did Muhammad really have 11 wives?
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The reason this part of his life is not in quran is that it has no benefit to the reader.
Peace
Peace Zenje,
I don't know if your are replying me?Anyway, you say "this part of his life" . The life of whom? The usual Muhammad or you have the same view than Idolfree?
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Peace be upon you sister Elena,
but couldn't the Arab person who was inspired be the person who is reported to have several wives, go to Medina, orphan, etc?
Yes, could be, and could not be. We will never know.
Someone has to be, why not that one?
Could be that one, but there is no historical proof of "that one" or "any one"
Assigning this to a person in history makes the message dead, the God is telling us ALL to be "muhammad", the description of one who has "hamd", not to be an Arab Man who lives 1400 years ago.
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Peace idolfree,
I understand.
At the same time, this option of putting aside the "usual" Muhammad makes me think of the other extreme, the traditional extreme of putting him in the center of the message till the extend of giving him more importance than to the message.
I can't help ( It seems to me denying the "usual" Muhammad being the person who received the inspiration to not have to deal with the controversial part of his reported actions.
A question, there is no source appart from Bukhari & Co hadiths that gives information about this individual? None?
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Peace Elena,
The reason this part of his life is not in quran is that it has no benefit to the reader.
Peace
Peace Zenje,
I don't know if your are replying me?
Not specifically, but you're included . I was replying to the question of the thread.Anyway, you say "this part of his life" . The life of whom? The usual Muhammad or you have the same view than Idolfree?
Whichever way one chooses to look at it, the number of wives a person(s) may have or had (or what their names are) has no significance or benefit to any of us.Peace
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Peace Zenje,
Peace Elena,
Not specifically, but you're included ) .
Thanks )Peace Whichever way one chooses to look at it, the number of wives a person(s) may have or had (or what their names are) has no significance or benefit to any of us.
no benefit but it would give us some information. Don't you think taht information would be very important if we really had the true information?
Peace Idolfree,
the books that have been written about Muhammad give bibliography, but I have to research if the original sources are based just on the Arab tradition or something else. My readings say the study, not by Arabs, of his life not started around 1600 by Thomas Erpenius (1584-1624) in Leiden and Edward Pocok (1604-16919 in Oxford and from this there a lot to check.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
At the same time, this option of putting aside the "usual" Muhammad makes me think of the other extreme, the traditional extreme of putting him in the center of the message till the extend of giving him more importance than to the message.
I can't help It seems to me denying the "usual" Muhammad being the person who received the inspiration to not have to deal with the controversial part of his reported actions.
Controversial part of whose actions? There is no history of this man except that controversy. This reading uses the word "muhammadan" as a description only. It is this made up character that has all the controversy
A question, there is no source appart from Bukhari & Co hadiths that gives information about this individual? None?
I dont know, but how can it ever be proven? I dont deal with people in histry, because you just cant prove it, its impossible. All I like to dewal with is philosophies, because we can implement the philosophies to see if they are true, we can verify them. The God does not ask us to believe in that which we cannot verify.
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Peace Idolfree,
A question, there is no source appart from Bukhari & Co hadiths that gives information about this individual? None?
I dont know, but how can it ever be proven? I dont deal with people in histry, because you just cant prove it, its impossible..
Then, as you don't know you decide to put the suppossed Muhammad aside. Something is incomplete here. Something is left. It is not enough. It is not a proof that the suppossed Muhamamd was not the person who received the inspiration.
Let me wite again what I wrote above
Peace Idolfree,
the books that have been written about Muhammad give bibliography, but I have to research if the original sources are based just on the Arab tradition or something else. My readings say the study, not by Arabs, of his life started around 1600 by Thomas Erpenius (1584-1624) in Leiden and Edward Pocok (1604-16919 in Oxford and from this there a lot to check.
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Peace be upon you Sister Elena,
Then, as you don't know you decide to put the suppossed Muhammad aside.
No, it is because the message does not speak of a person named "muhammadun" that I put it aside. One would have to have a pre concieved idea that there is a real person to "put it aside". If we just read the message, there is no mention of a historical person. It is the historical muhammad that reqires the proof, which can never be given since his person would be dead physically. Now it is like trying to prove santa claus was a real human.
Something is incomplete here. Something is left. It is not enough. It is not a proof that the suppossed Muhamamd was not the person who received the inspiration.
I am not understanding, what is incomplete? The person who did get the inspiration and write the book could indeed be DESCRIBED with the word "muhammadun", but that does not mean his name was "Muhammad".
Sister, do not let the rejectors run yuo around trying to prove that which can never, a this point, be proven. Trying to prove that will in no way improve your behavior, and thats what the message is about, which is why none of these characters are real, just stories about US ALL D
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Peace Sis Elena,
Peace Whichever way one chooses to look at it, the number of wives a person(s) may have or had (or what their names are) has no significance or benefit to any of us.
no benefit but it would give us some information. Don't you think taht information would be very important if we really had the true information?
IMHO, no. I don't think this information has any importance or significance whatsoever. Again, this is my opinion. )Peace
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Peace Idolfree,
sorry for having said that agressive comment ("as you don't know, you decide...")
I have the book 'Mohammed', by Hartmun Bobzin, 2004, Ed. ABC, SL , first Edition 2000, C.H. Beck Verlag.
It tracks the studies about the person, lots of Bibilography and titles and after reading it, I could conclude that the original sources are the quran and the tradition and that a lot of addings were inserted because the quran had very few about his life, it had just about his rol as messenger.
The authors of those studies trusted on those sources, but yes, lots of fabrications have to be there, and I can't can't verify further, ok.
Peace Zenje,
you think it is not important but if we had the true info about the life of the person who received the inspiration, it could help to know what the quran says. For instance, there is no agreement in the poligamy issue. If we knew if that person had married many women, if he lived the message, then it would support the interpretation that poligamy is allowed.
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Peace Elena,
you think it is not important but if we had the true info about the life of the person who received the inspiration, it could help to know what the quran says. For instance, there is no agreement in the poligamy issue. If we knew if that person had married many women, if he lived the message, then it would support the interpretation that poligamy is allowed.
I disagree because al-quraan has an internal methodology and it doesnt include looking at other texts. If pro-polygamy supporters bring historical evidence without bringing in textual evidence, then their evidence wont be acceptable.
The salaat issue best demonstrates this. If we use hadith/seerah/maghazi texts to determine what salaat is, we come up with a picture which is not in alignment with al-quraan. The textual evidence which people have attempted to bring out renders a far more quranic picture.
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Sister, do not let the rejectors run yuo around trying to prove that which can never, a this point, be proven.
This is rather unfair comment Idolfree. I have found Elena to be too astute to be run around by "rejectors" as you say it.
Regards,
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LoteTree This is rather unfair comment Idolfree. I have found Elena to be too astute to be run around by "rejectors" as you say it.
This isnt a question of astuteness but of zeal. What Kyle's trying to say it, don't be overawed by the 'academic' methodology preached. Al-quraan should be judged and interpreted on its own, not with an artificial method.
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LoteTree This is rather unfair comment Idolfree. I have found Elena to be too astute to be run around by "rejectors" as you say it.
This isnt a question of astuteness but of zeal. What Kyle's trying to say it, don't be overawed by the 'academic' methodology preached. Al-quraan should be judged and interpreted on its own, not with an artificial method.
Astute - shrewd, smart, of good judgement, perceptive, judicious, incisive, wise, intelligent...
I think these qualities will allow someone to see beyond the "zeal" of any people...
This isnt a question of astuteness but of zeal. What Kyle's trying to say it, don't be overawed by the 'academic' methodology preached. Al-quraan should be judged and interpreted on its own, not with an artificial method.
But this approach is not even scientific? A scientific approach would be to apply same instrument of analysis to all scriptures and not change the method of analysis depending on the holy text...this is the objective way, this is the scientific way...
One of the definition of
methodology - A documented approach for performing activities in a coherent, consistent, accountable, and repeatable manner
So lets have it mquran?
So we can go away and apply this yes?
Regards,
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Astute - shrewd, smart, of good judgement, perceptive, judicious, incisive, wise, intelligent...
I think these qualities will allow someone to see beyond the "zeal" of any people
You're telling me the factors of LEVELS of astuteness and zeal AND the nature of the subject matter has nothing to do with it? Simply 'astute' overrules 'zeal' ? I disagree.
In this case, seeking a historical recourse has no basis in al-quraan.
But this approach is not even scientific? A scientific approach would be to apply same instrument of analysis to all scriptures and not change the method of analysis depending on the holy text...this is the objective way, this is the scientific way...
All scriptures ? Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ? Can you also please tell me where I might find these 'objective (key phrase , please dont ignore this) instruments of analysis' ? Lastly, can you please tell me, what makes these instruments 'objective' ?
So lets have it mquran?
So we can go away and apply this yes?
I've already described to you in another thread and in chat. I'm not going to repeat myself. If you wish, you may deconstruct what's already been said.
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In this case, seeking a historical recourse has no basis in al-quraan.
This is your own opinion.
But this approach is not even scientific? A scientific approach would be to apply same instrument of analysis to all scriptures and not change the method of analysis depending on the holy text...this is the objective way, this is the scientific way...
All scriptures ? Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?
Regardless if Quran approves other scriptures are not. Thats not the point is it? In order to be objective same method of analysis should be carried out on all scriptures.
Can you also please tell me where I might find these 'objective (key phrase , please dont ignore this) instruments of analysis' ?
This is irrellevant to you anway from your previous statement.
Lastly, can you please tell me, what makes these instruments 'objective' ?
Objective 2+2=4
So lets have it mquran?
So we can go away and apply this yes?I've already described to you in another thread and in chat. I'm not going to repeat myself. If you wish, you may deconstruct what's already been said.
methodology - A documented approach for performing activities in a coherent, consistent, accountable, and repeatable manner
You have done no such thing. As for our chat you only proved to yourself why Quran is the absolute truth for you...
Here is a test for you
Show using your methodology that Quranic Stance on Polygamy?
Please give full details so that we can apply this methodology to other things - since this methodology should not change should it?Regards,
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LT This is your own opinion.
It's my view, yes. Why don't you actually provide yours instead of helping me identify my own view.
Regardless if Quran approves other scriptures are not. Thats not the point is it? In order to be objective same method of analysis should be carried out on all scriptures.
It IS the point if one is a believer which I am. But assuming I'm not, can you please tell me what qualifies as a 'scripture' ?
This is irrellevant to you anway from your previous statement
Oh but if YOU used the phrase, YOU must know what it means. So tell me 'where I might find these 'objective (key phrase , please dont ignore this) instruments of analysis'
you told me that I should use it so presumably you must know where it or they is/are.
Objective 2+2=4
Great. Back to our issue. What makes A HERMENEUTICAL/EXEGETICAL INSTRUMENT objective?
You have done no such thing. As for our chat you only proved to yourself why Quran is the absolute truth for you...
I disagree and assert you're lying. I further assert that you have no idea what 'objective instruments of analysis' are and will never be able to furnish this discussion with the details of one.
Show using your methodology that Quranic Stance on Polygamy?
Please give full details so that we can apply this methodology to other things - since this methodology should not change should it?I have not engaged in this subject and therefore cannot give answers which Im comfortable with.
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You have done no such thing. As for our chat you only proved to yourself why Quran is the absolute truth for you...
I disagree and assert you're lying. I further assert that you have no idea what 'objective instruments of analysis' are and will never be able to furnish this discussion with the details of one.
I have the transcript of our entire conversations mquran...all you kept saying is that quran has its own internal methodology. You gave no such description of this methodology. So gives us the procedures for this methodology. But if you haven't worked out the methodolgoy yet then I fully understand and we can leave it at that...
Regards,