Is Quran anti- secular?
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SaLaM idmkhizar
Do you beleive that had prisons in those days?
Khi- Salam. Yes ofcourse. The same sura 12 i quoted above tells us abt Prophet Joseph having been thrown into prison
She said, "This is the one you blamed me for falling in love with. I did indeed try to seduce him, and he refused. Unless he does what I command him to do, he will surely go to prison, and will be debased."
Two young men were in the prison with him. One of them said, "I saw (in my dream) that I was making wine," and the other said, "I saw myself carrying bread on my head, from which the birds were eating. Inform us of the interpretation of these dreams. We see that you are righteous."
Prisons are very old. GOD Bless! -
SaLaM idmkhizar
And what about cutting of hands?
Khi- Salam. Yes but NOT cutting off completely but to mark them. The Quran gives an example in sura 12
When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they CUT THEIR HANDS.* They said, "Glory be to GOD, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel."*1231 This is the same word used in 538 regarding the hand of the thief, and the sum of sura and verse numbers (12+31 and 5+3 are the same. Therefore, the thief's hand should be marked, not severed as practiced by the corrupted Islam (see Footnote 53.
The king said, "Bring him to me." When the messenger came to him, he said, "Go back to your lord and ask him to investigate the women who CUT THEIR HANDS. My Lord is fully aware of their schemes."
Mathematical Proof Supports Quranic Justice
The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
*538 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 1231 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they
cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did notcut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 538 and 1231, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 1231, we see the same word (1250).GOD Bless!
See how the division between Quranists start. Most of the forum imho (myself inluded) believe that punishment for stealing is NOT marking hands but CUTTING OFF RESOURCES of the thieves.
Now let's imagine that we will have a Quran-only country based on Quranic laws.
Which translation will be enforced?
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See how the division between Quranists start. Most of the forum imho (myself inluded) believe that punishment for stealing is NOT marking hands but CUTTING OFF RESOURCES of the thieves.
Now let's imagine that we will have a Quran-only country based on Quranic laws.
Which translation will be enforced?
Khi- Salam. To simply answer your qs, the translation accepted by the majority would be enforced. But first we'll have to know whether it's Quran-only or "quran-only" for im 99.999999999% sure that 9128&129 do NOT belong to the Quran, thus anyone believing that those two are part opf the Quran are not true Quran Aloners for me and many others. Ok now suppose we have a country ruled by Quran Alone code-19 believers. Again it's the opinion/interpretation of the majority which ultimately dominates though all are taken into consideration and could be accepted at a later stage. This is how it always goes. GOD Bless!
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brother mquran...dont be offended pls.....I didnt mention anyones name here...so pls dont take it over you. I have just made a prediction and I am focusing on the mind set..not the Quranic teaching.
If I didnt accept Quran to be guiding book than I wouldnt be in this forum for yearssss........I am just focusing on the pattern which we should be aware of. We should always ask ourselve if we are getting obsessed with something or not. In my opinion Obsession about God is also harmful and can deviat us from sound judgement.
Shamsul, Im not offended. I just think you're being unfair. But its cool, you have your way, I have mine. I AM fanatical about al-quraan and am happy to be because its from Allah, the only thing in life worth being fanatical about.
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I meant the Quran is NOT enough and appropriate for running countries.
So why did you mention hadith, sunnah and the like ? Do you think how sunnis handle it was CORRECT? If not, why was it worth mentioning?
That's 5/48 not 5/38. And yes, Allah is telling you to judge by His Book. Either you do or you'll be judging according to hawaa, vain desires.
Do you think that if the Quran was revealed in 20th century it would have the same laws for adulters for example, whipping?
We are in the space age buddy, wake up
Yes, that's your OPINION. Do you have textual evidence. 5/48 which you quoted completely overruled you there, 'buddy' )
Also, do you think if you live in the space age, you will lose your essential humanity? Why are human beings still exploiting one another?
Its cool though, if you think the Quran is outdated chuck it out. Be upfront about it. Don't try to be in 2 camps like a hypocrite.
The only person brave enough to admit his kufr to the Quran is Lote Tree. The rest of the democratic camp are nothing but cowards. They never refer to the book and claim that they are muslims. Im still waiting to see ONE verse telling us to refer to the rejectors to establish our deen. One verse....
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Hi Mquran,
Please vote in the poll here on the issue
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4495Your initiative is proof of your bias. Look at your wording
'religious legislation in all countries according to the religion of majority'.Is al-quraan promoting a RELIGION?
Devious, PM, real devious.
Al-quraan promotes ad-deen al-islaam , the servitude to Allah alone, through the obedience of his laws. You''re not a muslim unless you submit to His Laws. However, you would ask the approval of al-kuffar before you serve Allah?
Never will al-yahood or an-nasara be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. (2/120)
Isnt Islam a religion? And if a muslim country follows muslim laws , wont it be religious legislation? whats devious in it?
The 2nd option clearly indicated that every country in the world follow laws based on the religion of majority. Be it hindus, muslims, christians, jews, sikhs, buddhists etc..
If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?Al-quraan predicted your attitude before you even concieved it.
Now, whats this supposed to mean? Cant u plain discuss with people without being judgemental?
I can use the same Quran and judge u. But I wont. Coz u r a fellow human being like me, and I respect u for that fact,and I respect the difference in our views as well. Cant u do that? -
Hi Nadia,
Peace.
U are right, Shamsul. I can sense it coming too. And its ''Quran alone'' and not God alone.
I agree. A friend told me something beautiful the other night.
"you dont read God, you feel God"
I still think the messege of the quraan, is wonderful, but the importent thing is our belive in God.I agree, Nadia.
We can feel God's signs within and outside of us, everywhere.
Thats a good quote.Peace!
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Hi stillearning,
Dangerous indeed this democracy thing might catch on and what might that lead to Choice for the people, better living standards, freedom to practice their faith or lack of it etc. Very dangerous indeed.
RegardsThats a good one P
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If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?
Khi- Salam. This cannot be so for legal laws. One single country cant have two legal laws. For example the OT Bible says kill/stone the adulterer while Quran says to lash him while the secular says no punishemtn at all. Now we cant have the court of a country in which there are Jews, christians, muslims and seculars ask again and agaian "are you jew or muslim or secular or christian" and then punish or leave accordingly. That wont work. If the Christians or Muslims want that such happen the country would split into two and no longer remain one. The laws is what makes up the country primarily. GOD Bless!
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Hi Mquran,
The only person brave enough to admit his kufr to the Quran is Lote Tree. The rest of the democratic camp are nothing but cowards. They never refer to the book and claim that they are muslims.
Looks like I missed on Lotetree's confession that he is kufr. Can u enlighten us?
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Hi Idmkhizar,
If muslims are to follow Quranic laws for all people(muslims and non muslims) in the country, then its only fair to allow others to follow their religious laws in their countries, isnt it?
Khi- Salam. This cannot be so for legal laws. One single country cant have two legal laws. For example the OT Bible says kill/stone the adulterer while Quran says to lash him. Now we cant have the court of a country in which there are Jews, christians and muslims ask again and agaian "are you jew or muslim" and then punish accordingly. That wont work. If the Christians or Muslims want that such happen the country would split into two and no longer remain one. The laws is what makes up the country primarily. GOD Bless!
I agree that there cant be many different legislations in one country. What I mean was, if u r saying muslims countries should have Quranic legislation for all, then its only fair to say christian countries can have christian legislation for all in their country, jews have jewish legislation for all in thei country, hindus have hindu legislation for all in their countries etc
Let me give an example Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?
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I agree that there cant be many different legislations in one country. What I mean was, if u r saying muslims countries should have Quranic legislation for all, then its only fair to say christian countries can have christian legislation for all in their country, jews have jewish legislation for all in thei country, hindus have hindu legislation for all in their countries etc
Khi- Salam. Yep, obviously if thts what they want.
Let me give an example Say, u live in a country with hindu majority and they have hindu legislation, and if according to the legislation, the widows had to burnt alive along with their dead husbands(its a practice called sati that was practiced among hindus), would u be ok to follow it? Or would u prefer secular and just legislation not taking into consideration religious beliefs, and with personal freedom to practice one's religion?
Khi- Id prefer not to live there and 2ndly how do you define just. For a faction of hindus(not all agree to sati) sati is just and they have thir reasons, though weird they maybe, to justify it. If you think only secularity is just then your wrong. Countries which want secularism and the majority chooses it, fine but as a believer we must not strive for such. We must strive for quranistan. GOD Bless!
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Hi Idmkhizar,
Sati was one extreme example I chose, to explain. There are loads of other customs. Thankfully, the practice has come to extinction becoz of the awareness amongst people.
If one can live there, in a secular legislation, peacefully with all people and practice religion in one's personal space, is that wrong? -
Hi Idmkhizar,
Sati was one extreme example I chose, to explain. There are loads of other customs. Thankfully, the practice has come to extinction becoz of the awareness amongst people.
If one can live there, in a secular legislation, peacefully with all people and practice religion in one's personal space, is that wrong?Khi- Salam. For a believer i said he/she must strive for the Quranic laws to be put in action(thats one form of jihaad), not with violence but by words and educating people. If ur just content with secularity then u dont believe in Quran. Id say secularism is the intermediate stage btw corrupted relgious laws and the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Hi Idmkhizar,
Khi- Salam. For a believer i said he/she must strive for the Quranic laws to be put in action(thats one form of jihaad), not with violence but by words and educating people. If ur just content with secularity then u dont believe in Quran. Id say secularism is the intermediate stage btw corrupted relgious laws and the Quran. GOD Bless!
I would disagree with ur views but at the same time, I respect them.
And I dont see the need to tell people,''listen, this is true and will work and is best''. If it is so, It will just be plain evident and people can see it without being told to. Truth speaks for itself.
And we all believe in Quran. But I guess, Our interpretations and understandings differ. LIke u believe in Code 19 and RK, I dont, though I believe the Quran.
But its ok to have our differences as long as we respect each other.
Lets pray Allah guides all of us to the truth.Peace to u!
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I would disagree with ur views but at the same time, I respect them.
And I dont see the need to tell people,''listen, this is true and will work and is best''. If it is so, It will just be plain evident and people can see it without being told to. Truth speaks for itself.Khi- Salam. You must consider the fact that many people are ignorant and or deliberately kept ignorant by the media so that they have to be warned and it is out duty as believers to do so. Why otherwise do you think GOD sent messengers?
And we all believe in Quran. But I guess, Our interpretations and understandings differ. LIke u believe in Code 19 and RK, I dont, though I believe the Quran.
But its ok to have our differences as long as we respect each other.
Lets pray Allah guides all of us to the truth.Peace to u!
Khi- Ok then heres another difference btw me and you. So you dont believe in Quran Alone then according to me since you would probably believe 9128&129 belongs to Quran. My qs to you is "Did ypu thoroghly study the code-19 miracle before coming to such conclusion?" because if not you might risk missing to believe in something which may result in you being punished by GOD. So all i ask is go and verify it for yourself. Study each and every point. goto www.submissiontv.com and download RKs Great Debate and the others also. GOD Bless!
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Salaamun alaikum Khizar,
Do you believe in code-19 miracle in the Quran and that RK WAS a mssenger of GOD? GOD Bless!
No. I looked into it 7 years ago and rejected all of it by 1999.
Khi- Salam. So then you probably believe in 9128&129 as part of Quran which would make you a non Quran Aloner acording to me. 2ndly did you study each and every point carefully before conclusing such or just skimmed through it and then a person came up pointing out some "errors" to you and you said "thts it, its nonsese"? If the latter is the case i advise you to be more careful.Study each and every point with care. Thats all i can say. In a post "to ming lo..." i mentioned some important websites which i advise you should consider. Last but not least without code-19 the Quran cannot be proven thus your being bent on following Quranic laws is based simply on your heart's feeling rather than rationality. GOD Bless!