are going against the odds
"Iblis" cannot be a single creature or being. If you believe that is the case, then how do you believe he can influence 6 billion people at one time? Iblis/satan is the corrupt part of human nature to do evil. The part of humans that will mislead them rather than assist them in reaching the right path.
I agree hand can mean control and was used in the Quran to refer to Allah's control, but in the verse of Adam creation , Allah told us the He created Adam with His own hand "Yaddi", and it has to be understood as literal, no other possibilty can fit according to the arabic Quran
not to say His hand looks like our hand, rather I have no idea how it looks but i know he has hands as He told us
In this respect my thoughts lean positively towards the mutazilite school of thought...
As much as the absolute uniqueness of God, the Mu'tazila stress His absolute transcendence.
By this it is to be understood fundamentally that, for them, God is not a body, and therefore is
not to be attributed with any of the properties of a body, such as being localised, moving about,
having a form, etc. Two principal consequences are entailed. The first is that all
anthropomorphic representations of God are to be rejected; furthermore, any qur'anic
expression of this kind-the 'hands' of God, His 'eyes', His 'face', His 'side'-is to be
understood only in a figurative sense by the 'hand' of God, His blessing (ni'ma) is meant, by His
'eye', His knowledge (cf. Maqalat, 165, ll. 12-13; 195, ll. 13-15), by His 'side', His command
(amr) (ibid., 218, ll. 46), by His 'face', His very essence (ibid., 521, l. 16). The second consequence
is that God cannot be seen, in the literal sense of the term, either in this world or in the other,
since only a body can be seen, all vision operating through contact between a ray (shu'a') emitted
by the eye and the object that is seen (cf. 'Abd al-jabbar, al-Mugjni, iv, 57, ll. 10-11; al-juwayni,
al-Irshad, ed. Luciani, Paris 1938, 96, ll. 2-13). The qur'an, moreover, states explicitly of God that
'vision does not comprehend Him' (la tudrikuhu 'l-absaru, vi, 103).I respect that you may think differently, and again these are the similar verses we are discussing. It's best not to be dogmatic about them and accept that people can see them differently according to their different levels of understanding. Only the God knows what is meant.
Regards.
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Peace Ahmed,
No, the Quran told us that Allah can talk to others from behind a barrier without the others seeing Him, would you like to see the verse?
I do not think talking means that Allah talks as you may talk to me, or as we may be 'talking' now on-line. Nor is Allah the one to talk as the deaf to the deaf or the mute to the mute. Jibreel has said that Allah does not shrink from using examples as low as a misquito or anything greater than that .
Joe
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Peace Ahmed,
Salam mate
We have different understandings overall but there may still be something to gain by discussing a little more.
we all different bro, but the truth must be one, and I agree that our discussion is healthy
well, if Allah is the one who is describing it I bet it was described in a non average way, but it was described in many locations, in none, Allah never infomed us that the story is a similtitude as He did with many similtitudes in the Quran
Not everything is labelled a similitude. 37 informs us that there are clear and firm verses and then similar or interpretive verses and none but those grounded in knowledge understand them.
Bro, the verse 37 is on its own a Mutashabih verse, because it can be understood in many other ways
The point regarding ?None but those grounded in knowledge understand them? , is very misleading bro, this is my honest opinion, first of all, I see the verse never suggested that those grounded in knowledge will understand those Mutshabih verses, it never suggested as such the way I see it in the Arabic Quran, let me bring the verse here and give me a chance to explain
?He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?
(7)-> Mutashabihat, means ?unclear in meaning?, and Allah is telling us that the Quran consist of two types of verses
- verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning);
- others are allegorical (not established in meaning)
NONE knows the true meaning of the allegorical ones EXCEPT Allah.
The people firmly grounded in knowledge will still never know the meaning, that is what the above verse clear Arabic suggest from the sequence of Arabic words, it is a new sentence that started in the verse like this And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord", that is what Allah wants to tell us about those people grounded in knowledge, that they accept the allegorical verses regardless of its meaning because THEY HAVE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ALLAH NOT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE QURAN AND LIKE THEY MANGED TO KNOW THE MEANING OF THE ALLEGORICAL VERSE
This is very logical indeed, because if the managed to know the meaning then why they say this ? "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord", do you get my point mate?
If they managed to know the meaning then they just tell it to us and never say the above contradicting statement that it only means they failed to know its meaning, right?
Therefore any verse that is not giving a clear directive for the God's system are similar or interpretive verses. The vast majority of the book is therefore of the 'mutashabih' type.
The story of adam can not be mutshabihat, very lil and specific details might be, but the story happened for real as understood from the many times it was repeated, this is just the style of the Quran and is miraculous if you really know the language,
Verses like the Iblis episode are described in many ways with different dialogues thus these are clearly the similar verses.
that is where you are mixed up, thinking that Musgabihat means was told many times, or repeated, this is wrong bro, mutshabihat means ?UNCLEAR IN MEANING?, let me explain
, many other stories about Moses and pharaoh was repeated about the same exact incident to add further information for us and the same for many other things found in the Quran, I expect it is not going to be the exact same words as written in the Quran because the words written is Allah words while the true conversation from other parties were a mix of human, jinn and malaika, and in no way their words can be equivalent to Allah words, so what we read in the Quran is Allah perception to what happened and was told in many ways that none contradict each other as well they all complete each other to extract a complete story ?The Quran Explains Itself?, I have done this before actually regarding the story of Adam and Eve as extracted from the Quran, it is a very long comment that I wrote on another board, I might look for it and post it here, so you may understand where I?m coming from when you put everything about the same subject next to each other, it is very interesting comment actually, I have to find it though, but I can give a a simple example to show how the Quran explains itself as well prefect/complete itself
you know the story about Pharaoh when the magician realized that what Moses was doing is not magic and they submitted to Allah, Allah is telling us that Pharaoh said to the magicians
?Pharaoh said You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will crucify you all.?
(49)-> The last two words in the above verse said by Pharaoh and Interpreted to us by Allah ? ?, which was translated as ? and certainly I will crucify you all.?
-> The enemy of Islam use the above verse to attack the Quran by suggesting how come Pharaoh will crucify the magicians on the cross and Jesus came after Moses by over a thousand years? i.e. the Quran has a mistake.
While their argument is very flawed because the Quran never mentioned that they will be crucified on a cross or any thing in the above verse, it only said they will be crucified
And because Allah knows everything including the future He knew that some will claim that with ignorance, so Allah mentioned the same exact incident in another location and the same person was talking to the same people saying the same thing, but this time we have an extra bit of information added to it
?Pharaoh (Firon) said You believe in him before I give you leave; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you enchantment, therefore I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will certainly crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and certainly you will come to know which of us is the more severe and the more abiding in chastising. ?
(71)-> In this verse Allah is talking about THE SAME EXACT INCIDENT but the words said by Pharaoh WERE NOT IDENTICAL to verse 2649, but we have no conflict on the context neither the meaning or the lesson learnt, however we also have a new bit of info that refute those ignorant enemy of Islam as the verse clearly says that they will be crucified on trunks of palm trees?
using your very weak logic, then the above story and many others will be of a symbol and never happened because the words said was changed, while the objective of Allah is really simple is for us to find a conflict between those repeating stories, bearing in mind that the same story may have been told years apart when it was revealed as the Quran took 23 years to be fully revealed as you know, so a human to be consistent in the words for 23 years is really impossible and a contradiction in the his word should arise
when you read the long comment about extracting all the info regarding adam and eve and you put it next to each other and compare, you may understand two things
- that whatever the Quran says is for real unless it was explicitly mentioned as a similitude
- The miracle of the Quran and it can not be human made
But I have to find it first mate, I wrote a year ago
I agree 100%, in fact I'm sure they only heard his voice coming from somewhere, Humans like Moses heard God talking so why not it happned with the rest up there
Again for example the dialogue that occurs in Chapter 20 while it looks like a conversation between the God and a man is not happenning in the usual sense. The message could be descending to his consciousness with nothing to be heard by a third party.
And look at 2830-35 which relates the same episode and lo and behold there is a different dialogue.
As I explained bro, this is how the Quran was designed by Allah, it is not like any other book ever existed I read it always in Arabic for the last 25 years man, it is a real miracle as I see it, please wait for my long aocmment about the story of Adam and Eve, I just need to find it first
The reason is that neither one represents the communication that really took place because there were no words out loud. Nothing was 'heard' with the ears.
it was interpreted by Allah words to us in many way to achieve many objectives
We can only get an idea of the interaction, but not know the actual dynamics of it. The same is true of many of the interactions involving the God and that includes the one with Adam, Iblis etc.
I have to take as a true story because Allah never said the contrary, in fact that is what He said, it is a true story so going against this means I might be accusing God of deceiving us indirectly
ok, I have a verse from the Quran as an answer
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the Mala'ika, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
so the angels exist for real as creatures
The verse you quote is interesting especially because the number of fundamental forces in nature are 4.
can you please elaborate
"Wing" in this sense can mean modality or mode of force/control. The electromagnetic, strong & weak nuclear forces, and gravitation.
very wild guess bro, I?m sorry, Allah is not trying to show that He is smart by saying clear arabic words that means something totally different
but I still don?t understand, do you believe the Malaika exist for real like me and you?
the Jinns and Iblis exist for real as creatures, "Iblis" even is a name to one of the Jinn
humans exist for real and sure they all came from Adam
and finally Allah who created the above as He told us, exists for real
so why the repeated story is not real?
i would say you are going against the odds
"Iblis" cannot be a single creature or being. If you believe that is the case, then how do you believe he can influence 6 billion people at one time? Iblis/satan is the corrupt part of human nature to do evil. The part of humans that will mislead them rather than assist them in reaching the right path.
Iblis is a single creature and he has progeny exactly like humans, the Quran actually warned us from Iblis and His progeny
I agree hand can mean control and was used in the Quran to refer to Allah's control, but in the verse of Adam creation , Allah told us the He created Adam with His own hand "Yaddi", and it has to be understood as literal, no other possibilty can fit according to the arabic Quran
not to say His hand looks like our hand, rather I have no idea how it looks but i know he has hands as He told us
In this respect my thoughts lean positively towards the mutazilite school of thought...
As much as the absolute uniqueness of God, the Mu'tazila stress His absolute transcendence.
By this it is to be understood fundamentally that, for them, God is not a body, and therefore is
not to be attributed with any of the properties of a body, such as being localised, moving about,
having a form, etc. Two principal consequences are entailed. The first is that all
anthropomorphic representations of God are to be rejected; furthermore, any qur'anic
expression of this kind-the 'hands' of God, His 'eyes', His 'face', His 'side'-is to be
understood only in a figurative sense by the 'hand' of God, His blessing (ni'ma) is meant, by His
'eye', His knowledge (cf. Maqalat, 165, ll. 12-13; 195, ll. 13-15), by His 'side', His command
(amr) (ibid., 218, ll. 46), by His 'face', His very essence (ibid., 521, l. 16). The second consequence
is that God cannot be seen, in the literal sense of the term, either in this world or in the other,
since only a body can be seen, all vision operating through contact between a ray (shu'a') emitted
by the eye and the object that is seen (cf. 'Abd al-jabbar, al-Mugjni, iv, 57, ll. 10-11; al-juwayni,
al-Irshad, ed. Luciani, Paris 1938, 96, ll. 2-13). The qur'an, moreover, states explicitly of God that
'vision does not comprehend Him' (la tudrikuhu 'l-absaru, vi, 103).Thank you bro, I read it and I agree with a few points but reject the rest because this is what I believe
Some of Allah descriptions as extracted from the clear Arabic Quran can be as follow
- have hands
- Have eyes, and can see
- Can hear (not sure about the ear)
- Can talk (not sure about the mouth)
- He is every where
- And another 99 properties of Him
I respect that you may think differently, and again these are the similar verses we are discussing. It's best not to be dogmatic about them and accept that people can see them differently according to their different levels of understanding. Only the God knows what is meant.
Regards.
Sure man, peace be with you
-
Peace Ahmed,
No, the Quran told us that Allah can talk to others from behind a barrier without the others seeing Him, would you like to see the verse?
I do not think talking means that Allah talks as you may talk to me, or as we may be 'talking' now on-line. Nor is Allah the one to talk as the deaf to the deaf or the mute to the mute. Jibreel has said that Allah does not shrink from using examples as low as a misquito or anything greater than that .
Joe
Hello Joe
Allah can talk in two ways, Wahi, or direct
but when He talks direct, it will be behind a barrier that prevent us from seeing Him, this is what The Quran said
also it told us that Moses talked directly to Allah, but he failed to see Him, because the mountains could not stand seeing Allah due to His might
Moses was described as the prophet who has spoken to Allah, in the Quran
Peace
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Hello All
I would like to fix an error that i made in my comments, here is the section I need to elaborate on it again
Why Iblis is a Jinn?
This is not an assumption, the Quran told us as such, the Arabic word ?Min? means ?from the same entity?, we have a lot of examples in the Quran, like 28 and many others, for anyone to come and say ?Min? means similar is very strange indeed
?Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!?
(50)
-> You can?t get clearer than this ?Min? means literally ?From them?, used many times in the Quran, but can you see the underline words?, it says ? He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord?
I.E. WHEN HE BROKE THE COMMAND OF THE LORD HE WAS ONE OF THE JINNS, the words ? , and he broke the Command of his Lord? came after ? He was one of the Jinns? and between them ?And? in Arabic represented by the first letter ?Fa? in the word ? ? means ?and he broke the Command?, this should kill the argument of the ones who think Iblis was not a Jinn at the time of prostrating.
what is wrong in the above is this
The "Fa" in the word ? ? was translated as ?and he broke the Command?, I believe firmly that this is wrong, the "Fa" was translated as "And" and it SHOULD BE TRANSLATED AS "HENCE"
any fluent arabic speaker must agree
"And" in Arabic means one letter "Waw" and nothing else, the "Waw" was not used in the verse rather the "Fa" instead, and as far as I remember from my Arabic language study years ago, it is called "Al Fa Al Sababia", i.e. "what follows the Fa must be caused by what is preceding the Fa"
I.E.
Iblis broke the command BEACAUSE HE WAS A ONE OF THE JINNS
or
Iblis was one of the Jinns HENCE He broke the command
peace to all
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Hello brothers and sisters, I found the comment, it is a long one actually, I have to remove the Arabic verses to make room for the translation and my observation regarding the verses, My comment may seem that I'm talking to other people as i was debating it with a few freinds but I'm sorry I don't have time to edit it, but after this comment what will be left for me is another long comment which is a theme created from the information put as a full and complete story
(30)?And when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said Surely I know that which ye know not.?
(31)?And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.?
(32)?They said Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.?
(33)?He said O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.?
(34)?And when We said unto the angels Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.?
(35)?And We said O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.?
(36)?But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.?
(37)?Then Adam received from his Lord words, and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.?
(3?We said Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.?
(39) ?But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.?
if we examine those 9 verses carefully we can conclude the following
-> in verse 30 we see Allah is talking to the Angles and telling them ?And when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am about to place a viceroy ?humans? in the earth,? it is obvious from this bit that Allah told the angles that He will place humans ON EARTH, before he created Adam. The angles are described in the Quran that they have no free will but we will see next that they questioned God after the angles wondered. This will give us the inclination that you can question God and his doings as long as you respect him as a God, the angles on the other hand even kept part of their wonders inside them and did not expose it all, well they might even have asked themselves other questions wondering on why is going to place a new creature called humans on earth, they actually produced an argument to Allah as well by saying they said Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee?, , bur how the angles knew that the humans ? who will do harm therein and will shed blood? this bit actually confirmed what I read about the Jinn, that they were created ages before humans to inhibit earth but they destroy it totally due to their superior power but yet they never have the humans brain qualities, so Iblis who was one of them was worshipping Allah but not with sincerity he was a hypocrite, so Allah left him up to fool him further as Allah knows iblis was nothing but a hypocrite then assigned him a job as a paradise guard and while Iblis was up there, Allah sent the angles who imprisoned all the Jinn under the earth crust, but due to their superior abilities some have the knowledge on how to slip through the earth crust, this story sound like a tale but I do believe it when I see the verses of the Quran running in harmony with this story about the Jinn existence on earth before human and as I go into the story further you will understand what I mean with it, but as you can see that this might be the cause of the angles wonder, as they thought the humans will do the same as the Jinn did ?who will do harm therein and will shed blood?, but Allah responded back to the angles by ?He said Surely I know that which ye know not.? , confirming that they just do not know what Allah has planned to us as a new invention, but yet Allah proved the Angles ignorance in the following verse
-> verse 31, Allah taught Adam all the names of things, like tree, flower and so on, then asked the angles to say the names of a few things that Allah did not teach the angles but only Adam ?And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.?
-> verse 32, the angles ignorance was exposed ?They said Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.? can you see that they admitted that they have only knowledge on the things they have been taught by Allah
-> verse 33 shows Adam have the knowledge to learn and in fact he learnt more from God than the Angles ?He said O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names,? and Adam success in telling the names of the things produced by Allah, Allah spoke back to the Angles telling them He said Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth?, but Allah did not stop here in his talk to the angles He actually informed them that He even knew their wonder part that they did not expose to him ?And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.?
-> verse 34 tell us that humans are in higher level than the Angles, Allah said to the angles and Iblis who was up there as I explained before to Prostrate yourselves before Adam ?And when We said unto the angels Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate,, they all did expect Iblis ?all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.? so Allah exposed his hypocrisy, but a lot asked me that Iblis then was one of the Angles? Well the Quran came with the answer that runs in harmony with the historical story about the Jinn, I will jump quickly to another location in the Quran where it describes that part of the story of Adam
?Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!?
-> it is clear in this verse that Allah is responding to the people that claimed Iblis was one of the Angles ?except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns?, but see how consistent the Quran is, Allah is telling us what Iblis has done in another part of the Quran ? and he broke the Command of his Lord?, and the verse end with important information that Iblis is like us regarding reproduction as well Allah is wondering by asking us ? . Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me??, taking him as ?protector? means obeying him, means if a human do any mischief on earth he/she will be a devil worshipper, they just do not know, but here is Allah logic NOT to listen to the Jinn who can see us and we can not see them ?And they are enemies to you!? and sure the wrong-doers will exchange Evil for Allah ?Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!?, but if you read this bit in Arabic ? ? it means a condemnation by Allah to this sort of Exchange
and from here I will have to jump to another location in the Quran to show how Allah is telling us that Iblis and his progeny see us while we can not see them while the verse is summing up the whole plot at the same time
?O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.?
-> in this verse Allah is talking to all of us ?All humanity ? O ye Children of Adam!?, and He is advising us to watch for Satan ?Iblis? and his progeny ? ! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden,?, in fact after Adam and Eve fell into Satan seduction, Satan started to laugh hysterically and started to stripping their cloths to show the gentiles of each one to the other, this is actually a common knowledge in the story tale and yet it is written in the Quran ?stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame?, the word ? ? was translated as ?Shame?, but it means in Arabic the ?Genitals?, I think the translators somehow felt it will be odd to use the true translation ?Genitals? but sure they are stupid to do so, there is no shame in the Quran teachings, following that is an important piece of information from Allah that humans need to know ?for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them? and finally Allah telling us that He will make the bad Jinns friends to the bad humans ? We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.?
-> back to main story in verse 35 we see Allah is telling Adam to dewell in the garden and eat freely but never touch this tree otherwise you will be wrong-doers ?And We said O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.?
-> verse 36 tell us that Satan succeeded in seducing our parents by fooling them to eat from the forbidden tree ?But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were;, the story here did not go into details but in other locations in the Quran it went further into details, like the example I showed you about stripping their clothes to show their genitals?, then the objective of putting us on earth is fulfilled ?and We said Fall down,? but Allah is telling us an important note that humans are going to be foes to each other and this is really true over the history of mankind? one of you a foe unto the other!? and the earth will be the place to live on until the judgement day ?There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.?
-> verse 37 telling us that Adam was more responsible for the sin unlike other beliefs that Eve was responsible, but the point is Adam knew of the mistake committed and he relented to Allah because Allah has warned him in advance ?Then Adam received from his Lord words, and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.?, my note here that this Arabic words were translated wrong ? ? it actually means clearly that Allah has forgiven Adam after Adam relented to Allah, this forgiveness was a must because earth was the location for this life as intended by Allah before creating Adam, but Allah with his wisdom wanted this to be associated with a great lesson for humanity to watch for Satan and his progeny
-> verse 38 is the confrmation for humanity to settle on earth with a promise from Allah that He will not leave us alone without his guidance ?We said Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance;? and sure humans who will follow the guidance shall have no fear neither they will grieve ?and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.?
-> verse 39 tells us about the humans who will not follow the guidance that will be sent by Allah ?But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.?
Now I will jump to a further locations in the Quran where more details about some events within the story, this will show the consistency of the Quran
(26)?We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;?
(27)?And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.?
(2?Behold! thy Lord said to the angels "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;?
(29)"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
(30)?So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together?
(31)?Not so Iblis he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.?
(32)?(Allah) said "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"
(33)?(Iblis) said "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."
(34)?(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.?
(35)"And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."
(36)?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
(37)?(Allah) said "Respite is granted thee?(3"Till the Day of the Time appointed."
(39)?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-?
(40)"Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
(41)?(Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.?
(42)"For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."
(43)?And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!?
(44)?To it are seven gates for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.?
we can see extra information regarding the first humans created as follow
-> verse26 , a piece of information that humans are created from sounding clay moulded into shape ?We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;?
-> verse 27 another piece of information that Jinns are created from the fire of a scorching wind ?And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.?
-> verse 28 starts Adam story again?Behold! thy Lord said to the angels "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;?
-> verse 29 give us more details on Adam creation "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit,? then when Adam be a live human after Allah breathed into him of His spirit, Allah is telling the anfles to fall down unto Adam?fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
-> verse 30 , tells us that all the angles obeyed Allah?s command to fall down unto Adam?So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together?
-> verse 31, but Iblis refused so as he had a choice unlike the angles?Not so Iblis he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.?
-> verse 32, Allah asked Iblis, why he refused to fall down unto Adam ?(Allah) said "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"
-> verse 33, Iblis responded with ?(Iblis) said "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape.", Iblis knew that Adam was created from sounding clay, moulded into shape and because he was created from fire Iblis thought he is better than humans
-> verse 34, show us Allas response by ?(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.? and Iblis was cursed by Allah
-> verse 35 tells us that Iblis curse will be on him till the judgment day "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment.", sure this made Iblis hate humans more
-> verse 36, Iblis requested that Allah give him a chance till the judjment day to prove to Him that humans do not deserve this respect ?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
-> verse 37, Allah granted Iblis wish ?(Allah) said "Respite is granted thee?
-> verse 38, and the wish was granted to Iblis till the judjment day as he requested from Allah "Till the Day of the Time appointed."
-> verse 39, we see how Iblis was angry with Adam and how he promised to put all humans in the wrong ?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-?, but can you see how Iblis realized that he was played by God, as rasing him first to be one of the garden guards then Allah created Adam and asked Iblis to fall down unto Adam, this is obvious from what Iblis said ? O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong? and in Arabic ? ?
-> verse 40, Iblis is saying but he can not do this ?putting humans in the wrong? with the sincere believers in Allah "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
-> verse 41, then Allah responded to Iblis ?(Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.?, this actually is translated wrong again, the Arabic verse ? ? actually means that Allah is saying ?This is the straight truth that I will enforce? and what that straight truth is?, in the following verse is the answer
-> verse 42, tells us what we should know by Allah as a truthful fact "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee." , that satan will have no authority over the sincere believers and only the people who put themselves in the wrong will follow him
-> verse 43 tells us of the final destination of Iblis and his followers from Jinn and from mankind is ?And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!?
-> verse 44 tell us a small description of that Hell promised in the last verse ?To it are seven gates for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.?, so the Hell will have 7 gates, for each gate there will enter an assigned number of sinners, it seems that the sinners will be grouped in seven groups according to the level of sins committed, i.e the Hell has seven levels
moving to another location in the Quran where the story of Adam is mentioned again
(71) ?Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I am about to create man from clay?
(72) "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
(73) ?So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together ?
(74) ?Not so Iblis he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.?
(75)?(Allah) said "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
(76) ?(Iblis) said "I am better than he thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
(77)(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here for thou art rejected, accursed.?
(7 "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
(79) ?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
(80) ?(Allah) said "Respite then is granted thee-?
(81) "Till the Day of the Time Appointed."
(82) ?(Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,- ?
(83)"Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
(84) ?(Allah) said "Then it is just and fitting- and I say what is just and fitting-?
(85) "That I will certainly fill Hell with thee and those that follow thee,- every one."
-> I do not need to add my comments, it is almost the same as the previous location however if you compare the arabic words between the 2 location you will start sensing the miracle of the Quran, the same story is said while changing the arbic words and even using different Arabic words that will lead to the same and exact meaning, and this is an open gate to find any discrepancies in the Quran, because for a conman to keep track of what he is saying in a period of 23 years ?the time took for the whole Quran revelation? it will be damn hard and he has to make mistakes, especially if he tried to be smart and use different words to express the same and exact meaning
-> the only extra piece of information here is in verse 82, where it will show us how Iblis is swearing with Allah?s power to put all humans in the wrong ?(Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,- ?, this should give the impression, how Iblis will be so determined to put all humans in the wrong
let?s jump again to another location in the Quran
(61) ?Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down unto Adam" They bowed down except Iblis He said, "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"
(62) ?He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!"
(63) ?(Allah) said "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee, verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all)- an ample recompense.?
(64)"Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.?
(65)"As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them" Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs.?
-> same story again in different Arabic words, this is a language miracle my friend, would that be possible for even a literate man? Well of course IT IS NOT POSSIBLE because the Quran has challenged humanity to make up ONE SURA like the Quran and the Quran did not stop here but asked the Jinn to support the humans as well, not even enough, well the Quran asked humans who believe in another Gods to ask for their Gods assistance as well, and yet the Quran tells us the outcome of this challenge that NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO ?I have all the verses to back me up?, the miracle is this the shortest sure in the Quran is 3 verses, so the challenge is really to just write down 3 verses like the Quran, well NO ONE MANAGED TO DO IT IN 1425 years and we still counting, but I have a history of all trials if you would like to know it and see how it failed
-> the extra pieces of information here are as follow
-> verse 62, Iblis is saying that he will sway most people BUT A FEW ?He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway ? all but a few!"
-> verse 64, Allah is telling us what Iblis can do to us "Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.?
let?s move to another location in the Quran
(11)?It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.?
(12)?(Allah) said "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
(13) ?(Allah) said "Get thee down from this it is not for thee to be arrogant here get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
(14)?He said "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
(15) ?(Allah) said "Be thou among those who have respite."
(16)?He said "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way ?
(17) "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
(1 ?(Allah) said "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.?
(19)"O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
(20) ?Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before) he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
(21)?And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.?
(22) ?So by deceit he brought about their fall when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
(23) ?They said "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls If thou forgive us not and bestow not? (24)?(Allah) said "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
(25)?He said "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
-> the Quran language miracle continues by telling the same exact story using different words, please compare the arabic verses, but let?s look at the extra pieces of information that we can extract from these verses
-> verse 17 telling us how satan will launch his continuous assult against humans and sure most of us will follow him "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
-> in verse 20 we can see how Iblis fooled Adam and Eve to convince them of eating from the forbidden tree ?Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before) he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
-> verse 21, we can see another trick that Iblis used to fool Adam and Eve ?And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.?
-> verse 22 we can also see that the moment Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, and after Iblis ripped off their cloths and their genitals were exposed they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies ?So by deceit he brought about their fall when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. ", then Allah called Adam and Eve ?And their Lord called unto them "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
-> verse 23, Adam and Eve responded back to Allah ?They said "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls If thou forgive us not and bestow not?
-> verse 24 then they were sent down to earth ?(Allah) said "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
-> verse 25 is one of my favourite verses in the Quran describing Earth ?He said "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)., in arabic ? ?
let?s jump again to another location in the Quran, the last one regarding Adam and Eve
(115) ?We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot and We found on his part no firm resolve.?
(116) ?When We said to the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis he refused.?
(117) ?Then We said "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.?
(11 "There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,?
(119) "Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."
(120) ?But Satan whispered evil to him he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
(121) ?In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.?
(122) ?But his Lord chose him (for His Grace) He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.?
(123) ?He said "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.?
-> same language miracle continues and the only extra piece of info is seen here is within the advice by Allah to Adam not to touch the forbidden tree, Allah told Adam that if they violates then they will be removed from the Garden
-> verse 117 ?Then We said "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.?
-> verse 118 and this is what Adam and Eve were enjoying in the garden "There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,?, and sure that is why they become naked after they violated
-> verse 119, as well Adam and Eve were enjoying the following in the garden "Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."
the point is here, Adam and Eve story was very important to be detailed in Allah?s last message, you expect this if Allah is telling us that those are the first 2 humans he created, well the rest of us came from them, and finally I will end my answer to this question by this verse from the Quran
?O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.?
Thanks for reading
Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
Mutashabihat, means ?unclear in meaning?, and Allah is telling us that the Quran consist of two types of verses
- verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning);
- others are allegorical (not established in meaning)
I think mutashabih means same/similar/alike in this instance. These mutashabih signs are clear but 37 is telling us that they must be confirmed to be the correct interpretation according to muhkam ayatin. In ayat 270 for example, the cows are said to be alike . In 225 the people are given the same or the like of what they tasted of the fruits of their good deeds from before, in the transient world. In ayat 2118 the people without knowledge say the same things as the people before did. In 699 the vegetation is similar and yet different in their kinds. I can go on and on and hope you understand what I am saying.
Allah does not guide with confusion. My opinion.
Joe
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Hello Joe
I'm sorry bro as far as I believe, Mushabihat menas (UNCLEAR), it is a common arabic word, anyone who is a suspect for any crime, we call him or her (Mashboh) i.e. it is not clear if he/she committed a crime
as well from the context of the verse, (unclear) will sure make all the sense and similar will not make any sense because if Allah says the following "No one knows its meaning except Allah"
i.e. those Mutashabih verses are unclear and none knows its true meanning except Allah.
if Mutshabihat means similar, then the above bolded senstence included in verse 37 will make absoutely NO SENSE
Actaually verse 37 may be considered Mutashabih verse
This confusion those unclear verses cause is a deliberate act by Allah according to verse 37 to test both the believers and the non believers
peace Joe
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Peace Ahmed,
I'm sorry bro as far as I believe, Mushabihat menas (UNCLEAR), it is a common arabic word, anyone who is a suspect for any crime, we call him or her (Mashboh) i.e. it is not clear if he/she committed a crime
That's good to know, but it is clearly used in the quran as meaning that which is like or similar, not that which is unclear.
as well from the context of the verse, (unclear) will sure make all the sense and similar will not make any sense because if Allah says the following "No one knows its meaning except Allah"
When I take into consideration that Allah says these are clear signs I cannot except your meaning of mutashabih as unclear. The ayat makes sense to me that there are decisive ayat by which the similar ones should be confirmed. Those who ignore this key start interpreting the similar ayat without confirmation in the decisive ones.
if Mutshabihat means similar, then the above bolded senstence included in verse 37 will make absoutely NO SENSE
The whole context you're creating makes no sense to me.
Joe
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Is there any point in me sending you that message if that statement was true?
You are breaking the verse up incorrectly. The verse makes sense only when the meaning is....
37 ... None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
Otherwise if it meant nothing even to those well founded in knowledge then it is meaningless to send that message - like the message above.
Regards.
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SaLaM Ahmed
You are right. For example, i have always believed that the letters at the bginning of some surahs are mushabihat. Coz no one seems to have an answer for that.
Sure Bro, the arabic Quran is clear as light, it is strange that non arabic speakers try hard ans insist on things that make no sense whatsoever
peace man
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace bro
I'm sorry bro as far as I believe, Mushabihat menas (UNCLEAR), it is a common arabic word, anyone who is a suspect for any crime, we call him or her (Mashboh) i.e. it is not clear if he/she committed a crime
That's good to know, but it is clearly used in the quran as meaning that which is like or similar, not that which is unclear.
Not at all, the arabic meaning is clear as light and "People with well grounded knowledge" ONLY MEANS PEOPLE WITH FIRM KNOWLEDGE OF ALLAH, not firm in the knowledge of science
well Einestien was firm in science knowledge and he never believed in the Quran, you see if knowledge means science then the Quran is wrong
also "similar verses" does not make any sense, beacause for the first group the Quarn does not say UNSIMILAR or INDIVIDUAL VERSES, rather verses clear/established in meanings, so and logically speaking the opposite is verses that is not clear in meaning, also Mutshabihat MEANS UNCLEAR IN MEANING 100%
as well from the context of the verse, (unclear) will sure make all the sense and similar will not make any sense because if Allah says the following "No one knows its meaning except Allah"
When I take into consideration that Allah says these are clear signs I cannot except your meaning of mutashabih as unclear. The ayat makes sense to me that there are decisive ayat by which the similar ones should be confirmed. Those who ignore this key start interpreting the similar ayat without confirmation in the decisive ones.
ok, fine mate we have to agree to disagree
if Mutshabihat means similar, then the above bolded senstence included in verse 37 will make absoutely NO SENSE
The whole context you're creating makes no sense to me.
Joe
sure, then we have to agree to disagree and leave it to Allah
peace